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JLHPROF

Utah - more progressive on LGBTQ issues?

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Posted (edited)

I was at the parade in SLC on Sunday.  It was huge!  I am a member of the Human Rights Campain (HRC) and a proud to be a ally of the  LGBTQ community, and I was blown away by LQBTQ support that I experienced this weekend.

Since JS, all major "revelations"  have come about because of social  pressure: The end of Polygamy and the end of the priesthood racism are two prime examples of external pressure forcing a revelation.   From what I have seen  this weekend,  there is enough momentum that I believe that the church will soon embrace full fellowship of the LQBTQ community and support full Women's rights, including priesthood ordination.  

Edited by sunstoned
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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think it plays on sympathies more than guilt complexes.

You obviously run in better circles than I.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My aunt commented on my FB post that I posted the pic of the parade and I had posted: My first Utah pride parade! Many great and awesome groups spreading the love!. She posted: "Why"

I don't know what to say back. I've had many "loves" and many "likes"... And many nice comments except hers. I just don't know what to think or how to respond. I'm constantly looking at my post for fear my children will something mean to her and then I'll take it down. 

And now your comment! 😫

C'est la Guerre.

It's an approximate quote. If you care to know the speaker, I'll share privately.

Edited by USU78

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45 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Since JS, all major "revelations"  have come about because of social  pressure: The end of Polygamy and the end of the priesthood racism are two prime examples of external pressure forcing a revelation.  

You are only half right.  It's not external social pressure.  It only happens when it's internal.

The Church can withstand outside pressure relatively easily.  But when the commoners no longer consent that's when things seem to change quickly. 

The changes to the garments, the endowment, the recent rapid November policy reversal, the shorter meeting blocks, and yes, polygamy.  ALL primarily following internal pressure, not the world. 

God gives us the revelation were deserve and desire.  Occasionally he might even agree with it.

Quote

From what I have seen  this weekend,  there is enough momentum that I believe that the church will soon embrace full fellowship of the LQBTQ community and support full Women's rights, including priesthood ordination.  

I think you may be compacting the timeline a bit with the word "soon".  Eventually might be better.

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4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We all end up with our peers, I am convinced! That's what the different kingdoms are for. And I don't mean that as a put-down. I would hate feeling like the guy that everyone was staring at because he didn't belong. The whole idea that that could happen for eternity is abhorrent.

I personally love kids and would love to have as many as I can and to shepherd them along the best that I can.

I can't think of anything better than serving my family for eternity. :)

To each his own.

But I'm not much of a fan of big houses.

Who knows if any of that will actually happen. But I love the paradigm. For me it's something to live for, not "to die for". ;)

 

This is an interestig subject.  I have been thinking about starting a thread about it.  Though I havn't started a thread in about 5 years.  I honestly don't see the ppeal of having billions of children.  I love kids as well. I have 5 of them.  Maybe I could handle 10 of them.  But billions?  What I like about my kids is the things we share together, Having fun and interacting with them. Then I don't quite grasp the idea that God knows what is happening to each and every one of His children.  And if He does, what good is that?  And how exhausting would it be to be in the lives of billions of His children all at one time every second of the day?  For me there is a big leap from having 5 children and having billions.  

Would you be interested in telling me how you imagine this all happening for you and just what your eternal future would look like?

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43 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is an interestig subject.  I have been thinking about starting a thread about it.  Though I havn't started a thread in about 5 years.  I honestly don't see the ppeal of having billions of children.  I love kids as well. I have 5 of them.  Maybe I could handle 10 of them.  But billions?  What I like about my kids is the things we share together, Having fun and interacting with them. Then I don't quite grasp the idea that God knows what is happening to each and every one of His children.  And if He does, what good is that?  And how exhausting would it be to be in the lives of billions of His children all at one time every second of the day?  For me there is a big leap from having 5 children and having billions.  

Would you be interested in telling me how you imagine this all happening for you and just what your eternal future would look like?

No.

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5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No.

Ok.  Thanks

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8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You are only half right.  It's not external social pressure.  It only happens when it's internal.

The Church can withstand outside pressure relatively easily.  But when the commoners no longer consent that's when things seem to change quickly. 

