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MustardSeed

Boy Scout article- SA allegations pour in

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21 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I know you do, and that's sad.  Your experiences and mine must have happened on different planets.

That said, I'm not sure I understand what point you're making.  I was making the point that ca could only speak to his own experiences.  He asserts not having seen such things in his experience.  While I'm skeptical because of my own experiences (from the abuse I myself suffered as a tweener, from my years of being the only straight guy in the room, from my paying attention to what people said and say, and etc), there is no way to prove he is not being honest.  But he can, once again I must stress, he can only speak to his own experiences.

To claim there is no bathroom trolling going on is to claim Indians walk in single file because you saw one doing it once.

Perhaps you impute honest motives to self-declared homosexuals  ...  but dishonest motives to heterosexual men?

Not imputing that in a black and white thinking way. I've read research that says heterosexual men are the culprit 90% of the time in cases of sexual abuse. But maybe you've read different research, I'm sure there are some on both sides. In my mind and in my reading/watching/hearing I see a lot more than in the homosexual group. I see a lot of it in religions too. So I think some are going after the wrong group. But that's my opinion, and am open minded enough to be corrected with facts.

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think your pointing the finger at the wrong group. The homosexuals may be looking for love, even the wrong kind, in bathrooms or elsewhere, but your putting them in the category of being pedophiles instead of just being interested in an adult to have sex with. Or correct me if wrong. 

And to save posts I'll add that I don't think it's this group that is the problem. I've seen more abuse happening amongst the heterosexuals in a religious setting or background, honestly.

I didn't get that at all out of USU's statement. I thought he was speaking about the perspective from experience, no where did he place homosexuals into the pedifile catagory. However, all the pedifiles I have read about, prosecuted, were adult men and most were homosexual or bisexual. 

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

You're absolutely right to share this with us. Thanks for debunking the "single file Indians" assertion.

Do I want to know what the single file Indian assertion Is?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

. I've read research that says heterosexual men are the culprit 90% of the time in cases of sexual abuse

This is inaccurate.  This stat is another of the faulty assumption that any male to female abuse is by heterosexuals (whose actual orientation is best defined men attracted to women).  Combining all the stats below, most likely around 25% of cases have heterosexual men as culprits.

It is reported that 1/3 of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by pedophiles (who would not be defined as either having the orientation of homosexuality or heterosexuality because their orientation is pedophilia). (Cited earlier in one of my posts iirc)

Add in juvenile sex offenders and that drops the rate also significantly since 33-40% of offenses are committed by teens.  Accurate estimates need to determine how the approximately 1/3 of remaining offenses committed by adult nonpedophiles are divided between heterosexual males and females and LGBT+ individuals.  I may keep looking, may not.  (This just states female predators are not actually uncommon:  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178916301446 , this describes female offender types as well as others, but doesn't give stats:  https://www.smart.gov/SOMAPI/sec1/ch3_typology.html )

added:  percentage, but possibly quite under reported given other research posted later...combining stats below ballpark about 10% reported abuse by females, this would include both pedophilic and nonpedophilic abuse, so guessing 5% by heterosexuals/LGBT female, leaving about 25% of child s-xual abuse by heterosexual/LGBT men.

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It is estimated that women are the abusers in about 14% of cases reported among boys and 6% of cases reported among girls.

https://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/statistics-on-perpetrators-of-csa

Unfortunately even though juvenile sex offenders are a big part of the problem, like pedophiles who are trying not to offend, they aren't getting the right type of support to prevent further crimes.  Instead more often how they are treated by law makes it worse.

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In late 2016, Letourneau addressed the TEDMED conference in Palm Springs, California, and presented some startling facts. "What do you think the average age is of a typical child sexual abuser? 24? 34? 44?" she asked. "In fact, the peak age for engaging a prepubescent child in harmful or illegal sexual behavior is 14." And that child convicted of a sex offense, the one we are convinced will grow up to be an adult predator? The likelihood that he or she will ever be convicted of a second offense is just 2 to 3 percent, according to Letourneau's research. She told the audience, "Instead of focusing on prevention, we focus nearly all our effort on punishment. ... We know that incarcerating or detaining children, even briefly, reduces the likelihood that they'll graduate from high school and increases the likelihood they will commit more crimes. My research shows that sex offender registration and public notification do nothing—nothing—to prevent juvenile sexual offending or improve community safety in any way. Instead, these policies cause harm."

https://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2018/spring/children-who-are-child-sexual-abusers/

Came across one very hopeful stat assuming report rate of abuse has kept at least stable, though I would assume they have actually increased given the mandating and greater visibility...

