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Boy Scout article- SA allegations pour in

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We need to be very careful not to imagine that everyone is a predator.

I hear you.  However, as a mother in real time, that is exactly what I have to do. I have to assess every single situation my child is in for potential predators.

I can think of six off hand situations I am close to; three of them my children.  Those are just the ones come to the light.  If I expanded that to include, 'heard about' but still close enough ie not news reports but community, then it's quite a bit more. 

If you have 100 bishops (decided to go with that instead of RC), and 8 or ten are offending, that is HORRENDOUS.  That is a massive trend, not an anomaly.  If it was 1 in 5000, say, then I might breathe a little easier.

Again, I'm actually worried about the men, to be trapped by such a compulsion, and nobody in society can help them.

Edited by Maidservant
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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unlike the RCC, our bishops aren't self selected, I see it as highly unlikely we are at 1%, let alone 10%.

Our bishops aren’t self-selected, either. Priests are recommended by bishops and then there is a lengthy process culminating in the Pope choosing. If a bishop consecrates (ordains) someone as a bishop without Papal authority then they are both automatically excommunicated. 

Priests aren’r fully self-selected, too. The discerning of a vocation requires multiple people in addition to the prospective priest. It also takes a few years to complete seminary prior to ordination. As I recall, Rory’s son was discerning for awhile and he ultimately did not receive holy orders. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Our bishops aren’t self-selected, either. Priests are recommended by bishops and then there is a lengthy process culminating in the Pope choosing. If a bishop consecrates (ordains) someone as a bishop without Papal authority then they are both automatically excommunicated. 

Priests aren’r fully self-selected, too. The discerning of a vocation requires multiple people in addition to the prospective priest. It also takes a few years to complete seminary prior to ordination. As I recall, Rory’s son was discerning for awhile and he ultimately did not receive holy orders. 

My apologies for sloppy writing.  I meant to compare to priests and pastors who volunteer and at times go through extensive training to become ministers in their faith.  I was thinking of just the first step of volunteering or claiming a vocation/call to a ministry.  I agree the process for becoming priests isn't simply "hey, I want to be a priest".  There are some definite benefits in the way the RCC handles vocation.  I can think of comparable situations for priests such as school teachers (while a predator might seek out such a situation, it isn't an automatic acceptance), but I am trying to think of a similar situation to LDS bishops to project likely percentages...which has some self selection in the sense of choosing to live to a certain standard or lifestyle that would lead to a higher likelihood of being chosen, but then such volunteers get 'drafted'.  I would imagine the latter standard would be closer to percentages of predators in the general population.

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I am thinking that we have a staggering problem of a significant number of men, at all anywhere, who are pedophiles; and for the number who are acting on it, there must be 3 times as many who experience the sensations but don't act. 

I am wondering if in the future people with this tendency towards pedopilia might declare that it is something they are born with the, same as homosexuals claim. 
Will they start asking to be recognized and accepted in our culture also?  I do believe there may be a genetic predisposition to some of these conditions that these people are born with.
I very much doubt however that our society will allow them to act on it,  but we might have to recognize it as a real condition that needs to be treated and controlled.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I am thinking that we have a staggering problem of a significant number of men, at all anywhere, who are pedophiles; and for the number who are acting on it, there must be 3 times as many who experience the sensations but don't act.

So far only site I have seen estimating this and I am not that secure in it as at least one paragraph seems to have messed up numbers, going lower instead of higher (but I am sleep deprived so the problem could be my brain), so with caution...

It estimates probably about 1 in 10 pedophiles become abusers.  Estimate of pedophiles is around 3-5% in males, less for females.

Of population in total, about .17% (not 17%, but 1/100 of that) of the general population are possibly child abusers (not all child abusers are pedophiles, estimates are only a third are).

https://www.csaprimaryprevention.org/prevalence-of-abusers-among-pedophiles.html

Edited by Calm

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3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

we might have to recognize it as a real condition that needs to be treated and controlled.  

Are you saying we don't now?  Not sure I understand you.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, JAHS said:

am wondering if in the future people with this tendency towards pedopilia might declare that it is something they are born with the, same as homosexuals claim. 

