JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/30/opinions/lgbtq-stories-red-america-united-shades-pride-progress-allen Interesting article. Considering all the negative claims about how Utah culture, especially Mormon culture treats LGBTQ citizens apparently we're "more progressive" than evangelical states like those in the South. Is that representative of a values shift here, or simply evidence that we make a greater effort to show love and understanding even if we consider it immoral. Link to comment
why me Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/30/opinions/lgbtq-stories-red-america-united-shades-pride-progress-allen Interesting article. Considering all the negative claims about how Utah culture, especially Mormon culture treats LGBTQ citizens apparently we're "more progressive" than evangelical states like those in the South. Is that representative of a values shift here, or simply evidence that we make a greater effort to show love and understanding even if we consider it immoral. Well, this is an interesting issue. If one goes back to the 70s, the rights issue was gay or lesbian. Now, it seems that all are lumped together under one banner: LBGTQ and I do believe a couple more are added to the list. I am not sure if gay men are enjoying the fact that their movement has been hijacked by other groupings. Gay men do not request to use the women's shower at school. Nor do they wish to compete in female sports. I think that there are now too many issues being lumped under one roof. I do believe that the optimism in the video is not misplaced. Mormons seem to be caving in to societal pressure and I think that it will continue. How mormons accept such changes is quite another thing. But I can see a day when the same sex marriage will receive a temple marriage. However I do not see islam changing anytime soon. In Britain, muslim parents are protesting schools that are teaching that children can have two moms or two dads etc. And there is quite a backlash. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-48480299 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-48483734 Now if Mormons acted this way, there would be heck to pay from many members with many finding an excuse to leave the church. The media would have a field day with the news with being hyper critical of mormonism. But listening to british radio, the media seems to be doing a tiny tim as they tip tow through the tulips in calling out the muslims. What does it mean to be progressive? Are these muslims protesting progressive? What term should we give them? Edited June 1, 2019 by why me Link to comment
Tacenda Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 Maybe because Utah or SLC has the 7th highest population with LGBTQ's. https://news.gallup.com/poll/182051/san-francisco-metro-area-ranks-highest-lgbt-percentage.aspx Utah has no choice but to be progressive. And I'm sure the parade and it's popularity, is an outcome of this and the consequences of any back lash from those against those LGBTQ's. Recently in the news there was a neighborhood in Saratoga Springs I believe that had someone going around and stealing the rainbow colored flags. Don't know if it's just a bunch of kids or what. And also, recently there was the neighborhood below that really showed the love! Mama Dragons Like This Page · Yesterday · A great friend and ally to the LGBTQIA+ community made a brave request to her conservative neighbors. She and her husband sent letters to all, asking for permission to place rainbow pride flags in each of their lawns. They purchased 60 flags, sent the letters, made a few visits of encouragement, and have placed all 60 flags in this neighborhood! Here is an excerpt from the letter they sent: “We thought it would be just amazing if our Neighborhood would send the message loud and clear to our LGBTQ+ family members, neighbors and friends that this neighborhood is safe and that love, peace and hope is here for everyone and that each and every person is accepted unconditionally. This is an important message for us to send to the LGBTQ+ community in Utah as many LGBTQ+ youth in Utah are unsure of where and how they fit in to our community and often struggle with depression and even suicide. The message that we are sending is that our neighborhood is safe - that all people, regardless of race, color, gender, religion or sexual identity are welcome and treated equally with love, compassion and respect. If we, as a collective neighborhood, send this message with rainbow flags in front of each home and only one person sees it as a beacon of love, acceptance and a message of hope, it is worth it. If other neighborhoods see it as an example and choose to send similar messages of love and inclusion to their family, friends and neighbors, then even better.”#Makingadifference Link to comment
provoman Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 I do not think Utah - as a State is progressive. SLC maybe progressive. Link to comment
SteveO Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 1 hour ago, why me said: But I can see a day when the same sex marriage will receive a temple marriage. I’ve asked a number of other posters in other threads the same honest question: How could this even be reconciled with church doctrine? I don’t care one way or another about gay marriage, except I just can’t see how the church could make this decision without some serious problems being raised. 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 19 minutes ago, SteveO said: I’ve asked a number of other posters in other threads the same honest question: How could this even be reconciled with church doctrine? I don’t care one way or another about gay marriage, except I just can’t see how the church could make this decision without some serious problems being raised. You may be right, but that is not really the question being posed here. Rather we are seeing the wisdom and results of moderation in all things. That is what I got from the article in the OP. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2019 Author Share Posted June 1, 2019 2 hours ago, SteveO said: How could this even be reconciled with church doctrine? I don’t care one way or another about gay marriage, except I just can’t see how the church could make this decision without some serious problems being raised. It can't. Doctrinally the whole premise of marriage runs counter to SSM. But that may not stop "progress". 1 Link to comment