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The number of identified incidents of child sexual abuse decreased at least 47% from 1993 to 2005-2006.3,4 

http://www.d2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/all_statistics_20150619.pdf

Edited by Calm

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11 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Do I want to know what the single file Indian assertion Is?

I was making the point about personal perceptions being a poor basis upon which to make assertions that make no sense in the real world.  Ca had claimed there was no longer any bathroom trolling going on.  In response, another poster spoke to his experiences being ogled and/or sexually predated in bathroom stalls through holes drilled in the stall walls; and the poster moreover referred to warning signs in public buildings referring oglees and predatees to campus cops, who were particularly ineffectual.

Ca's naked assertion of it never happening was pretty weak.  And that's all there really is to it.

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It is important to understand types and causes of child s-xual offenders in order to enact effective prevention laws which are sadly lacking at this time.

https://www.smart.gov/SOMAPI/sec1/ch3_typology.html

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Finkelhor (1984) provides the most comprehensive definition of child sexual abuse: Child sexual abuse is the use of force/coercion of a sexual nature either when the victim is younger than age 13 and the age difference between the victim and the perpetrator is at least five years, or when the victim is between 13 and 16 and the age difference between the victim and perpetrator is at least 10 years. In this definition, coercion does not necessarily imply a direct threat. Child sexual abusers often develop a relationship with a child to manipulate him or her into compliance with the sexual act, which is perhaps the most damaging component of child sexual abuse (John Jay College, 2004). Indeed, a defining feature of child sexual abuse is the offender's perception that the sexual relationship is mutual and acceptable (Groth, 1983). 

Differences Between Child Sexual Abusers and Rapists

Child sexual abusers have been difficult to classify as they vary in economic status, gender, marital status, ethnicity and sexual orientation. Child sexual abusers are often characterized as exhibiting poor social skills, having feelings of inadequacy or loneliness, having greater sexual problems or being passive in relationships (Cortoni & Marshall, 2001; Groth, 1979; Maniglio, 2012; Marshall, 1993; Whitaker et al., 2008). They differ from rapists with respect to thought processes and affect, and often describe their offending behaviors as uncontrollable, stable and internal; whereas rapists attribute their offenses to external, unstable and controllable causes (Garlick, Marshall & Thorton, 1996). Indeed, Whitaker et al.'s (2008) meta-analytic review of 89 studies indicates child sexual abusers have fewer externalizing behaviors compared to rapists. Child sexual abusers display deficits in information-processing skills and maintain cognitive distortions to deny the impact of their offenses (e.g., having sex with a child is normative; Hayashino, Wurtele & Klebe, 1995; Whitaker et al., 2008). In contrast, rapists display distorted perceptions of women and sex roles, and often blame the victim for their offense (O Ciardha, 2011; Polaschek, Ward & Hudson, 1997). With respect to affect, child sexual abusers assault to alleviate anxiety, loneliness and depression. Rapists typically assault as a result of anger, hostility and vindictiveness (Polaschek, Ward & Hudson, 1997). Many of these characteristics have been incorporated into the typologies of rapists and child sexual abusers (Camilleri & Quinsey, 2008; Groth, 1979; Knight & Prentky, 1990).

Pedophilic and Nonpedophilic Distinction

The most important distinction among child sexual abusers is whether they are pedophilic or nonpedophilic, because pedophilia has been shown to be a strong predictor of sexual recidivism (Hanson & Bussiere, 1998). Not all individuals who sexually assault children are pedophiles. Pedophilia consists of a sexual preference for children that may or may not lead to child sexual abuse (e.g., viewing child pornography), whereas child sexual abuse involves sexual contact with a child that may or may not be due to pedophilia (Camilleri & Quinsey, 2008). According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 2013), a diagnosis of pedophilia requires an individual to have recurrent, intense and sexually arousing fantasies, urges or behaviors directed toward a prepubescent child (generally 13 years of age or younger) over a period of at least six months; to have acted on these urges or to be distressed by them; and to be at least 16 years old and at least five years older than the child victim. The World Health Organization, which publishes the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (WHO, 2010) defines Pedophilia as a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal by an adult. 