The changes to the garments, the endowment, the recent rapid November policy reversal, the shorter meeting blocks, and yes, polygamy.  ALL primarily following internal pressure, not the world. 

God gives us the revelation were deserve and desire.  Occasionally he might even agree with it.

I think you may be compacting the timeline a bit with the word "soon".  Eventually might be better.

Or maybe Wendy? Gotta love her!

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Posted (edited)

Building bridges is considered a nice thing to do, and building any kind of a wall or barrier is considered a not-so-nice thing to do.  While I recognize that, oftentimes, in a way, the way someone speaks of something can be hurtful, we seem, more and more, to be living in a topsy-turvy world where words seem more important than actions. 

Sometimes, it seems as though someone could commit the most atrocious, most heinous, most reprehensible, most unforgivable action imaginable, and many of us would seek to assign some sort of sociological or psychological justification to it: "Well, how he sees the world obviously doesn't reflect reality," we might say, "but if I, too, saw the world the way he sees it, even I might do what he did."  Use the wrong word, on the other hand, or merely express a belief that runs counter to the prevailing social orthodoxy, and out come the pitchforks and the torches!

It's easy to explain why something is "wrong" according to the prevailing social orthodoxy: often, social orthodoxy simply is built on an ad populum scaffolding.  When the "wrong" belief is expressed, simply scoff at it and dismiss it with an airy wave of the hand and say [perhaps with a snort to emphasize the point], "Nobody believes that anymore!"  And then, since we're living in a world where words do much more damage than (even psychologically or sociologically understandable, if reprehensible) actions, reinforce the point by mentioning the truly cardinal sin: "Besides, it's hurtful!"

The very raison d'etre of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution used to be to defend even (and to defend especially) unpopular opinions and beliefs: "I may not agree with what you say or with what you believe, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it or to believe it."  I may or may not agree with absolutely everything someone believes, what he says, or what he does (in fact, if the absolute is the standard, it's virtually certain that I won't), but that doesn't mean I believe he doesn't have a right to get an education, to hold a job, to earn a living, and so on. 

Now, the standard discussed in my previous paragraph has been turned on its head: If, on the other hand, someone simply believes or says the "wrong" thing?  Hound him out of the school where he said it, hound him out of his job, make it so that not only can he not work there, he shouldn't be allowed to work anywhere, destroy his reputation entirely, make it impossible for him to live in "polite" society! ("Ay, there's the rub, innit?!"  After all, impoliteness is the real cardinal sin!)

And when we build what are supposed to be enduring social institutions, such as, e.g., law, on an ad populum scaffolding?  Eventually, we'll end up in precisely the world Martin Niemoller describes:

Quote

 

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Anyone is perfectly welcome to stay silent simply because it's not his ox that's being gored (because, after all, remember: In this world, it's what we say that's the cardinal sin!) but, if he does stay silent, he shouldn't expect anyone else to speak up for him when, finally, it's his ox that is being gored.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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On 6/3/2019 at 6:28 PM, JLHPROF said:

Probably not.  But Utah gets lumped in with that group for better or worse.

I'm torn between liking this article because it shows that Utah isn't out to get that community driving up depression and suicide and ostracizing them.

But at the same time tolerance of sin rapidly becomes embracing sin.  Every single time.

I have been thinking about this last sentence since you posted it a few days ago. I am curious to know of the examples you had in mind when you say 'Every single time.'

 

Also, I am curious to know in your view, where the line of tolerance begins and ends. How do not tolerate sin but allow others to live their lives in a way that isn't impeding them? How do we show love to an individual while not accepting their sins, if they want to let their sins define them?

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On 6/1/2019 at 9:54 AM, JLHPROF said:

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/30/opinions/lgbtq-stories-red-america-united-shades-pride-progress-allen

Interesting article.

Considering all the negative claims about how Utah culture, especially Mormon culture treats LGBTQ citizens apparently we're "more progressive" than evangelical states like those in the South.

Is that representative of a values shift here, or simply evidence that we make a greater effort to show love and understanding even if we consider it immoral.

I there is clear evidence of a value shift and I think it’s encouraging to think that Utah is ahead of some areas of the country.  Although, personally I think the results are definitely mixed with the 2015 exclusion policy and the church’s support of legal cases there still is a strong contingent of people who probably align better with the more conservative areas in the country.  

