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15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Who says it doesn't matter?

Would you prefer to go to college when young or old?  Get that postdoctorate degree so you can be called Dr. ______.  After all, as long as you end up with that degree, does it matter?  Your obit says Dr. _____.  Why not take the courses when you have the time when retired or no longer dating, getting used to your partner, or raising kids?

It certainly does matter if it is not just about the degree to you, but what the degree gives you both in learning experiences while getting it and benefits in opportunities once gotten.

And if you are one who has been educated in some ways and felt the benefits, why wouldn't you be out there letting others know they have the same opportunity to learn and progress in this way now if they choose?

But that goes back to the point about the one and only claim.  It means that the other paths are not correct or false paths.  I should listen to you and your fellow members/missionaries because you believe that you have the best.  The other paths, not so much.  Yet, the implications of this is that the other paths are not what one should follow, correct?  For strait is the gait and narrow is the way .....   Just own that the one and only claim has not so pleasant implications for the non-believer.  The non-believer is on the wrong path because following the one and only is the right path, etc., etc.  The non-believer will survive even though some "mormons" some where believe they have the only true church on the face of the earth.

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20 minutes ago, Exiled said:

But that goes back to the point about the one and only claim.  It means that the other paths are not correct or false paths.

 

No, it doesn't.  What it means is that for now there are also less direct paths that intersects with the officially designated path when it gets to the point where it becomes the only path.  Think google maps, just a perfected form...lots of ways to go often without dead ends.  Sometimes even lots of intersections.  The marked out path isn't the only way to get to your destination until you get relatively close to it.  But if you choose to take a different route, you may hit more delays or have to cover more ground than you would if you took the main route.

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48 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

No, it doesn't.  What it means is that for now there are also less direct paths that intersects with the officially designated path when it gets to the point where it becomes the only path.  Think google maps, just a perfected form...lots of ways to go often without dead ends.  Sometimes even lots of intersections.  The marked out path isn't the only way to get to your destination until you get relatively close to it.  But if you choose to take a different route, you may hit more delays or have to cover more ground than you would if you took the main route.

Once you are past the point where it becomes one "mormon" path, there aren't other correct paths, right. You, yourself, stated above that the spaghetti eventually gives way to one path, the one and only true path.  Or am I misreading the words? So, it's really not that big of a deal if I stay away from activity?

Are you next going to say that the one true path only comes into view after death? Is that your next response?  Are you a closet universalist?

So, again, if there are many paths and you cannot say, for some reason, that the "mormon" path is the one and only, why does it matter if I stay outside of the church that I thought was extremely boring, filled full of busy work and a burden financially?  I guess I should thank you for giving me something to say when my family gives me the "loving" condemnation for no longer being an active part of their group.  I'll just use the Google maps analogy and say in the end we are all going to make it. I'll just have a little extra money and extra time, etc. in this life.

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1 hour ago, Exiled said:

I am always open to evidence and if something new comes, I will definitely look at it.

Free of confirmation bias regarding what constitutes "evidence "?

How do you define that?

What objective evidence do you have for your moral values?

Because that's the sort of thing we're talking about here what gives you meaning in life. It's not about facts or things that you can weigh and measure. Religion is not supposed to be science regardless of what some people think. Religion is inherently about subjective feelings and how you define your life. It is not about facts about how how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

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47 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Once you are past the point where it becomes one "mormon" path, there aren't other correct paths, right. You, yourself, stated above that the spaghetti eventually gives way to one path, the one and only true path.  Or am I misreading the words? So, it's really not that big of a deal if I stay away from activity?

Are you next going to say that the one true path only comes into view after death? Is that your next response?  Are you a closet universalist?

So, again, if there are many paths and you cannot say, for some reason, that the "mormon" path is the one and only, why does it matter if I stay outside of the church that I thought was extremely boring, filled full of busy work and a burden financially?  I guess I should thank you for giving me something to say when my family gives me the "loving" condemnation for no longer being an active part of their group.  I'll just use the Google maps analogy and say in the end we are all going to make it. I'll just have a little extra money and extra time, etc. in this life.

The only one path at all to exaltation likely happens in Spirit Prison, not mortality.

Two issues...staying away from activity knowing eventually you intend to come back is a sign of what is most important to you (and it is not living the gospel if you accept it as true), so by choosing to stay away now, you are choosing to nurture that part of you.  Perhaps that will be what drives your final choice, so in the end you don't come back but stay away.

