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MustardSeed

Boy Scout article- SA allegations pour in

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45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

My source is Donald B. Cozzens, The Changing Face of the Priesthood: A Reflection on the Priest’s Crisis of Soul (Collegeville, Minn: Liturgical Press, 2000), 111-119.  Moreover, Cozzens states, the profile of many priestly pedophiles is that of a focused sociopath who feels no guilt and is only sorry when he is caught.  Cf. Cozzens, Sacred Silence: Denial and the Crisis in the Church (Collegeville, Minn: Liturgical Press, 2002).  He was speaking of pedophilia.  Whether these priests had also had sex with their seminary teachers as adults or later with fellow priests or monks is not included in the data.  However, what I also said about adult RC seminaries being "gay brothels" still stands (citing Michael Rose).

This is such a sad thing.  The RCC does so much good in the world, and is betrayed so profoundly by the men you are referencing.

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

So Boy Scouts.... 

I asked my son last night if he’d had any negative experiences in scouts.  It’s an important conversation as scary as it is to initiate. 

I'm grateful that my husband went on nearly all of my sons boy scout trips, he was a leader in the YM's. But there was this time that another leader handled things badly and that is when after the campout, he went over to the fire and pee'd on it to put it out while they were all in their vehicles waiting and the YM saw the whole thing. Pretty minor I guess, and maybe a guy thing, but my husband didn't approve at all. 

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I guess I am more confident that we are each human. T'were we each ripped from our current situation and put in the worst of situations, I would expect that almost every one of us could be broken and operate on on only our most fundamental needs at any cost. I hope none of us are put in that situation, but many of our brothers and sisters around the world are not so lucky. I am thinking of the Lost Boys of Sudan or the child warriors of Africa. 

It is for these people that might not handle their humanity well, that I'm glad they have the church to keep them in line! 

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

This is such a sad thing.  The RCC does so much good in the world, and is betrayed so profoundly by the men you are referencing.

Yes, most priests are very sincere.  The LDS Church even uses Catholic Relief when we don't have our own people on the ground.

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5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said earlier, it’s not a matter of having developed self control. I simply lack the desire or inclination. The very idea, in fact, is abhorrent to me.

So you were born that way? Your nature is fixed? There's simply nothing you could do to change?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But there was this time that another leader handled things badly and that is when after the campout, he went over to the fire and pee'd on it to put it out while they were all in their vehicles waiting and the YM saw the whole thing. Pretty minor I guess, and maybe a guy thing, but my husband didn't approve at all. 

There's another way of putting a fire out? I have a feeling your husband wouldn't approve of me at all ...

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was citing, not editorializing, but your comments are thought-provoking and ought to give us all pause.  We need to ask whether we learned anything from the ever so swift rate of HIV infection in San Francisco during the 1980s.  What sort of sex-obsessed culture aided in that fast transmission, and why were so many gay men reluctant to shut down the bathhouses? Or to curb their lack of reasonable protection or restraint in pursuing their traditional life-style?  Indeed, I lived in San Francisco during the 1960s and nothing Bell & Weinberg came up with is surprising to me.  That RC priests and monks were heedlessly pursuing the same gratification by predation on youth seems to me no surprise at all, and we now know that it was a worldwide phenomenon.

For example, at one time gay men frequented public park restrooms -- cf. Donald P. Warwick, “Tea Room Trade: Means and Ends in Social Research,” The Hastings Center Studies, I (1973):27-38, for discussion of one male prostitute’s annual performance of about 3,000 oral sex acts (fellatio) in just such a public restroom.   Horatio Alger, for example, used both the YMCA and homes for newsboys as his venues for  procurement of young boys for sex, after he had to leave his ministry of a Unitarian congregation in Brewster, Massachusetts, for molesting two young boys (“Biographies: The Lives of Horatio Alger, Jr.,” at www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/cinder/bio.htm ); Gary Scharnhorst and Jack Bales, The Lost Life of Horatio Alger, Jr. (Bloomington: Indiana Univ. Press, 1985) – with the pickup of young boys by affluent young men being a standard plot-line in his novels.  Cf. John D. Gustav-Wrathall, Take the Young Stranger by the Hand: Same-Sex Relations and the YMCA (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998). 