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On 6/3/2019 at 8:23 PM, Tacenda said:

My aunt commented on my FB post that I posted the pic of the parade and I had posted: My first Utah pride parade! Many great and awesome groups spreading the love!. She posted: "Why"

I don't know what to say back. I've had many "loves" and many "likes"... And many nice comments except hers. I just don't know what to think or how to respond. I'm constantly looking at my post for fear my children will something mean to her and then I'll take it down. 

And now your comment! 😫

 

It may be good to have an answer to the “why?” Just because it’s not the wanted response doesn’t mean it may be a genuine question based from her views and perspectives . And even if it weren’t answering it gently and honestly can help give another perspective that they haven’t fully thought of or integrated in how they view an event like this. It can place a personal touch to what has like been a very abstract experience for this person. 

So for example, if i answered her “why,” i would likely be mentioning supporting close loved ones that mean a great deal to me. I would want them to know that even though we may experience and see the world differently that i value them and all that they are. That i work with people who are LGBT and i know that one of the big changes that helped them move through some experiences of depression and anxiety or low self-worth was learning that those close to them truly would love them no matter what, even when their values diverged or that expression of love/concern wasn’t “perfect.” I know on our straight part, learning how to love others is a sincere part of the second great commandment...and by reaching out and earnestly hearing those around us is likely one of the only ways that we can do so. 

 

For the record I haven’t gone to a gay pride parade. But i’m not opposed to going either. I’m more of a quiet, behind the scenes, sort of ally. 

 

With luv, 

BD

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

It may be good to have an answer to the “why?” Just because it’s not the wanted response doesn’t mean it may be a genuine question based from her views and perspectives . And even if it weren’t answering it gently and honestly can help give another perspective that they haven’t fully thought of or integrated in how they view an event like this. It can place a personal touch to what has like been a very abstract experience for this person. 

So for example, if i answered her “why,” i would likely be mentioning supporting close loved ones that mean a great deal to me. I would want them to know that even though we may experience and see the world differently that i value them and all that they are. That i work with people who are LGBT and i know that one of the big changes that helped them move through some experiences of depression and anxiety or low self-worth was learning that those close to them truly would love them no matter what, even when their values diverged or that expression of love/concern wasn’t “perfect.” I know on our straight part, learning how to love others is a sincere part of the second great commandment...and by reaching out and earnestly hearing those around us is likely one of the only ways that we can do so. 

 

For the record I haven’t gone to a gay pride parade. But i’m not opposed to going either. I’m more of a quiet, behind the scenes, sort of ally. 

 

With luv, 

BD

 

 

 

Thanks BD! Funny story, I did finally answer her "why" with the c/p below, it felt right at the time, to be the best answer. I didn't hear back for about 3 hours and then my daughter commented to her post with, "why ask why?" or something like that. And that's when I went in and had to hide her comment and then I deleted my post with the meme and then hid my aunt's comment of "why", because I knew that it could go bad, because of my kids and their feelings about the church's previous Nov. '15 policy. But I wish I had had your advice before that all went down!! Hope you're doing well, my other daughter is pregnant with a girl! So exciting, and she is 31 and her first child. So excited for the both of you, take care!! :)

xoabk6b6a8231.jpg

Edited by Tacenda

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks BD! Funny story, I did finally answer her "why" with the c/p below, it felt right at the time, to be the best answer. I didn't hear back for about 3 hours and then my daughter commented to her post with, "why ask why?" or something like that. And that's when I went in and had to hide her comment and then I deleted my post with the meme and then hid my aunt's comment of "why", because I knew that it could go bad, because of my kids and their feelings about the church's previous Nov. '15 policy. But I wish I had had your advice before that all went down!! Hope you're doing well, my other daughter is pregnant with a girl! So exciting, and she is 31 and her first child. So excited for the both of you, take care!! :)

xoabk6b6a8231.jpg

Love this.

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On 6/1/2019 at 11:54 AM, JLHPROF said:

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/30/opinions/lgbtq-stories-red-america-united-shades-pride-progress-allen

Interesting article.

Considering all the negative claims about how Utah culture, especially Mormon culture treats LGBTQ citizens apparently we're "more progressive" than evangelical states like those in the South.