Second, you lose out on all the benefits/blessing of discipleship when you do not act as Christ's disciple.  If those don't matter to you, no big deal, but if you don't want them now, why would you anticipate wanting them later?

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4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If this life is really just a holographic simulation (no harm, no foul), none of that matters.  Once we get through the matrix, we are all exalted.  Right?

“Scientists Confirm That Reality is an Illusion - Our 3D Universe Is A Hologram,” May 4, 2012, online at     
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qngieHWZXcM .

Kevin Loria, “ Neil deGrasse Tyson thinks there's a 'very high' chance the universe is just a simulation,” Business Insider, April 22, 2016, online at http://finance.yahoo.com/news/neil-degrasse-tyson-thinks-theres-130300649.html .

Ethan Siegel, “Are Space, Time, And Gravity All Just Illusions?” Forbes, Oct 4, 2017, online at https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/868a5d8d-9ef8-3d2d-9a41-d8f4f80aba0c/ss_are-space%2C-time%2C-and-gravity.html .

And isn't that what the Buddha learned while sitting under the Bodhi Tree -- that reality is just an illusion (Maya)?

 

 

Our perceptions make up everything we know about the universe.

No way around it 

So in some sense everything we know IS a kind of "simulation "! All we know is what we perceive not what is.

So yes Buddha was right!

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4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Then perhaps you have not considered these statements:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

In all of this, obedience to authority is not an end in itself, but a means to an end.  That particular end is not something we can achieve on our own.  But the end that upon which all the law stands.

(My most detailed exploration of how the Joseph Smith urges us to Position 9 in the Perry Scheme is here:

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/sophic-box-and-mantic-vista-a-review-of-deconstructing-mormonism/

And my "Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience" essay does not refer to the Perry Scheme.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

"...Man is, that he might have JOY"

Note it doesn't say "objective knowledge based on empirical evidence"

Yes it IS about feelings in the heart!

How can so many miss that?

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8 hours ago, changed said:

To me, the celestial kingdom is best for all.  The most glorious ending would be everyone together forever.  I could never be happy in heaven if I knew others were suffering in hell.  I do not understand how anyone would be happy without being together with everyone.  

But they are not "suffering" in Hell; they are in heaven. 

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9 hours ago, changed said:

Saying people would be happy in lower degrees of glory tome is like sitting in a castle, saying others would be happy in the slums.  I do not understand how anyone  can be filled with love for others (which is one definition of God), while also saying they do not want to live eternally with everyone, and do not wish what is best for everyone.  

To me, the celestial kingdom is best for all.  The most glorious ending would be everyone together forever. 

The error here is that you're thinking of the Celestial Kingdom as a "place" or a "thing" like a reward.  It is not.  Think of it as a career.  Is there any one career that is best for everyone?  Thinking of it in terms of today's world, one could easily say that everyone wants the highest paying job with the least work and fewest headaches.  Seems to be the pattern.  But, no.  Many people would go crazy without having a lot of work to do.  Many would also feel quite empty inside not being able to feel like they are actively contributing to society in some way.  There are all sorts of things that make people happy.  Doctors pay more than school teachers.  But many wouldn't be able to handle the long hours and the constant stress.  Is that really best for everyone?

Instead, it would be more accurate to say that one is a better person who would "fit" in the Celestial Kingdom.  But if they are not that kind of person, they would feel very much like they didn't belong.  And they would not.  They would also not be as "good" as those whom the Savior judges to be worthy of the Celestial.

9 hours ago, changed said:

 I could never be happy in heaven if I knew others were suffering in hell.  I do not understand how anyone would be happy without being together with everyone.  

Again, you're thinking in terms of rewards.  This time think of it in terms of choices.

You're basically saying: I cannot choose God's blessings while I knew others voluntarily refused to accept His blessings. -- IOW, if others choose to deny God, I must deny God as well. This is literally what you're saying. 

The scriptures tell us that even God weeps at those who sin.  Celestial beings feel no pain  except for the sins of others.  But there is obviously some counterbalance.