Even after direct experience with mass HIV death, rather than simply cruising the streets in search of young male prostitutes, gay men now prefer “cruising” gay chat rooms on the internet in search of “quick turnaround sex” (statistics are astonishing, and gay & bisexual males “are two to three times as likely as heterosexual men to seek sexual partners online”).  Public health officials are very worried about the consequences of unbounded gay and bisexual promiscuity – “a sexual superhighway” undoubtedly leading to increases in HIV, antibiotic-resistant syphilis, HPV, hepatitis, tuberculosis, etc.  Is "hook-up culture" really what we want or need?

 

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was citing, not editorializing, but your comments are thought-provoking and ought to give us all pause.  We need to ask whether we learned anything from the ever so swift rate of HIV infection in San Francisco during the 1980s.  What sort of sex-obsessed culture aided in that fast transmission, and why were so many gay men reluctant to shut down the bathhouses? Or to curb their lack of reasonable protection or restraint in pursuing their traditional life-style?  Indeed, I lived in San Francisco during the 1960s and nothing Bell & Weinberg came up with is surprising to me.  That RC priests and monks were heedlessly pursuing the same gratification by predation on youth seems to me no surprise at all, and we now know that it was a worldwide phenomenon.

For example, at one time gay men frequented public park restrooms -- cf. Donald P. Warwick, “Tea Room Trade: Means and Ends in Social Research,” The Hastings Center Studies, I (1973):27-38, for discussion of one male prostitute’s annual performance of about 3,000 oral sex acts (fellatio) in just such a public restroom.   Horatio Alger, for example, used both the YMCA and homes for newsboys as his venues for  procurement of young boys for sex, after he had to leave his ministry of a Unitarian congregation in Brewster, Massachusetts, for molesting two young boys (“Biographies: The Lives of Horatio Alger, Jr.,” at www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/cinder/bio.htm ); Gary Scharnhorst and Jack Bales, The Lost Life of Horatio Alger, Jr. (Bloomington: Indiana Univ. Press, 1985) – with the pickup of young boys by affluent young men being a standard plot-line in his novels.  Cf. John D. Gustav-Wrathall, Take the Young Stranger by the Hand: Same-Sex Relations and the YMCA (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998). 

Even after direct experience with mass HIV death, rather than simply cruising the streets in search of young male prostitutes, gay men now prefer “cruising” gay chat rooms on the internet in search of “quick turnaround sex” (statistics are astonishing, and gay & bisexual males “are two to three times as likely as heterosexual men to seek sexual partners online”).  Public health officials are very worried about the consequences of unbounded gay and bisexual promiscuity – “a sexual superhighway” undoubtedly leading to increases in HIV, antibiotic-resistant syphilis, HPV, hepatitis, tuberculosis, etc.  Is "hook-up culture" really what we want or need?

Hi Robert,

The editorializing was in extrapolating beyond what Bell and Weinburg wrote.  They specifically stated that their survey was not representative.  The percentage numbers were specific to the subset of survey participants, not the whole if the gay community in San Francisco, and most certainly not across the nation. 

Furthermore,  you provided these stats to counter calms assertions as if a subset of the San Francisco gay community in 1970 was representative of homosexuals in general. 

I don't doubt that there was a hedonistic or sex obsessed subculture and the impact that had on the aid epidemic.  That really had no bearing on the points that calm raised. 

Three same point exists with the Catholic priests.... which you've acknowledged in your response to USU78.

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I just finished taking the Youth Protection Training from the Boy Scouts of America.

One of the things that they kept emphasizing is the process of "grooming", that abusers often follow. We should always watch out for this "Grooming"

According to the program, I seem to be guilty of "grooming" my children.

1.  I often am in one on one situations with them

2.  I engage in physical contact with them (Hugs, tickling, etc)

3.  I am constantly trying to get their mother to like me.

4.  I often console them when they are sad, or depressed. 

5.  I buy them presents and take them out to eat (sometimes in one on one situations)

 

All of these are "grooming" behaviors and all of these are would have to be reported (theoretically) if they happened during Boy Scouts.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you were born that way? Your nature is fixed? There's simply nothing you could do to change?

I don’t remember a time in my life when sexually assaulting or murdering someone ever appealed to me, even as an idle fantasy. 

And why would I want to do anything to change that? 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you were born that way? Your nature is fixed? There's simply nothing you could do to change?

I have always found the best way to avoid sin is to assume that one is capable of it and take steps to a avoid situations that would lead me down the path.

"I would never do that" is always dangerous.

Reminds me of the apostles response to the Jesus's prophecy of betrayal. "Is it I?"

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34 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There's another way of putting a fire out? I have a feeling your husband wouldn't approve of me at all ...