While research shows some hereditary and prenatal indications, there are correlations that may be contributing factors that seem unlikely to be genetic, such as number of head injuries before age 13 and being abused in childhood.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/#!po=63.5802

https://doctor.ndtv.com/living-healthy/pedophilia-a-disorder-not-a-crime-1800175

This article has 1% of male population has pedophilia and half of child abusers are not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/opinion/pedophilia-a-disorder-not-a-crime.html

Quote

A second misconception is that pedophilia is a choice. Recent research, while often limited to sex offenders — because of the stigma of pedophilia — suggests that the disorder may have neurological origins. Pedophilia could result from a failure in the brain to identify which environmental stimuli should provoke a sexual response. M.R.I.s of sex offenders with pedophilia show fewer of the neural pathways known as white matter in their brains. Men with pedophilia are three times more likely to be left-handed or ambidextrous, a finding that strongly suggests a neurological cause. Some findings also suggest that disturbances in neurodevelopment in utero or early childhood increase the risk of pedophilia. Studies have also shown that men with pedophilia have, on average, lower scores on tests of visual-spatial ability and verbal memory.

Edited by Calm

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think we need to be worried about the rampant rise of an attitude that every man is a potential predator and guilty until proven innocent. I actually find that insulting. Think of how the spread of such an attitude could impact your sons, brothers, husband, father and others you love. 

That's what I'm saying.  I agree that the idea that they are 'predators' is the wrong word.  I'm saying--what is going on that this happens a lot, and where is the help.  This is not about guilty.  This is about healing.  I want them healed, not condemned.

This does not describe an 'attitude' I am holding.  It will be my responsibility if I get it wrong--and I have.  I don't want to live in a world where I can't trust.  But I don't get that privilege.  I have to pay attention to signs and act accordingly. Like if someone called me on the phone and said I won the lottery and what is my social security number, please?  To NOT participate in a sketchy situation doesn't mean I think that all my male family members are scammers.  To know that if a man invites my son over for a sleepover (which has happened--maybe it was innocent?) and for me to say NO doesn't mean that I think all my male family members have problems in that area.

It also doesn't mean I hate the person.  In fact, I do have more than one male family member, who I love deeply, who I think struggle with the 'inappropriate feelings' because of what they have gone through and I absolutely don't want to condemn them, but I know that's all they have ahead of them (condemnation) because our society isn't ready yet to be compassionate and effective.  The one who has acted is often the one who got acted upon (not always); so the cycle goes on.

Saying it is happening a lot and too much, is NOT the same thing as saying that it is everyone.  Those are two different numerical values.  I didn't say everyone.  I'm saying every situation I put my children in, I have to pay attention.  It makes me appreciate deeply when the trust I do extend is met by very good men.  Saying that I have to pay attention as a parent doesn't follow that I think every man or woman is guilty. Is the alternative for me to stop paying attention so that I'm not "spreading the guilt of the innocent"?  In my opinion (that's all it is), you are the one who took what I was saying to a conclusion it does not have (which is your right for an opinion also, of course).

The Boy Scout article had the number in the thousands; that is for Boy Scouts only.  Percentages are of little value to me when we've already hit a number like that. That is thousands of men we can't help?  I think we can.  It's too much.  They are hurting.

The idea that I would love my male family members only if they weren't caught in these chains--I would love them all.  I know you really didn't say this, but I'm indulging also in extending a conclusion as well.

Edited by Maidservant
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30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you saying we don't now?  Not sure I understand you.

That's what I'm saying.  At least not without deep shame that would be a barrier to it.

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5 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

know that's all they have ahead of them (condemnation) because our society isn't ready yet to be compassionate and effective

Our laws are NOT set up to encourage people to get help.

 

Quote

The Virtuous Pedophiles website is full of testimonials of people who vow never to touch a child and yet live in terror. They must hide their disorder from everyone they know — or risk losing educational and job opportunities, and face the prospect of harassment and even violence. Many feel isolated; some contemplate suicide. The psychologist Jesse Bering, author of “Perv: The Sexual Deviant in All of Us,” writes that people with pedophilia “aren’t living their lives in the closet; they’re eternally hunkered down in a panic room.” 

While treatment cannot eliminate a pedophile’s sexual interests, a combination of cognitive-behavioral therapy and medication can help him to manage urges and avoid committing crimes. 

