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The White Horse prophecy


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Numerous people in the New York Times comments sections have stated that the constitution is hanging by a thread. Could we have a civics class here to explain this and keep politics out of it.

Edited by rodheadlee
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https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/White_Horse_prophecy

"Brigham Young and Orson Hyde both clearly state that the Constitution will be in grave danger of being destroyed. If the constitution is to be preserved it will be because the "Elders" of the Church will step forward and provide the support that will help to preserve the Constitution. The Elders of the Church will always be in support of the constitution, and will not ever be in a position to replace or supplant the constitutional principles in that document. Note that this belief has nothing to do with the so-called "White Horse" prophecy, but in fact preceded the date claimed for that prophecy.  - - -  The concern for the Constitution of the United States of America is a real and valid concern of the authorities and membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Because it was included as part of the White Horse does not give the White Horse any sort of credibility. It is an entirely separate concern."

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/edwin-rushton-source-white-horse-prophecy

"The so-called white horse prophecy has been cited in news media as the source of a prophecy that Latter-day Saint elders will preserve the US Constitution as it hangs by a thread. It is commonly claimed that the white horse prophecy was written and made public among Latter-day Saints in the 1850s. However, Don Penrod shows in this article that it was written around 1900 by Edwin Rushton, a Mormon living in Utah. - - - Penrod shows that while Brigham Young (in 1854) and Eliza R. Snow (in 1870) reported that Joseph Smith once said that the US Constitution would hang by a thread, the white horse prophecy embellishes this statement and adds fantastic predictions that are unsubstantiated elsewhere. It claims, among other things, that the Latter-day Saints (the "white horse") will create a wealthy haven in the Rocky Mountains at a time of worldwide financial and political catastrophe, and that the Russian Czar will lead the nations of the world against Zion. The alleged prophecy is not a reliable record, says Penrod, and it has been officially repudiated by the LDS Church since 1918. - - - The article exhibits for the first time the two manuscripts that are the earliest known drafts of the white horse prophecy and examines many problems in the texts of these documents."

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Let's start with the central simile, "hanging by a thread."  It is a particularly American and reform Protestant usage, going back at very least to Jonathan Edwards ca 1741:

Quote

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is of purer eyes than to bear you in his sight; you are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours. 

You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince, and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else that you did not got to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God provoking his pure eye by your sinful, wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell. 

O sinner! consider the fearful danger you are in! It is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath that you are held over in the hand of that God whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of Divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it and burn it asunder. . . . 

The simile stresses both the general dependency of man upon G-d and the present dire situation where G-d is particularly angry and judgment is imminent.  You don't have to be LDS to get the image and understand it generally.  In the prophecy, as I recall, there's a central "IF;" i.e., IF the USA is to be saved from G-d's judgment, it will be because the Elders of the Church have stepped up in some unclear fashion.  Is this an oblique reference to Lot/Abraham and the negotiation for Sodom's temporal salvation?  I think likely.  I myself suspect the "stepping up" is connected with temple work, where every day at a certain point, special prayers for nations and leaders of nations occur.  But that's not how most folks who are both aware of the Prophecy and are conversant with the issues wold see it.

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America has a Divine Destiny.  The Constitution is a Heavenly Banner.  There are many that believe in American Exceptionalism.

Those that favor ever larger government or desire to embrace totalitarianism or to conflate all the nations of the world into one stew of misery (diminished living standards and elimination of technological advantages) are naturally doing end-runs around the Constitution.  The people are being dumbed down by government public schools and history is being de-emphasized or distorted.  Historic statues are being pulled down.  Western Civilization is being disparaged.

I could go on and on but like you said, this thread can easily be over politicized.

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16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Kind of like a hanging chad in Florida

This is a general criticism that even if partisan for how the count went, is still just funny. No problem here.

12 minutes ago, longview said:

America has a Divine Destiny.  The Constitution is a Heavenly Banner.  There are many that believe in American Exceptionalism.

Those that favor ever larger government or desire to embrace totalitarianism or to conflate all the nations of the world into one stew of misery (diminished living standards and elimination of technological advantages) are naturally doing end-runs around the Constitution.  The people are being dumbed down by government public schools and history is being de-emphasized or distorted.  Historic statues are being pulled down.  Western Civilization is being disparaged.

I could go on and on but like you said, this thread can easily be over politicized.

 

9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

And thus begins the countdown to thread closure.

Yes USU78, but only here with longview, who ironically talks about how the ¨thread can easily be over politicized¨, do we actually start derailing the thread. Up until longview´s comment the thread was actually staying on topic and dealing with the topic in a respectable manner.

Particularly glaring is his juxtaposition of ¨history is being ... distorted.¨ and ¨historic statues are being pulled down. Western Civilization is being disparaged.¨ Bringing up the removal of those statues, let alone while speaking of distorting history, seems to only possibly be antagonistic. It's rich to close with a reference to the OP's request to keep politics out, let alone say the thread could easily be over politicized.

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2 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

This is a general criticism that even if partisan for how the count went, is still just funny. No problem here.

 

Yes USU78, but only here with longview, who ironically talks about how the ¨thread can easily be over politicized¨, do we actually start derailing the thread. Up until longview´s comment the thread was actually staying on topic and dealing with the topic in a respectable manner.

Particularly glaring is his juxtaposition of ¨history is being ... distorted.¨ and ¨historic statues are being pulled down. Western Civilization is being disparaged.¨ Bringing up the removal of those statues, let alone while speaking of distorting history, seems to only possibly be antagonistic. It's rich to close with a reference to the OP's request to keep politics out, let alone say the thread could easily be over politicized.