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5 hours ago, changed said:

The atonement makes everyone feel loved, but does not impart wisdom.  I could give someone an "A" for a test or a class they did not deserve or earn, could "forgive" them for not studying, but that does not help them learn the material and would be counterproductive as an example.  Let them take the class again, give them more time, more tries at it until they understand the material without anyone else's help - this seems a more reasonable approach.  

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the atonement and exaltation.  The atonement is what makes perfect wisdom and personal growth possible.   

For example, what if the unavoidable consequence of a wrong answer on a test was to be eternally expelled from school?  No more chances.  If you fail once, it is all over...forever!  You see, the atonement does not remove all consequences of bad behavior, instead it conditionally removes the insurmountable consequences, making it possible to have second, third, and fourth...etc. chances.  We still have to learn the material through our own hard work and diligence.  Exaltation is something we learn through work and experience through the guidance and mercy of a heavenly mentor.  It is not a twinkling of the eye experience that happens after death where we suddenly have all knowledge and power of deity.  No, we have to grow into it. The atonement simply makes that growth possible by removing all insurmountable consequences of sin.

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6 hours ago, changed said:

I love Jesus as well.  I also love the idea of reincarnation - life after life until a spirit is refined and comes to a full knowledge and wisdom - infinite lives, infinite number of times to fall and stand back up again.  

The atonement makes everyone feel loved, but does not impart wisdom.  I could give someone an "A" for a test or a class they did not deserve or earn, could "forgive" them for not studying, but that does not help them learn the material and would be counterproductive as an example.  Let them take the class again, give them more time, more tries at it until they understand the material without anyone else's help - this seems a more reasonable approach.  

This would be reasonable if independence were God´s goal. While nuances can be argued, in Mormonism independence seems at least a significant part of the goal. In traditional Christianity, it is not.

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4 hours ago, Exiled said:

But that goes back to the point about the one and only claim.  It means that the other paths are not correct or false paths.  I should listen to you and your fellow members/missionaries because you believe that you have the best.  The other paths, not so much.  Yet, the implications of this is that the other paths are not what one should follow, correct?  For strait is the gait and narrow is the way .....   Just own that the one and only claim has not so pleasant implications for the non-believer.  The non-believer is on the wrong path because following the one and only is the right path, etc., etc.  The non-believer will survive even though some "mormons" some where believe they have the only true church on the face of the earth.

Yes, it does mean except that the wrong path is usually better then no path. I say this based on having to hike through forests and jungles with no path.

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6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You know, I'm leaning reincarnation and many lives to get it right, haha. Never would have gone there a few years ago. But it sounds better than staying pregnant and never communicating with my children, like a goddess would do. Lower case because I don't know if I believe there is one. The church has pretty much nixed any contact with her anyway. 

As an outsider, I do not find your interest in reincarnation very surprising. To an extent Mormonism includes reincarnation or something similar to it, and the logic that supports its reason in Mormonism would support it out of Mormonism as well. The First Estate is one life, one´s performance in which determines/explains/influences one´s place in the next life - The Second Estate. The Second Estate even includes a ¨forgetting¨ of the previous life/estate, and one´s performance in it determines/explains/influences one´s place in the next life - The Third Estate. Only here, in the Third Estate, is the series of reincarnation ended but replaced with a single immortal life in which eternal progression (with success and failure but without sin?) eventually results in the student´s receiving an A because they earned it, eventually. @changed

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

The error here is that you're thinking of the Celestial Kingdom as a "place" or a "thing" like a reward.  It is not.  Think of it as a career.  Is there any one career that is best for everyone?  Thinking of it in terms of today's world, one could easily say that everyone wants the highest paying job with the least work and fewest headaches.  Seems to be the pattern.  But, no.  Many people would go crazy without having a lot of work to do.  Many would also feel quite empty inside not being able to feel like they are actively contributing to society in some way.  There are all sorts of things that make people happy.  Doctors pay more than school teachers.  But many wouldn't be able to handle the long hours and the constant stress.  Is that really best for everyone?

Instead, it would be more accurate to say that one is a better person who would "fit" in the Celestial Kingdom.  But if they are not that kind of person, they would feel very much like they didn't belong.  And they would not.  They would also not be as "good" as those whom the Savior judges to be worthy of the Celestial.

Again, you're thinking in terms of rewards.  This time think of it in terms of choices.

You're basically saying: I cannot choose God's blessings while I knew others voluntarily refused to accept His blessings. -- IOW, if others choose to deny God, I must deny God as well. This is literally what you're saying. 