Types of Child Sexual Abusers

One of the first typologies was formulated from the delineation of pedophilic and nonpedophilic child sexual abuse. Groth, Hobson and Gary (1982) classified child sexual abusers based on the degree to which the sexual behavior is entrenched and the basis for psychological needs (fixated-regressed typology). The fixated offender prefers interaction and identifies with children socially and sexually (Simon et al., 1992). These individuals often develop and maintain relationships with children to satisfy their sexual needs (Conte, 1991). In contrast, regressed child sexual abusers prefer social and sexual interaction with adults; their sexual involvement with children is situational and occurs as a result of life stresses (Simon et al., 1992). The majority of fixated child sexual abusers are individuals who sexually assault male children who are not related; regressed child sexual abusers often consist of incest offenders or offenders who sexually assault female adolescents (Priest & Smith, 1992). The fixated-regressed typology has been incorporated into the current models of sexual offending (e.g., self-regulation model; Ward & Hudson, 1998, 2000) discussed later in this chapter.

Victim Characteristic Distinction

Of the traditional models, the victim gender-relationship typology is the only model that has demonstrated clinical utility because it accounts for much of the variability in child sexual abuse, addresses treatment issues and is related to recidivism (Camilleri & Quinsey, 2008). The gender of the victim remains an important distinction among child sexual abusers because this factor has been shown to be a strong predictor of sexual reoffense (Hanson & Bussiere, 1998), although exactly what can be predicted is unclear. One study showed that male child sexual abusers who assault males are twice as likely to recidivate in comparison to offenders who abuse females (Quinsey, 1986). Yet, contradictory findings have also been reported in the literature. Several studies found that child sexual abusers who sexually assault females report over twice as many victims as same-sex child offenders (Abel et al., 1981). More recent studies have shown that mixed-gender child sexual abusers reported the highest number of victims (Cann, Friendship & Gozna, 2007; Stephens, Seto, Goodwill & Cantor, 2016), offenses (Simons & Tyler, 2010) and the highest rates of risk for reoffense (Abel et al., 1988; Kleban, Chesin, Jeglic & Mercado, 2013). However, after controlling for number of victims, mixed-gender offenders were not more likely to sexually recidivate compared to child sexual abusers who offend against males and females exclusively (Stephens et al., 2016). Overall, small sample sizes and reliance on official records have limited the extensive investigation of this group.

Extrafamilial child sexual abusers are more likely to be diagnosed with pedophilia and are often unable to maintain adult relationships.

Within this typology, child sexual abusers are also categorized based on their relationship to the victim (i.e., intrafamilial or extrafamilial). According to Rice and Harris (2002), intrafamilial child sexual abusers (i.e., incest offenders) are less psychopathic, less likely to report male victims, cause less injury, are less likely to exhibit pedophilia and have lower sexual and violent recidivism rates. Intrafamilial child sexual abusers are less likely to have antisocial tendencies (e.g., criminal history, substance abuse) and atypical sexual interests (Seto, Babchishin, Pullman & McPhail, 2015). Seto et al. (2015) also found intrafamilial offenders display fewer offense-supportive beliefs and interpersonal deficits than extrafamilial child sexual abusers. Extrafamilial child sexual abusers are more likely to be diagnosed with pedophilia (Seto et al., 2015) and are often unable to maintain adult relationships (Prentky et al., 1989). Although intrafamilial child sexual abusers substitute a child for an adult sexual partner, they often maintain their adult sexual relationships (Miner & Dwyer, 1997). Studies have reported that intrafamilial child sexual abusers have fewer victims as compared to extrafamilial sexual offenders (Miner & Dwyer, 1997) and lower rates of sexual recidivism (Stephens et al., 2016). These studies relied primarily on official records (i.e., criminal convictions), which do not take into account the possibility that many incest offenders may have undisclosed victims to whom they are not related. Nonetheless, the gender/relationship typology is the most frequently used and researched typology of child sexual abusers.

 

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Female offenders (rather disturbing info in general):

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

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Finally, there is reason to fear that abuse by female perpetrators is under-reported:

Tellingly, researchers have found that victims who experience childhood sexual abuse at the hands of both women and men are more reluctant to disclose the victimization perpetrated by women (Sgroi & Sargent, 1993). Indeed the discomfort of reporting child sexual victimization by a female perpetrator can be so acute that a victim may instead inaccurately report that his or her abuser was male (Longdon, 1993).