But the reason we don’t know enough about effective treatment is because research has usually been limited to those who have committed crimes.

Our current law is inconsistent and irrational. For example, federal law and 20 states allow courts to issue a civil order committing a sex offender, particularly one with a diagnosis of pedophilia, to a mental health facility immediately after the completion of his sentence — under standards that are much more lax than for ordinary “civil commitment” for people with mental illness. And yet, when it comes to public policies that might help people with pedophilia to come forward and seek treatment before they offend, the law omits pedophilia from protection.

The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 prohibit discrimination against otherwise qualified individuals with mental disabilities, in areas such as employment, education and medical care. Congress, however, explicitly excluded pedophilia from protection under these two crucial laws. 

It’s time to revisit these categorical exclusions. Without legal protection, a pedophile cannot risk seeking treatment or disclosing his status to anyone for support. He could lose his job, and future job prospects, if he is seen at a group-therapy session, asks for a reasonable accommodation to take medication or see a psychiatrist, or requests a limit in his interaction with children. Isolating individuals from appropriate employment and treatment only increases their risk of committing a crime.

There’s no question that the extension of civil rights protections to people with pedophilia must be weighed against the health and safety needs of others, especially kids. It stands to reason that a pedophile should not be hired as a grade-school teacher. But both the A.D.A. and the Rehabilitation Act contain exemptions for people who are “not otherwise qualified” for a job or who pose “a direct threat to the health and safety of others” that can’t be eliminated by a reasonable accommodation. (This is why employers don’t have to hire blind bus drivers or mentally unstable security guards.) 

The direct-threat analysis rejects the idea that employers can rely on generalizations; they must assess the specific case and rely on evidence, not presuppositions. Those who worry that employers would be compelled to hire dangerous pedophiles should look to H.I.V. case law, where for years courts were highly conservative, erring on the side of finding a direct threat, even into the late 1990s, when medical authorities were in agreement that people with H.I.V. could work safely in, for example, food services.

 

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37 minutes ago, Calm said:
42 minutes ago, JAHS said:

we might have to recognize it as a real condition that needs to be treated and controlled.  

Are you saying we don't now?  Not sure I understand you.

Not sure what I meant there either.  I guess I am comparing it to homosexuality which we don't treat for or control, but for this condition we have to do that. 

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4 hours ago, Maidservant said:

You know, between the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, teachers at school, the COJOLDS, family abuse . . . I am thinking that we have a staggering problem of a significant number of men, at all anywhere, who are pedophiles; and for the number who are acting on it, there must be 3 times as many who experience the sensations but don't act.  What is going on?  I have deep compassion for this actually--not to allow it, obviously, but we need a new way of approaching this so that men and boys can heal.  It is obviously NOT an anomaly any more and we can't anomalize it act like we can just handle a case here or there punitively and there, we did it.  Something is going ON.

There is nothing going on that is any different from 100 years ago. People are essentially the same.  The difference is we live in the Information Age where everyone knows everything about everybody, and the are lots more people . . . LOTS!  So, hold your head up, trust in God rather than the arm of flesh, and your worries will evaporate . . . theoretically.

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We can't really stop paedophilia driven behavior until people can freely talk about it.  People can't freely talk about it because society is terrified of it.  And rightly so.  

Shameful behavior is driven by shame, which is driven by secrecy, which is driven by shame.  This circular reasoning keeps us in a cycle of abuse.  I don't have answers.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Pedophiles go where they have opportunity. So, the ¨Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, teachers at school, the COJOLDS, family abuse ¨ as well as family-filled neighborhoods, daycare, children´s sports and extracurricular programs, etc. will be where you find them. Keeping this in mind not only helps keep one from thinking/worrying that pedophiles are ¨everywhere¨ and also helps parents and leaders to be able to focus their efforts in order to be more effective in any organization/activity in which adults/teenagers are leading/teaching/instructing youth/children.

Edited by Joshua Valentine

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Our laws are NOT set up to encourage people to get help.

Sheepdogs don't tend to care that the coyote is hungry 

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5 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I hear you.  However, as a mother in real time, that is exactly what I have to do. I have to assess every single situation my child is in for potential predators.