He's really a guys guy, but I guess it just looked bad in front of the boys...maybe they were young scouts, don't know why he thought it was inappropriate. I guess you'd have to be there. 

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21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He's really a guys guy, but I guess it just looked bad in front of the boys...maybe they were young scouts, don't know why he thought it was inappropriate. I guess you'd have to be there. 

I don't think our boys know any other way of extinguishing a fire either ...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t remember a time in my life when sexually assaulting or murdering someone ever appealed to me, even as an idle fantasy. 

Fine, but the gospel message invites people to be changed in their very natures. We celebrate when a person who's never before found the things of God appealing experiences a 'mighty change of heart'. In your opinion, is this process only possible one way?

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you were born that way? Your nature is fixed? There's simply nothing you could do to change?

 

39 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have always found the best way to avoid sin is to assume that one is capable of it and take steps to a avoid situations that would lead me down the path.

"I would never do that" is always dangerous.

Reminds me of the apostles response to the Jesus's prophecy of betrayal. "Is it I?"

But Hamba was not asking about “taking steps to avoid” committing murder or sexual assault. He was asking about the opposite: deliberately changing one’s predisposition not to do those things. Again, I ask: Why would anyone want to change that aspect of his nature? Isn’t that a good thing, one that ought to be preserved? 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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39 minutes ago, cacheman said:

...........The editorializing was in extrapolating beyond what Bell and Weinburg wrote.  They specifically stated that their survey was not representative.  The percentage numbers were specific to the subset of survey participants, not the whole if the gay community in San Francisco, and most certainly not across the nation. 

I did not extrapolate, Prof Bergin did, using Bell & Weinberg as his source.  Having lived there, and noting that San Francisco was a gay Mecca (gay men flocked there from all over the USA), it seemed to me that Bell & Weinberg were correct in general.  However, that is by no means proof.

39 minutes ago, cacheman said:

Furthermore,  you provided these stats to counter calms assertions as if a subset of the San Francisco gay community in 1970 was representative of homosexuals in general. 

I don't doubt that there was a hedonistic or sex obsessed subculture and the impact that had on the aid epidemic.  That really had no bearing on the points that calm raised. 

Three same point exists with the Catholic priests.... which you've acknowledged in your response to USU78.

I simply don't accept the tail wagging the dog rationale that was adopted to be politically correct, any more than I would allow the claim that homosexual pedophilia qua pederasty was not the norm in Classical Greece -- actually a decadent perversion of the Greek ideal of the Heroic age.  There are no gay encounters in Homer, for example, and homosexuality only comes into dominance during post-Heroic times when the Hellenistic ideal of Paideia by the mentor turned to the taking of sexual advantage of youths – the homosexual betrayal of implicit trust leading inevitably to meaningless, empty, sterile sexuality, along with a heavy dose of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).   Psychiatrist Jonathan Shay discusses all this in his Achilles in Vietnam (1994), and Odysseus in America (2002).  Compare Werner Jaeger, Paideia: The Ideals of Greek Culture, 3 vols., trans. G. Highet (Oxford Univ. Press, 1945), from the 2nd German ed., I:194-195, on the widespread nature of Dorian boy-love among the Greek aristocracy.  Jaeger describes this sexual phenomenon in terms of the positive social function it supposedly performed in redirecting adolescent tendencies to rebel.  An approach in line with the thought of the International Boylove Day (IBLED), and the North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).  The late poet Allen Ginsberg howled his approval.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Fine, but the gospel message invites people to be changed in their very natures. We celebrate when a person who's never found the things of God appealing before experiences a 'mighty change of heart'. In your opinion, is this process only possible one way?

Nothing in the gospel message invites or persuades me to commit a sin that I’m already disinclined to commit in the first place. For the third time, I ask: Why would I want to change any aspect of my nature that disposes me <not> to commit a certain sin? And why should anyone celebrate such a change? 

Sometimes, crimes are referred to as arising from means, opportunity and motive. What motive would there be for one to take on an appetite for murder or sexual assault where no such appetite had been present? 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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17 hours ago, Rain said:

Years ago our credit card number was stolen and a new card was made and the thief then spent a lot of money on it. The bank told us it was most likely skimmed at a restaurant by waitstaff. I asked what I could do about it. They said to always go to the register with it. So we did.

I found that many were confused when I asked to go to the register with them. Some registers were even in the kitchen. So I explained what had happened and I was taking precautions.