why me Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: Maybe because Utah or SLC has the 7th highest population with LGBTQ's. https://news.gallup.com/poll/182051/san-francisco-metro-area-ranks-highest-lgbt-percentage.aspx Utah has no choice but to be progressive. And I'm sure the parade and it's popularity, is an outcome of this and the consequences of any back lash from those against those LGBTQ's. Recently in the news there was a neighborhood in Saratoga Springs I believe that had someone going around and stealing the rainbow colored flags. Don't know if it's just a bunch of kids or what. And also, recently there was the neighborhood below that really showed the love! Mama Dragons Like This Page · Yesterday · A great friend and ally to the LGBTQIA+ community made a brave request to her conservative neighbors. She and her husband sent letters to all, asking for permission to place rainbow pride flags in each of their lawns. They purchased 60 flags, sent the letters, made a few visits of encouragement, and have placed all 60 flags in this neighborhood! Here is an excerpt from the letter they sent: “We thought it would be just amazing if our Neighborhood would send the message loud and clear to our LGBTQ+ family members, neighbors and friends that this neighborhood is safe and that love, peace and hope is here for everyone and that each and every person is accepted unconditionally. This is an important message for us to send to the LGBTQ+ community in Utah as many LGBTQ+ youth in Utah are unsure of where and how they fit in to our community and often struggle with depression and even suicide. The message that we are sending is that our neighborhood is safe - that all people, regardless of race, color, gender, religion or sexual identity are welcome and treated equally with love, compassion and respect. If we, as a collective neighborhood, send this message with rainbow flags in front of each home and only one person sees it as a beacon of love, acceptance and a message of hope, it is worth it. If other neighborhoods see it as an example and choose to send similar messages of love and inclusion to their family, friends and neighbors, then even better.”#Makingadifference Because this is no longer a gay issue or a lesbian issue but an issue of the groups in the initials, what should tolerance be? Should we be tolerant if a 14 years boy wants to shower with the girls because this boy feels like a girl? Or male sportsmen who become women but still have male hormones be allowed to take part in professional sports as women? So what does the gay pride flag mean today when we still have the initials LBTQ. And what would happen if a neighbor did not want to put the flag in the front sidewalk lawn? Would they be looked upon as homophobic? Edited June 1, 2019 by why me 1 Link to comment
USU78 Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 (edited) O tempora! Edited June 2, 2019 by USU78 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, why me said: Because this is no longer a gay issue or a lesbian issue but an issue of the groups in the initials, what should tolerance be? Should we be tolerant if a 14 years boy wants to shower with the girls because this boy feels like a girl? Or male sportsmen who become women but still have male hormones be allowed to take part in professional sports as women? So what does the gay pride flag mean today when we still have the initials LBTQ. And what would happen if a neighbor did not want to put the flag in the front sidewalk lawn? Would they be looked upon as homophobic? In this day and age girls don't shower together in gym or elsewhere, that I know of, could be wrong. If they do, I'm sure they won't allow it. And any law doesn't prohibit girls from leaving the shower, if they do. And I really doubt a trans would do that anyhow. If they do, I highly doubt they are trans. And if trans want to participate in a professional sport, I doubt very much it would be a problem in all honesty. Women are pretty fit now. But again I believe trans, if they are, would be respectful. And if a neighbor didn't want to have a flag in their yard, but relented, so be it. The Mama Dragons made sure to get permission, but I do see your point. Except I don't feel bad for any homophobic, so I'm bias and probably can't give an answer that would be positive for their side. Edited June 1, 2019 by Tacenda Link to comment
Jeanne Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 I have some sweet neighbors down the road aways...they have love signs all over and a rainbow mailbox...that have had to replace that a dozen times...I dunno...all it takes is one person to make a difference and one person to spoil the change. Link to comment
provoman Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Tacenda said: In this day and age girls don't shower together in gym or elsewhere, that I know of, could be wrong. If they do, I'm sure they won't allow it. And any law doesn't prohibit girls from leaving the shower, if they do. And I really doubt a trans would do that anyhow. If they do, I highly doubt they are trans. And if trans want to participate in a professional sport, I doubt very much it would be a problem in all honesty. Women are pretty fit now. But again I believe trans, if they are, would be respectful. And if a neighbor didn't want to have a flag in their yard, but relented, so be it. The Mama Dragons made sure to get permission, but I do see your point. Except I don't feel bad for any homophobic, so I'm bias and probably can't give an answer that would be positive for their side. I think point about the showers, is a place that traditionally was a "biological female ONLY space" is now or will be a "identify as female space" As for sports, it is happening NOW, biological males who identify as female are crushing what once were biological female only athletic records. This is happening in highschools and professional venues. Edited June 1, 2019 by provoman Link to comment