Male victims may experience pressure to interpret sexual victimization by women in a way more consistent with masculinity ideals, such as the idea that men should relish any available opportunity for sex (Davies & Rogers, 2006). Or, sexual victimization might be reframed as a form of sexual initiation or a rite of passage, to make it seem benign. In some cases, male victims are portrayed as responsible for the abuse. Particularly as male victims move from childhood to adolescence, they are ascribed more blame for encounters with adult women.

And according to the paper, when female abusers are reported, they are less likely to be investigated, arrested, or punished compared to male perpetrators, who are regarded as more harmful.

 

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46 minutes ago, Calm said:

You're right on this, and your previous post as well, it's a difficult thing to do to pinpoint exactly who is doing the perpertrating the most. Different sides to the equation for sure. The report I read about the heterosexual males being at 90% does sound suspect. But it was there, along with another site that said it was primarily homosexuals doing all the perp'g. And mixing in the female ratio in is sadly true. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, USU78 said:

Another poster spoke to his experiences being ogled and/or sexually predated in bathroom stalls ...

Both in and out, unfortunately. Using the urinal was a risky enterprise, and sometimes merely walking in to use a wash basin or blow my nose was unwise as well. As I noted above, it was a very 'progressive' place.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Around 2000.

I've had a number of other experiences since that time that would also challenge California Boy's assertion, but nowhere else has the issue been as pervasive or as casually acknowledged and tolerated. (The signs were engraved plastic.) But I was studying in a city that prided itself on its 'progressiveness'.

That was almost 2 decades ago. That was 7 years before the iphone was invented.   Long before apps and internet was widely used.  Social media wasn't even thought of.  20 years ago, gay relationships were still illegal and could land you in jail for even dancing with someone of the same sex.  To say that gays were marganialized is an understateent.  Even though they were Americans, they had no civil rights back then.  Everything was underground and illegal.  If you want to assert this was going on 19 years ago, ok.  But do you see the total lack of context in todays world?

Edited by california boy

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Which I pointed out in my posts.  However, the continuing problem is that the gay community engages in that two to three times as much as so-called straight people (not even sure what that means).  Perhaps over time the stats will go down as the gay community is mainstreamed.

Good to hear how San Francisco is dealing with the problem.  My solution is to compare how different cities deal with the problem, some successfully, some not, and go from there.  We actually have stats on the nature of the problem in different cities.  The problem of homelessness is interwoven with high crime rates, drug use, mental illness, and disease.  One has to address those problems simultaneously.  Ignoring one simply makes progress elsewhere nearly impossible.  Then too, many of the homeless are veterans who are ignored by the Veterans Admin.

One huge step would be to legalize (or decriminalize) drugs and regulate them like any other pharmaceuticals.  Oakland just decriminalized hallucogenic mushrooms, for example.  Years ago, when the arch-conservative Bill Buckley came out in favor of legalization of drugs, he was treated like a pariah.  We need to address our problems in practical rather than ideological ways.

ETA:  Here is the latest on SF dealing with mentally ill drug users, https://www.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-may-force-treatment-185329921.html .

I think comparing what one city does with the circumstances in another city, while may be helpful, often does not provide any magic cure.  For example, what SLC does may not work in San Francisco.  It snows in Utah and is freezing cold at night.  Of course the homeless what shelters.  That isn't the case in San Francisco.  Part of San Francisco's problem is good weather year round.   Drugs are definitely part of the problem.  But some people really freak out when San Francisco proposes drug programs.  

A big part of the homeless problem is the mentally ill.  Since Regan closed down the mental hospitals in California when he was govenrnor, it put them out on the street, and I believe actually started this whole homeless lifestyle.  Before that there were very few homeless, camping on the streets.  In the end, it is a complexed issue that I have yet to see any simple solutions to.  Every mayor in the past decade has run on platforms of addressing the homeless issuee including the current on.  San Francisco would like nothing more than to have this problem completely disappear.   Being a more liberal city has little to do with the will to solve this problem.  

Prrobably enough of. a derail, but thanks for your thoughts.