At that point a high number would get upset or offended and say they wouldn't steal, to which I explained that I had never given my card to someone I thought I couldn't trust. Who would do that? Yet it still happened to me. And that mollified most.

After awhile I finally figured out to say, "I never let my visa out of my sight" (where I can watch over it) and suddenly people were instead saying, "that's smart".

That's really what most women are saying about being in some situations. We are not thinking  "this is a potential predator because all men are". It's saying, "I never let my body out of my/safety's sight" and like the wait staff has told me dozens of times, "that's smart".

 

I’m glad that you don’t view every restaurant employee as a thief waiting for an opportunity — just as I’m glad you don’t view every male as a sexual predator waiting for an opportunity. 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Nothing in the gospel message invites or persuades me to commit a sin that I’m already disinclined to commit in the first place.

In the gospel message? No, of course not. But as the Book or Mormon makes explicit, we are being invited and enticed by both the gospel message and its exact opposite.

Quote

For the third time, I ask: Why would I want to change any aspect of my nature that disposes me <not> to commit a certain sin?

I personally don't think you should want to. But you've repeatedly stated that you couldn't change in that way. I think the scriptures make it clear that that's a false position to take ... and as Danzo pointed out, a potentially risky one, in large part since all kinds of people who didn't intend one thing get there anyway by 'small and simple means'.

Beyond that, I find it inherently unfair to invite other people to change their natures (for the better) unless I'm willing to admit that I'm fully capable of changing my current nature too. When I was working in America, I had a Cub Scout in my den who told me he couldn't control his anger because he was 'born that way' and he couldn't change his basic nature. If I'm not willing to let him get away with that, then I can't make similar claims in regards to myself. Either human nature can be changed, or it can't. The message of Christ is that it can, and that message of necessity includes both for the better and for the worse.

As 2 Nephi 2 makes clear, agency is a package deal. It must include both options.

Quote

And why should anyone celebrate such a change? 

I can think of entire host who would celebrate such a change. And in fact, they tirelessly work to encourage and oversee such a change.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I just finished taking the Youth Protection Training from the Boy Scouts of America.

One of the things that they kept emphasizing is the process of "grooming", that abusers often follow. We should always watch out for this "Grooming"

According to the program, I seem to be guilty of "grooming" my children.

1.  I often am in one on one situations with them

2.  I engage in physical contact with them (Hugs, tickling, etc)

3.  I am constantly trying to get their mother to like me.

4.  I often console them when they are sad, or depressed. 

5.  I buy them presents and take them out to eat (sometimes in one on one situations)

 

All of these are "grooming" behaviors and all of these are would have to be reported (theoretically) if they happened during Boy Scouts.

 

Yes.  If you were tickling my son, doing one on one lunch dates and buying him presents, I would intervene. 

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Yes.  If you were tickling my son, doing one on one lunch dates and buying him presents, I would intervene. 

What about your interactions with your own children? Why shouldn't I intervene? Aren't  parents  the ones who are statically most likely to abuse?

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56 minutes ago, Danzo said:

What about your interactions with your own children? Why shouldn't I intervene? Aren't  parents  the ones who are statically most likely to abuse?

Ok.  If you don’t recognize the difference in alarming behavior between a parent doing any of those things and a person outside the family then I don’t know what else to say. 

Not everyone who does those things is molesting children.  But someone besides a parent doing those things is treading on inappropriate boundaries and everybody but you is suspect.  

:)

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5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Ok.  If you don’t recognize the difference in alarming behavior between a parent doing any of those things and a person outside the family then I don’t know what else to say. 

Not everyone who does those things is molesting children.  But someone besides a parent doing those things is treading on inappropriate boundaries and everybody but you is suspect.  

:)

I fear you may be showing your US cultural  prejudice. In many cultures it is perfectly  acceptable for people other than parents to show affection for children. 

Showing affection for children does not equal abuse.

Limiting  affection to parents  does prevent abuse. Parents are one of the biggest group of abusers.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I fear you may be showing your US cultural  prejudice. In many cultures it is perfectly  acceptable for people other than parents to show affection for children. 

Showing affection for children does not equal abuse.

Limiting  affection to parents  does prevent abuse. Parents are one of the biggest group of abusers.

 

 

Ok

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3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Fine, but the gospel message invites people to be changed in their very natures. We celebrate when a person who's never before found the things of God appealing experiences a 'mighty change of heart'. In your opinion, is this process only possible one way?