mnn727 Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 54 minutes ago, Tacenda said: In this day and age girls don't shower together in gym or elsewhere, that I know of, could be wrong. You are wrong. There are still after Gym class and after game showers. Link to comment
rpn Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) When they say that, they are referring to the fact that Utah was the first state that approved non-discrimination law for LGBT+ in employment and housing (except for religious institutions). It remains one of only a handful now, five years or so later. There has been early research (reported at the time in the BYU Alumni mag --- it was done there, but I haven't been even able to find the article announcing it online with a diligent search) that found that younger males with multiple older brothers were more likely to be gay. If that is accurate, then there are more likely to be gay children in any family with more children. So probably more mormons with ssa, and catholics with ssa, and evangelicals with ssa, and people with partners and no access to birth control with ssa. I don't recall any discussion of transgender issues in the reporting when that law was passed. I think transgender shouldn't be any different than LGB+ in housing and employment. But I haven't yet seen any science that supports a transgender cause, and I have read a lot about the damage peer/parent/society can do to encourage transgender thought in Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria. It greatly matters to me that parents or therapists are neither vilified nor lose parental rights/professional licenses because they refuse to go along with changing a persons biological sex. Edited June 2, 2019 by rpn 1 Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 9 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Considering all the negative claims about how Utah culture, especially Mormon culture treats LGBTQ citizens apparently we're "more progressive" than evangelical states like those in the South. I am sort of tired of the word "progressive" as it suggest that any given issue at hand is always better or forward. Unless of course one is charting the progress towards the end goal of arriving at the bottom of the pit. 2 Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 8 hours ago, SteveO said: I’ve asked a number of other posters in other threads the same honest question: How could this even be reconciled with church doctrine? I don’t care one way or another about gay marriage, except I just can’t see how the church could make this decision without some serious problems being raised. It can't be reconciled. I will continue to assert that it thousand times more likely that the church will practice polygamy again before accepting gay marriage let alone gay temple sealing. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, rpn said: at found that younger males with multiple older brothers were more likely to be gay. If that is accurate, then there are more likely to be gay children in any family with more children. Iirc, this has been mainstream research conclusions for quite some time Edited June 2, 2019 by Calm Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 5 hours ago, why me said: And what would happen if a neighbor did not want to put the flag in the front sidewalk lawn? Would they be looked upon as homophobic? I find that 98% of all instances where the word "homophobia" is used, an actual phobia does not exist. Simply not liking or agreeing with something does not constitute an actual phobia. I would not have a rainbow flag on my lawn as it may give an impression that I accept certain things when I don't. I wonder where this is going however. Given technological advancement into AI and 5G and the development of what is called "sex robot", perhaps we may see a day when these robots are given rights and perhaps its legal to humans to marry them. Sounds crazy but 30 years ago, gay marriage was a crazy notion. We have no clue what society will accept 20 or 30 years from now. I am sure many of us would be shocked if we had the chance to see 25 years in the future just as people from 1995 would be shocked to see what exists today. 2 Link to comment
Damien the Leper Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Utah has been and always will be the Babylon of the modern world...Utah County more than any other county. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2019 Author Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: I am sort of tired of the word "progressive" as it suggest that any given issue at hand is always better or forward. Unless of course one is charting the progress towards the end goal of arriving at the bottom of the pit. Agreed. Link to comment
tulip Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 LGBTQ is a mental disorder. Anyone who encourages mental disorders to continue is insane. Link to comment
Damien the Leper Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 39 minutes ago, tulip said: LGBTQ is a mental disorder. Anyone who encourages mental disorders to continue is insane. Heteronormativity is absurd. Link to comment
Benjamin Seeker Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, tulip said: LGBTQ is a mental disorder. Anyone who encourages mental disorders to continue is insane. Science doesn’t back you up there, pretty flower. Link to comment
sunstoned Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, tulip said: LGBTQ is a mental disorder. Anyone who encourages mental disorders to continue is insane. This is not correct. Not even close. It is also offensive. Link to comment
california boy Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 15 hours ago, SteveO said: I’ve asked a number of other posters in other threads the same honest question: How could this even be reconciled with church doctrine? I don’t care one way or another about gay marriage, except I just can’t see how the church could make this decision without some serious problems being raised. I would be glad to answer your question if you can tell me exactly how spirit children and worlds are created. Link to comment
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