That's one of the reasons I focus on the thread, impending judgment, and what the language used means when we parse it.  I'd rather focus on what individual and corporate behaviors might lead to us in the US facing the spectre of firey judgment.

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I am not well versed in the US constitution but I am having a hard time coming up with a scenario in which the Brethren would be able to " save " it. Does that mean that certain members are in sufficiently powerful positions politically to stop some serious change? Does it mean that Utah might have the deciding vote on a critical issue? I note that there is a movement in a few states to somehow bypass the electoral college. Is this a problem , or is the current atmosphere just hyperbolic ranting? 

Edited by strappinglad
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4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Something to remember here is that the Constitution is designed to allow modification, amendments, etc.  It isn't a fixed document.

So if we are concerned with it hanging by a thread we should recognise that phrase probably refers to principles on which the Constitution is based.  Not to any particular law.

That said, this move to drop the electoral college is terrifying.

I think we're being too literal here.  The "Constitution" is, I think, a stand-in for the nation itself.  I think we're wasting our time looking at specific enactments or proposed amendments or even SCOTUS decisions.  The issue is the behaviors of the people and the nation itself.  What would motivate G-d to move us little spiders and hold us by our threads over the fire?

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2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Numerous people in the New York Times comments sections have stated that the constitution is hanging by a thread. Could we have a civics class here to explain this and keep politics out of it.

I have friends who believe that a certain US politician's refusal to release his tax returns is evidence that he is about to declare a dictatorship.  "Numerous people" in the NYT probably have no idea what's in the Constitution, let alone how it could be hanging by a thread.

Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I think we're being too literal here.  The "Constitution" is, I think, a stand-in for the nation itself.  I think we're wasting our time looking at specific enactments or proposed amendments or even SCOTUS decisions.  The issue is the behaviors of the people and the nation itself.  What would motivate G-d to move us little spiders and hold us by our threads over the fire?

I agree with this description of the situation but I think the thread statement is meant more literally than that.

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12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree with this description of the situation but I think the thread statement is meant more literally than that.

Well, we don't exactly have to agree on this.  Roe v Wade is only interesting other than as an academic exercise unless millions hate their own flesh enough to eat their young.

Edited by USU78
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1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

I am not well versed in the US constitution but I am having a hard time coming up with a scenario in which the Brethren would be able to " save " it. 

I agree.  The constitutions upholds a separation of church and state, as well as affirm "for the people by the people" so I agree - it is not "by the church and for the church" to meddle in or control.  

Edited by changed
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2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I am not well versed in the US constitution but I am having a hard time coming up with a scenario in which the Brethren would be able to " save " it. Does that mean that certain members are in sufficiently powerful positions politically to stop some serious change? Does it mean that Utah might have the deciding vote on a critical issue? I note that there is a movement in a few states to somehow bypass the electoral college. Is this a problem , or is the current atmosphere just hyperbolic ranting? 

This is what I was trying to figure out. Exactly what part of the Constitution was being voided and how would members of the church save it.

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

I think we're being too literal here.  The "Constitution" is, I think, a stand-in for the nation itself.  I think we're wasting our time looking at specific enactments or proposed amendments or even SCOTUS decisions.  The issue is the behaviors of the people and the nation itself.  What would motivate G-d to move us little spiders and hold us by our threads over the fire?

Thanks for posting I understand your position. 

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Correct me if I am wrong , but it is my understanding that the separation clause says that Congress shall make no law, in other words the government should not meddle in religious affairs , but I don't read that religions have no right to petition government. History has several examples where the government has bent that rule and even broken it . 

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2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

This is what I was trying to figure out. Exactly what part of the Constitution was being voided and how would members of the church save it.

 

3 hours ago, changed said:

I agree.  The constitutions upholds a separation of church and state, as well as affirm "for the people by the people" so I agree - it is not "by the church and for the church" to meddle in or control.  

Since the D&C clearly states the Lord will make an end of ALL nations (including the USA) any saving of the Constitution has to be principle based.

Fortunately God's theocracy will be better than even our original republic.

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To the degree that it means that the Constitution isn't being followed as originally created (with an agreement that it was always meant to be malleable), nevertheless, that was tossed somewheres along the time of Andrew Jackson and we haven't seen it since.

I have to admit I'm not stuck on us being a nation, as such.  I'd like to think that as wonderful as the caterpillar and larval stage is, we have a butterfly ahead of us that is Zion, and it cannot be nation based, but will have all people of all nations and every true and beautiful thing they bring to the table, and the falling away and dissolution of whatever is not.

I'm also seeing that organically we will have completely new forms of governance i.e. internet and small organization based, and I'm not against nor afraid of the next disruption in human society's format.

“I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”  Joseph Smith

"When men are pure, laws are useless; when men are corrupt, laws are broken." Disraeli

That being said, my young self who was a committed Constitutionalist (although not committed enough to still be one!) is really disappointed that people don't understand the Electoral College, have never used it properly, and absolutely you do not get rid of it as long as you are using the Constitution.

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God has stated that the constitution was at least partially inspired. That being said the United States will end like all other nations. It is not divine or eternal. It is useful to God’s purposes for a season and one can and should support it and even give their life to defend it but too many fall into political idolatry.

American exceptionalism is one of those loaded terms that can mean almost anything. If it refers to the United States unique founding principles and the desire for egalitarianism and an end to ethnic and cultural homogeneity then I agree this was a good idea. We had a rough time implementing it but it is a bold experiment in fighting inbuilt tribalism and xenophobia. The irony is that those who now tout American Exceptionalism tend to be exclusionary and hyperprotective of a certain cultural state and live in paranoia of foreign cultural infection.

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