I guess that's why we get some members that aren't as perfect as you'd think. In fact there are a lot of members who need the hospital of faith I guess. Glad the church could be there to deter some evil doings. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was citing, not editorializing, but your comments are thought-provoking and ought to give us all pause.  We need to ask whether we learned anything from the ever so swift rate of HIV infection in San Francisco during the 1980s.  What sort of sex-obsessed culture aided in that fast transmission, and why were so many gay men reluctant to shut down the bathhouses? Or to curb their lack of reasonable protection or restraint in pursuing their traditional life-style?  Indeed, I lived in San Francisco during the 1960s and nothing Bell & Weinberg came up with is surprising to me.  That RC priests and monks were heedlessly pursuing the same gratification by predation on youth seems to me no surprise at all, and we now know that it was a worldwide phenomenon.

For example, at one time gay men frequented public park restrooms -- cf. Donald P. Warwick, “Tea Room Trade: Means and Ends in Social Research,” The Hastings Center Studies, I (1973):27-38, for discussion of one male prostitute’s annual performance of about 3,000 oral sex acts (fellatio) in just such a public restroom.   Horatio Alger, for example, used both the YMCA and homes for newsboys as his venues for  procurement of young boys for sex, after he had to leave his ministry of a Unitarian congregation in Brewster, Massachusetts, for molesting two young boys (“Biographies: The Lives of Horatio Alger, Jr.,” at www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/cinder/bio.htm ); Gary Scharnhorst and Jack Bales, The Lost Life of Horatio Alger, Jr. (Bloomington: Indiana Univ. Press, 1985) – with the pickup of young boys by affluent young men being a standard plot-line in his novels.  Cf. John D. Gustav-Wrathall, Take the Young Stranger by the Hand: Same-Sex Relations and the YMCA (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998). 

Even after direct experience with mass HIV death, rather than simply cruising the streets in search of young male prostitutes, gay men now prefer “cruising” gay chat rooms on the internet in search of “quick turnaround sex” (statistics are astonishing, and gay & bisexual males “are two to three times as likely as heterosexual men to seek sexual partners online”).  Public health officials are very worried about the consequences of unbounded gay and bisexual promiscuity – “a sexual superhighway” undoubtedly leading to increases in HIV, antibiotic-resistant syphilis, HPV, hepatitis, tuberculosis, etc.  Is "hook-up culture" really what we want or need?

 

I am interested in why you posted this.  Are you trying to indicate that sex outside of marriage doesn't happen in the straight world.  Or that given the amount pf sex going on in high school, that a high percentage of straight people would respond that they never had sex with a minor?  Do you remember the AshleyMadison scandle that outed thousnads of straight people looking to cheat on their wives and husbands including a number of emails with byu.ed?  Do you not think that there is a lot of straight guys that try to hook up with as many women as possible?  If you went to a bar in any major city, on any given night, do you think there would be a chance that at least one couple would leave the bar with the intent of having sex?  Or every night straight men are cruising the streets looking for prostitutes?

So let me ask exactly why you wanted to post this

1. to vilify gay people?

2. To point out that while straight people are often immoral, gay people are worse so they deserve our scorn.

3. Lets remember to paint all gay people with the same broad brush because if you are gay, you must also fit into the statistics your presented

4. If there was a disease that killed straight people for having sex with multiple partners and there was no cure for it, not all that many straight people would die?

Edit to add.  You do realize that some of the data you are using is 35 years old and the most recent you site is 20 years old.  Does that say anything about grasping for anything you can throw out in hopes to paint the worse possible picture about gays?  Look, I get that gay men probably do have more sex than straight men.  But they are two men.  And in general, men are way more willing to have sex than women.  Is this some kind of insightful information you have come up with?  Isn't there something about glass houses and throwing rocks when straight people start to vilify gays as having more sex than straight people?  And just where would you suggest someone who was gay 35 years ago find another gay person, when going to some underground bar could get you thrown into jail just for dancing with someone?  

One more edit.  Have you ever considered the role religion played in these statistics from 35 years ago.  This is when Spencer W Kimball was telling church members that just being gay was an abomination.  When religion in geneeral was telling every gay person they were going to hell.  Just being who you are was immoral.  If you are going to hell anyway, is there really any reason why you should not have sex with anyone you wanted?  A lot of the gay patterns we see today can be directly connected with the way "followers of Christ" treated gays in the past.  God may very well judge gays for acts of immorality.  But I think some may be surprised at how harsly they msy be judged for their behavior.  You posting 35 year old data isn't exactly helping to change those attitudes.  

Edited by california boy

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