Is that representative of a values shift here, or simply evidence that we make a greater effort to show love and understanding even if we consider it immoral.

Or it may be the realization that LGBTQ person are not immoral.

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On 6/1/2019 at 3:44 PM, JLHPROF said:

It can't.

Doctrinally the whole premise of marriage runs counter to SSM.

But that may not stop "progress".

It is progress that people are critically thinking and realizing the shackles and control that so called "revealed religion" places on them. They see the so called "revalators" get so much wrong and contradict themselves time after time. 

In other words we are seeing a revolution in free thinkers and it is liberating since its pretty clear that living a life of submission to dogma that is fallacious if not false is no good way to live.

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is progress that people are critically thinking and realizing the shackles and control that so called "revealed religion" places on them. They see the so called "revalators" get so much wrong and contradict themselves time after time. 

In other words we are seeing a revolution in free thinkers and it is liberating since its pretty clear that living a life of submission to dogma that is fallacious if not false is no good way to live.

Alma 30:13-16, 22.

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Tacenda, you can send her a private message with BD's suggestion even if you don't post it on the board.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Calm said:

Tacenda, you can send her a private message with BD's suggestion even if you don't post it on the board.

That's a good idea, but after thinking about it, I really don't care so much if she knows my heart. She's a conservative right and complains about immigrants a lot, and a huge Trump fan. And my son in law is a Mexican immigrant and she complains that the illegal ones get medicaid etc. but my son in law never has. And when I was younger she had a son, my uncle's step son, and we kids would be able to eat our bowl of ice cream in our grandma's living room but she was super hard on her son and made him go to the kitchen, and she was really strict with him in a lot of other ways making him feel like crap. So while I was a youngster I didn't feel very close to her. So I really don't know if I'll waste my time, the only way I'll do it, is if I thought it'd do some good. But she may be very set in her ways. ETA: The reason I liked BD's ideas was for others besides my aunt to read. So a PM, just for her, might be lost and a big waste on her, but maybe I can change her mind. :) 

Edited by Tacenda

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20 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is progress that people are critically thinking and realizing the shackles and control that so called "revealed religion" places on them. They see the so called "revalators" get so much wrong and contradict themselves time after time. 

In other words we are seeing a revolution in free thinkers and it is liberating since its pretty clear that living a life of submission to dogma that is fallacious if not false is no good way to live.

THIS!!!!!!

 

At the end of the rainbow in every discussion of LGBT is this kind of attitude. SSA (the same-six attackers) inevitably don't just want the church to be more kind and loving of LGBT people, they actually feel the church shackles, controls, is fallacious, false, and no good. And the whole LGBT thing is a means to attack current church members and leaders. 

I think it's great that the church is being more kind to those whose belief systems don't match our own. I think that the church is doing great to help its members focus on loving, not judging, those in our neighborhoods and communities.

But I would never be willing to join in an LGBT parade or put an LGBT flag in my yard because when you go over the rainbow you find a bunch of people with this attitude above who hate the church and want to destroy it. And they use LGBT as a way to attack church members and leaders who believe that it is a sin to participate in same-sex marriage or any homosexual activity.

These attacks on the church and clubbing it over LGBT issues is only going to get more frequent and fierce (just look at the history of posts on this board for to see how it works). Especially as the Church maintains its standards and holds to the teachings of the Christ* and the proclamation on the family.

 

*Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

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18 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

THIS!!!!!!

 

At the end of the rainbow in every discussion of LGBT is this kind of attitude. SSA (the same-six attackers) inevitably don't just want the church to be more kind and loving of LGBT people, they actually feel the church shackles, controls, is fallacious, false, and no good. And the whole LGBT thing is a means to attack current church members and leaders. 

I think it's great that the church is being more kind to those whose belief systems don't match our own. I think that the church is doing great to help its members focus on loving, not judging, those in our neighborhoods and communities.

But I would never be willing to join in an LGBT parade or put an LGBT flag in my yard because when you go over the rainbow you find a bunch of people with this attitude above who hate the church and want to destroy it. And they use LGBT as a way to attack church members and leaders who believe that it is a sin to participate in same-sex marriage or any homosexual activity.