The scriptures tell us that even God weeps at those who sin.  Celestial beings feel no pain  except for the sins of others.  But there is obviously some counterbalance.

While I agree with you and others about how we end up where we ¨fit¨ or have chosen and think it is an important truth that changed´s view seems to need reminding of, in Mormonism, there is definitely a significant aspect of ¨reward¨. While the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial are places where one can have ¨careers¨ as you put it, there are absolute limits on whether or not you interact with Jesus (the Terrestrial Limit) and Heavenly Father (the Celestial Limit).

While there are other LDS definitions of damnation, this is the damnation that so many non-LDS care about - whether they live with God forever or not. How many sincere and devout non-LDS Christians will end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom forever banished by Heavenly Father? What comfort is there in the material of Terrestrial Kingdom that can make up for the eternal loss of the Father? Does it make such a difference between Outer Darkness and the Terrestrial Kingdom?

[There are more or less answers to these questions (that assume that Mormonism is true). It would seem many assumptions about how ¨they must not really have wanted Heavenly Father (at all)¨ would have to be made. Some talk about how the beauty and pleasures of each kingdom are derivatives of Heavenly Father, while technically true, would be certainly lacking. In a similar vein, some talk about Jesus being some level of Heavenly Father, while a better ¨portion¨, leads to some disturbing issues - not least of which would be the objectifying of Heavenly Father, that he is exchangeable.]

But, nonetheless, the reward is there.

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10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

One of the pitfalls of thinking that God has claimed that he has a true Church on the earth; one that has the authority to act in his name and seal his ordinances on both earth and in heaven is that ergo all other churches and religions are false.

Perhaps someone has already addressed, but didn't Joseph Smith say that God told him that all other religions were false?

Here's the quote I found:

Quote

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

That seems pretty clear -- all other churches and religions are false. It's also pretty harsh, claiming that the leaders of other faiths are corrupt hypocrites.

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2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps someone has already addressed, but didn't Joseph Smith say that God told him that all other religions were false?

Here's the quote I found:

That seems pretty clear -- all other churches and religions are false. It's also pretty harsh, claiming that the leaders of other faiths are corrupt hypocrites.

To be fair it is targeted more at creeds and “those professors” could be specifically referring to specific religious leaders trying to convince Joseph. In addition corrupt does not exclusively mean evil. Corrupted stuff is pure stuff gone wrong. The word “Corrupt” did not have an automatic connection with cronyism and kickbacks like it does today. That being said it still does mean they are all wrong and I do not want to softpedal that.

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17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps someone has already addressed, but didn't Joseph Smith say that God told him that all other religions were false?

Here's the quote I found:

That seems pretty clear -- all other churches and religions are false. It's also pretty harsh, claiming that the leaders of other faiths are corrupt hypocrites.

I can show scripture what supports the position I have stated. To me, the meaning of false is without authority - that they have been created by men. Corrupt hypocrites - yeah, I have seen those not only in other Christian churches and other religions, but my own church also. I suspect you have too - McCarrick comes immediately to mind.

There is a single source of truth in the world - all truth comes from God regardless of where it is found. 

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The error here is that you're thinking of the Celestial Kingdom as a "place" or a "thing" like a reward.  It is not.  Think of it as a career.  Is there any one career that is best for everyone?  Thinking of it in terms of today's world, one could easily say that everyone wants the highest paying job with the least work and fewest headaches.  Seems to be the pattern.  But, no.  Many people would go crazy without having a lot of work to do.  Many would also feel quite empty inside not being able to feel like they are actively contributing to society in some way.  There are all sorts of things that make people happy.  Doctors pay more than school teachers.  But many wouldn't be able to handle the long hours and the constant stress.  Is that really best for everyone?

Instead, it would be more accurate to say that one is a better person who would "fit" in the Celestial Kingdom.  But if they are not that kind of person, they would feel very much like they didn't belong.  And they would not.  They would also not be as "good" as those whom the Savior judges to be worthy of the Celestial.

Again, you're thinking in terms of rewards.  This time think of it in terms of choices.

You're basically saying: I cannot choose God's blessings while I knew others voluntarily refused to accept His blessings. -- IOW, if others choose to deny God, I must deny God as well. This is literally what you're saying. 