Edited by california boy

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think comparing what one city does with the circumstances in another city, while may be helpful, often does not provide any magic cure.  For example, what SLC does may not work in San Francisco.  It snows in Utah and is freezing cold at night.  Of course the homeless what shelters.  That isn't the case in San Francisco.  Part of San Francisco's problem is good weather year round.   Drugs are definitely part of the problem.  But some people really freak out when San Francisco proposes drug programs.  

A big part of the homeless problem is the mentally ill.  Since Regan closed down the mental hospitals in California when he was govenrnor, it put them out on the street, and I believe actually started this whole homeless lifestyle.  Before that there were very few homeless, camping on the streets.

Actually two governors closed down the large state mental hospitals, both with the best of intentions, and each equally foolish.  Poof, there are no more crazy people.  Plus, they wanted to save some money.  That left law enforcement to deal with the mentally ill, a very expensive mistake, to put it mildly.  We already incarcerate more per capita than any country in the world, many of them needing drug and mental health treatment -- look at them line up for their meds three or more times a day.  I have watched them in lockup smearing their feces on the walls of their cells.  Yup, we are certainly an enlightened civilization . . .

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 In the end, it is a complexed issue that I have yet to see any simple solutions to.  Every mayor in the past decade has run on platforms of addressing the homeless issuee including the current on.  San Francisco would like nothing more than to have this problem completely disappear.   Being a more liberal city has little to do with the will to solve this problem.  ........................

There is not as yet any real will to solve the problem.  It may take the Black Death to get the politicians out of the dead zone.

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5 hours ago, california boy said:

That was almost 2 decades ago. That was 7 years before the iphone was invented.   Long before apps and internet was widely used.  Social media wasn't even thought of.  20 years ago, gay relationships were still illegal and could land you in jail for even dancing with someone of the same sex.  To say that gays were marganialized is an understateent.  Even though they were Americans, they had no civil rights back then.  Everything was underground and illegal.  If you want to assert this was going on 19 years ago, ok.  But do you see the total lack of context in todays world?

Good point CB! I can't imagine how difficult the gay person has had it. Now hopefully they will be able to have healthier relationships. 

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20 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Both in and out, unfortunately. Using the urinal was a risky enterprise, and sometimes merely walking in to use a wash basin or blow my nose was unwise as well. As I noted above, it was a very 'progressive' place.

Could you please offer your thoughts on what to me looks like magical thinking behind the "forget everything that happened before 2015 in matters homosexual?"  Why are we supposed to ignore our own experiences?  What really has changed?

Is it aspirational?

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14 hours ago, california boy said:

That was almost 2 decades ago. That was 7 years before the iphone was invented.   Long before apps and internet was widely used.  Social media wasn't even thought of.  20 years ago, gay relationships were still illegal and could land you in jail for even dancing with someone of the same sex.  To say that gays were marganialized is an understateent.  Even though they were Americans, they had no civil rights back then.  Everything was underground and illegal.  If you want to assert this was going on 19 years ago, ok.  But do you see the total lack of context in todays world?

This sounds like exaggeration. Can you provide links to actual cases of people being arrested in the U. S. for merely dancing together?

’Everything, was underground and illegal? While there are antiquated (and downright bizarre) laws of every stripe on the books in pretty much every state, can you provide statistics or some kind of documentation that it was common to be arrested for being gay, for dancing, etc over the last 20 years?

Ellen DeGeneres debuted her talk show in 2003, and it was well-known she was gay well before that. How is this possible if everything has been “illegal and underground” all that time?

Gay people had absolutely no civil rights if any kind whatsoever the past 20 years? That’s how you’ve phrased it.

I have a brother who has been with the same partner for at least 25 years, always openly. No living underground, no arrests for dancing or being gay, for either one of them. And that’s just one example out of thousands.

Yes, gay people face discrimination at times. But so do millions of people who aren’t gay. As a Jew, I experienced such things as a certain group telling that they weren’t going to stop until  every last Jew had been wiped off the face of the earth. 

Why the need for exaggeration?

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On 6/2/2019 at 12:47 PM, MustardSeed said:

https://apple.news/AvQCoMsRsRbiGT8Wm1mOaEw

I’m pretty sure the scout program will go bankrupt. I’m glad we pulled out already. 

This article came out in TIME yesterday. 

Not to worry, I'm sure those open-minded corporate donors will continue helping out

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