I can think of six off hand situations I am close to; three of them my children.  Those are just the ones come to the light.  If I expanded that to include, 'heard about' but still close enough ie not news reports but community, then it's quite a bit more. 

If you have 100 bishops (decided to go with that instead of RC), and 8 or ten are offending, that is HORRENDOUS.  That is a massive trend, not an anomaly.  If it was 1 in 5000, say, then I might breathe a little easier.......................

I guess you missed the point that (unlike RC priests) LDS bishops are not predators self-selecting a bishopric in order to get access to children.  Then too, only about 2 % of males are homosexual, and of those only a very small proportion are predators.  So we are not talking about pervasive tendencies.  "Trust but verify" may no longer seem adequate, but there are manifold rules in place now which make abuse far less likely.  Going to extremes in this is comparable to imagining that all vaccinations cause autism.  In Africa it means that Ebola health workers are being killed merely based on suspicion.  Once a society has lost the basic sense of trust, there is apparently no going back.  What will that mean for the future?  On college campuses just now it  means that fragile students are demanding safe-spaces and the prohibition of an academic environment of free speech and free inquiry -- lest someone's feelings be hurt.  There will be dire consequences for those tendencies, and society will cease to function harmoniously. Indeed, this is already occurring.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Sheepdogs don't tend to care that the coyote is hungry 

But humans aren't coyotes.  They can control and redirect cravings.  Pedophiles can lower the chance of becoming abusers with treatment and lower stres (such if they are not in fear of losing jobs, getting kicked out of their community, being physically harmed).

It is highly unlikely pedophiles chose to have those feelings, biology and trauma are more likely core causes (choosing to nurture or act on them is different).  Providing help for the majority (90% or more) who don't offend so they suffer less because those feelings are controlled makes sense to me because not only is it compassionate, it also lowers risk of harm to children.

Edited by Calm

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

only about 2 % of males are homosexual,

Same sex pedophilia is not the same thing as homosexuality.  It is best to be careful to use clear terminology to avoid confusing them.

Quote

As an expert panel of researchers convened by the National Academy of Sciences noted in a 1993 report: "The distinction between homosexual and heterosexual child molesters relies on the premise that male molesters of male victims are homosexual in orientation. Most molesters of boys do not report sexual interest in adult men, however" (National Research Council, 1993, p. 143, citation omitted).

To avoid this confusion, it is preferable to refer to men's sexual abuse of boys with the more accurate label of male-malemolestation. Similarly, it is preferable to refer to men's abuse of girls as male-female molestation. These labels are more accurate because they describe the sex of the individuals involved but don't implicitly convey unwarranted assumptions about the perpetrator's sexual orientation.

The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

Over the years, this fact has been incorporated into various systems for categorizing child molesters. For example, Finkelhor and Araji (1986) proposed that perpetrators' sexual attractions should be conceptualized as ranging along a continuum – from exclusive interest in children at one extreme, to exclusive interest in adult partners at the other end.

https://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Edited by Calm

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12 minutes ago, Calm said:

But humans aren't coyotes.  They can control and redirect cravings.  Pedophiles can lower the chance of becoming abusers with treatment and lower stres (such if they are not in fear of losing jobs, getting kicked out of their community, being physically harmed).

It is highly unlikely pedophiles chose to have those feelings, biology and trauma are more likely core causes (choosing to act on them is different).  Providing help for the majority (90% or more) who don't offend so they suffer less because those feelings are controlled makes sense to me because not only is it compassionate, it also lowers risk of harm to children.

Well, as I see it, the abused has three choices. He can become a victimizer  himself, he can continue to be a victim, or he can overcome both tendencies and become healthy. Neither victim nor victimizer.

I haven't a clue how many achieve the latter. Too few, I wager. Neither do I know the percentage of pedophiles were themselves abused as children. I suspect a significantly higher number.

Everybody has pain, but no amount of pain, regardless whence it came, justifies predating children. If I can prevent the abuse, I will employ all my strength to accomplish it.

It was instilled in all men of my generation to be the sheepdog protecting the innocent sheep. Ultimately I cannot care that, for example, the coyote was kicked around as a pup. The sheep's safety dwarfs every other consideration.

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