The scriptures tell us that even God weeps at those who sin.  Celestial beings feel no pain  except for the sins of others.  But there is obviously some counterbalance.

You have no proof of anything you're saying, only a belief.

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11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

So it is better that instead of allowing each to choose for themselves that God does everything in his power to bring everyone back to him? Whose plan is that? What is the purpose of Exaltation? Is anyone prevented from from entering into Exaltation?

We do not choose what family we are born into, we do not choose our name, our country, our education.  Given the choice in this world, most would choose freedom, education.  As is, most choose marriage, choose to have children, most love their children, love their parents etc.

Only a "small flock" would want to be with their families?  would want a soul mate?  Turn on the radio - most songs are written about people trying to find their soul mate.  Most people seek after love - not a little flock - most people.  Show me someone who does not claim to want love - they will be in the minority.

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Have you really never met someone who's definition of happiness was completely different than your's?  I don't understand thinking that, with all the diversity we have right now, after death we are all going to magically morph into people who all like the same things and want to live the exact same way.

From my perspective, and looking around at all the people I interact with every day, it only makes sense that not everyone will want to be in the Celestial kingdom.  

You look around and it's easy to see how there are those who find the most happiness with their families, and those who find the most happiness more on their own.  There are those who adore being around children, and those who think that having to be around children for a few hours a day would be the worst thing to ever happen to them.  There are those who LOVE the sociality of the night life, dancing and socializing, and those who would HATE that kind of environment and are happiest at home watching a movie or reading a book.  I just watched a show on Prime a couple of weeks ago about homeless people, and one of the kids on the show (I think he said he was 20) said that he was homeless and lived like he did because that's what he WANTED.  And he was with a whole group of people who wanted the same thing.  One older guy even said that his idea of hell would be living in a home with a white picket fence and a regular job. 

The kingdoms of Glory are not a case of an elite group of people getting to be somewhere special while keeping everyone else out.  God is the one who says who will spend eternity where and He bases His decision on where the person will actually be happiest because they will be in a kingdom who's laws they will be able to happily live.

 

 

So you believe everyone in the CK will be exactly the same?  hmmm...

I do think that most people agree that giving and recieving love is a good thing, most people love those in their families - most people do not live alone by choice.  Again, not a "small flock" - most people in the world hold very similar values and beliefs when it comes to what brings happiness and joy.

Do people here think most people are not interested in being with their children, their parents, their families?  that only a few few people - only a little flock - would want this?

 

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

I was just thinking of this story told by Brad Wilcox that has a little bit to do with this topic.  He tells this story in his "His Grace is Sufficient" talk.

"I know a young man who just got out of prison—again. Each time two roads diverge in a yellow wood, he takes the wrong one—every time. When he was a teenager dealing with every bad habit a teenage boy can have, I said to his father, “We need to get him to EFY.” I have worked with that program since 1985. I know the good it can do.

His dad said, “I can’t afford that.”

I said, “I can’t afford it either, but you put some in, and I’ll put some in, and then we’ll go to my mom, because she is a real softy.”

We finally got the kid to EFY, but how long do you think he lasted? Not even a day. By the end of the first day he called his mother and said, “Get me out of here!” Heaven will not be heaven for those who have not chosen to be heavenly."

I've been in similar situations myself, where I was not in the frame of mind or living the right way to get anything out of a spiritual place.  While others were so happy and excited to be there, I was bored and would have much rather been somewhere else.  And I've been on the flip side of it too, unable to understand how someone could be so unhappy in a place where I had found so much joy. 

Our choices affect our perceptions.  Not everyone will want the same thing after death because not everyone will see things the same way.  Different choices make different people.  If someone has not chosen to follow Christ then that person will be a different person, and want different things, than a person who has chosen to follow Him.

 

 It takes two to tango... I can't aford that? - red flag there are other problems going on at home.  ... mom and dad appear to be split apart - broken family?  and sitting with a bunch of perfect kids from perfect families talking about how wonderful families are is going to help him?  

The kid was not evil, and would have probably enjoyed EFY too if he came from a stable, loving family.  

 

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I view other faiths as potentially bringing others to Terrestrial glory or prepping them for exaltation. God works with everyone. Some people were born into the gospel due to premortal worthiness but we have no way to judge that in the aggregate. Many of the strongest people I know are converts. God does not respect persons but he does respect attempts at righteousness. I do not believe everyone will reach celestial glory. Of course I do not want to live with some others, some people are awful. As an introvert yes, I often like being separa ted from others.