These attacks on the church and clubbing it over LGBT issues is only going to get more frequent and fierce (just look at the history of posts on this board for to see how it works). Especially as the Church maintains its standards and holds to the teachings of the Christ* and the proclamation on the family.

 

*Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

So you feel the church is being attacked and discriminated against for attacking and discriminating against the LGBT community.  I think you are probably right.

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On 6/1/2019 at 11:54 AM, JLHPROF said:

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/30/opinions/lgbtq-stories-red-america-united-shades-pride-progress-allen

Interesting article.

Considering all the negative claims about how Utah culture, especially Mormon culture treats LGBTQ citizens apparently we're "more progressive" than evangelical states like those in the South.

Is that representative of a values shift here, or simply evidence that we make a greater effort to show love and understanding even if we consider it immoral.

Since everyone in Utah blindly follows what the prophet says (or so I've heard), maybe it's evidence that the Mormon culture doesn't hate LGBTQ citizens after all?  President Gordon B. Hinckley said: "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God."  I don't see any place for hatred or violence by Utah members of the church towards anyone.  Well, maybe with the exception of families traveling in a wagon train from Arkansas.  But seriously, how often does Utah see that?

I realize there is a lot of hatred out there for gays, minorities, Trump supporters, etc.  I haven't seen any encouragement from a president of the Church to engage in such behavior.  Does anyone have a quote from a recent president to the contrary?  I live far from Utah, but I get the impression the state loves to show off how accepting they can be to those outside the Church.  I'd love to be treated with the same respect offered by the Church by those who disagree with me.  I'm sure there are members who don't follow the council from the prophet, but it sounds like SLC is a pretty safe place for the LGBTQ community to live.

Nice to see Dan Reynolds with his shirt on for the article.  Since he started working out, most photos show him without his shirt on.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

At the end of the rainbow in every discussion of LGBT is this kind of attitude. SSA (the same-six attackers) inevitably don't just want the church to be more kind and loving of LGBT people, they actually feel the church shackles, controls, is fallacious, false, and no good. And the whole LGBT thing is a means to attack current church members and leaders. 

I honestly don't know of anyone who feels the way you describe above....at least not any of the members that I associate with in my ward or anyone here.  I cannot imagine that there is anyone who doesn't celebrate the more loving and accepting stance and church teachings that have evolved over the years to encourage family members to show love to those who are gay (unless you're referring to someone who does not want to be loving and accepting of their gay friends or family members or church members...which is just the opposite of what you're claiming above if I'm understanding you correctly) .  That includes the awesome announcement about the change to the policy recently.  I fully support our church leaders for making these changes and look forward to more.

Do you really believe anyone here does not "want the church to be more kind and loving of LGBT people"?  What an odd thing to say, IMO.  

Edited by ALarson
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28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I honestly don't know of anyone who feels the way you describe above....at least not any of the members that I associate with in my ward or anyone here.  I cannot imagine that there is anyone who doesn't celebrate the more loving and accepting stance and church teachings that have evolved over the years to encourage family members to show love to those who are gay (unless you're referring to someone who does not want to be loving and accepting of their gay friends or family members or church members...which is just the opposite of what you're claiming above if I'm understanding you correctly) .  That includes the awesome announcement about the change to the policy recently.  I fully support our church leaders for making these changes and look forward to more.

Do you really believe anyone here does not "want the church to be more kind and loving of LGBT people"?  What an odd thing to say, IMO.  

I think you misunderstood my post. I agree that the church and the majority of its leaders want to be more kind and loving of LGBT people.

But I also believe that a large percentage of those who want the church to change its doctrine on SSM & homosexual practices are actually wanting to attack and destroy the church. It's the same audience who complained about the Nov 2015 policy and then when the church switched the policy instead of saying, "Oh good" they said, "Oh look, the prophet doesn't really talk to God."

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

But I also believe that a large percentage of those who want the church to change its doctrine on SSM & homosexual practices are actually wanting to attack and destroy the church.

I have not seen this at all from my discussions with church members regarding this topic.  

There may be a very small percentage who feel this way, but I think those people will attack the church and the leaders regarding almost any topic.  You will find that with nearly all organizations or groups though, IMO.

Edited by ALarson
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