That sounds noble but think through what you are saying. Those who choose hell chose it. Anyone who sincerely wants and seeks happiness will find it. Your approach allows any wicked person to ruin paradise for everyone because they refuse to be happy unless it is on their terms. You are giving hell an absolute veto over heaven and the ability to destroy the happiness of others. We see this in mortality too when we have to sever or limit relationships due to the toxic nature of some people and how they do nothing but spread misery. Your idea of heaven is crying forever that they are getting exactly what they sought?

Those who choose hell chose it???  Most people who are trouble makers are victims.  Easy to blame the victim... easier to blame them than to help them.   I have never met anyone who enjoyed pain and suffering.  No one seeks a life of pain and suffering that I know.

 

Do you believe it is only a very "small" flock who would want an eternal existence filled with love, God, and Jesus?

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I can show scripture what supports the position I have stated. To me, the meaning of false is without authority - that they have been created by men. Corrupt hypocrites - yeah, I have seen those not only in other Christian churches and other religions, but my own church also. I suspect you have too - McCarrick comes immediately to mind.

There is a single source of truth in the world - all truth comes from God regardless of where it is found. 

 

Joseph Smith was a man.  Jesus was the only one who was more than a man, who was perfect, whose words could be trusted.

The original apostles - Thomas doubted, Peter denied, none of them could stay awake - they were constantly wrong, constantly being corrected - I suppose those currently called to "authority" are similar to the original. 

 

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5 hours ago, Exiled said:

Once you are past the point where it becomes one "mormon" path, there aren't other correct paths, right. You, yourself, stated above that the spaghetti eventually gives way to one path, the one and only true path.  Or am I misreading the words? So, it's really not that big of a deal if I stay away from activity?

Are you next going to say that the one true path only comes into view after death? Is that your next response?  Are you a closet universalist?

So, again, if there are many paths and you cannot say, for some reason, that the "mormon" path is the one and only, why does it matter if I stay outside of the church that I thought was extremely boring, filled full of busy work and a burden financially?  I guess I should thank you for giving me something to say when my family gives me the "loving" condemnation for no longer being an active part of their group.  I'll just use the Google maps analogy and say in the end we are all going to make it. I'll just have a little extra money and extra time, etc. in this life.

I agree - looking around, everyone is on a different path.  Even within the Mormon church, everyone has lived a different life, and holds a few unique beliefs based on their unique experiences.  Diversity is the spice of life.  The loving approach is to believe everyone will make it, to agree that a fullness of joy equates to being together forever with everyone.  

 

OneWay.JPG

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9 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Then perhaps you have not considered these statements:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

And this:

In all of this, obedience to authority is not an end in itself, but a means to an end.  That particular end is not something we can achieve on our own.  But the end that upon which all the law stands.

(My most detailed exploration of how the Joseph Smith urges us to Position 9 in the Perry Scheme is here:

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/sophic-box-and-mantic-vista-a-review-of-deconstructing-mormonism/

And my "Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience" essay does not refer to the Perry Scheme.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

I think we've moved from Perry's scheme to Tuckman's - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman's_stages_of_group_development

Tuckman is not interested in character development of the individual of course, but on teams and group cohesion.  These are two different things.  I also like the dependent→independent→interdependent progression models.  

 

Edited by changed

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

You have no proof of anything you're saying, only a belief.

What is any idea about the afterlife, that there is even an afterlife but a belief?

What is your point therefore?

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1 hour ago, changed said:

Only a "small flock" would want to be with their families?  would want a soul mate?  

Who is making a claim it is only a "small flock" besides yourself?

If no one (you put it in quotes, but the search function pulls up only your post using it in this thread), why are you arguing against something no one has claimed here?

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So you believe everyone in the CK will be exactly the same?  hmmm...

There is no reason for you to assume that is what she believes.

You yourself see diversity here as evidence of diversity in the next life.  Why not allow for diversity of desire there as well as here?

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red flag there are other problems going on at home.

I know many happy families whose income is too low to send their kids to things and loving, cooperative parents where the kids first appeal to Mom as they are simply more comfortable talking to her.

Edited by Calm

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