Julie Rowe rumor

[Scott Lloyd]

On 6/8/2019 at 9:32 PM, why me said:

The expression follow the brethren or follow the prophet can be problematic for the believing member  because it is a sign of blind obedience, if said by an exmember about believing members. Such expressions if said in such a way by exmembers is said to imply that believing members have no brain to think for themselves.

It is, for the critic, a dog whistle (to apply a catch term that has lately come into common political parlance). 

That is to say, the critic will apply it to a Church member and then say the Church member has no standing to view it as an insult, because it is, after all, a lesson one learns in Primary and carries through life. 

The insinuation, though, amounts to tacking the unspoken word <blindly> onto it, as in “follow the prophet — blindly” or “follow the Brethren — blindly.”  The critic knows fully well that others of his ilk will understand this.  It is, thus, a dog whistle for those who disparage the Church and its members. And it is an instance of sophistry. 

[Jake Starkey]

Three months later, after all the furor has subsided, the point is simple: Julie could not follow counsel and suffered the consequences.

What is concerning to me is that the Brethren restrict 'healing' to the Priesthood.

We all know many Sisters who anoint and give blessings by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus Christ for faith, healing, and health.

And why not?

Brining in beamers and essential oils and end days simply messes up what should be a holy, quiet moment of supplicant, healter, and the Holy Spirit.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Three months later, after all the furor has subsided, the point is simple: Julie could not follow counsel and suffered the consequences.

What is concerning to me is that the Brethren restrict 'healing' to the Priesthood.

We all know many Sisters who anoint and give blessings by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus Christ for faith, healing, and health.

And why not?

Brining in beamers and essential oils and end days simply messes up what should be a holy, quiet moment of supplicant, healter, and the Holy Spirit.

Do we?  I don't know any who are anointing and giving blessings by the laying on of hands.  Can you clarify what you mean by that?

Welcome to the board by the way.   

[Jake Starkey]

Bluebell, thank you.  I guess I am surprised that you don't know such sisters (but I don't know you either, so forgive my presumption) who annoint and give blessings by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus Christ for faith, healing, and health.  Supposedly, they are in demand for 'confinement' blessings (getting ready for childbirth).  I know quite a number in Salt Lake Valley, the Denver area, and down in Washington County.

Whether essential oils are used in these rituals, I have no idea, but I gather they are becoming popular in energy healings that are getting some sisters in trouble with the LDS church.

I support wholly faith healing in the name of and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

 

[alter idem]

2 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Three months later, after all the furor has subsided, the point is simple: Julie could not follow counsel and suffered the consequences.

What is concerning to me is that the Brethren restrict 'healing' to the Priesthood.

We all know many Sisters who anoint and give blessings by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus Christ for faith, healing, and health.

And why not?

Brining in beamers and essential oils and end days simply messes up what should be a holy, quiet moment of supplicant, healter, and the Holy Spirit.

It seems that the focus of her church leaders was her energy healing first and then her podcasts.  She's back in force with her energy healing work.  I just recently listened to a podcast (it was announcements) and she mentioned that she was doing some energy classes.  300.00 dollars for a day of classes (and this was the early bird price) and they had almost 100 people signed up--in Provo Utah.  That is what surprised me.  And that's a lot of money for Julie Rowe to be making so it would seem her energy work is lucrative. She holds many of these seminars so the money surely adds up.  She took her podcasts down for a while, but after being exed, she's been doing them again and is now putting them all back up.  I don't agree that the brethren are restricting healing,  women can lay hands on head and pronounce blessings through the power of faith.  But, the essential oils are very new age and involve spending a lot of money for tiny little vials that are supposed to have all kinds of purposes, is not part of that healing by faith, IMO. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do we?  I don't know any who are anointing and giving blessings by the laying on of hands.  Can you clarify what you mean by that?

Welcome to the board by the way.   

Ditto.

[Jake Starkey]

I don't really understand the essential oils thing other than a faddish female (?) - oriented marketing scheme as a part of faith and energy healing.

I get the idea of aromatherapy, but is it done as an 'anointing' to particular parts of the body and then sealed with a blessing for faith, health, and healing?

[Calm]

It is not only aromatherapy as some of the essential oils contain elements absorbed through the skin (this is why they say not to put on full strength but dilute in a carrier oil...and some should never be applied at all iirc).  Some also have them taking stuff internally, though I don’t know if the companies promote that. 

Some of the oils are probably effective to a certain extent, most are likely placebos imo....but I use some as perfume or to make my room smell nice. That can be emotionally uplifting just because I like certain smells (jasmine).  Perfumes themselves tend to set off allergy attacks. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Some of the oils are probably effective to a certain extent, most are likely placebos imo..

A lot of the claims you hear from oil advocates are nonsense, but there are a fair number of scientific studies on many particularly in animal husbandry. Things like oregano, thyme or peppermint oils as antibiotics. I personally find for an upset stomach that peppermint works better the pepto-bismal. The problem is that the business model most of these companies favor tend to incentivize outrageous claims that the companies can say they didn't advocate.

The main problem is doing peer reviewed double blind studies with reasonable sample sizes. (A lot of stuff you see referenced by oil proponents has very small sample sizes and is thus not terribly meaningful) Legitimate studies that actually tell us things cost a lot of money and few are willing to do them.

3 hours ago, alter idem said:

It seems that the focus of her church leaders was her energy healing first and then her podcasts.  She's back in force with her energy healing work.  I just recently listened to a podcast (it was announcements) and she mentioned that she was doing some energy classes.  300.00 dollars for a day of classes (and this was the early bird price) and they had almost 100 people signed up--in Provo Utah.

Energy stuff is popular. If I understand correctly the issue with Rowe was mixing religious language and quasi-priesthood actions with the energy healing. I suspect it'd get dismissed as just an other alternative medicine claims ranging from chiropractory through other such stuff were it not from that emulation of priesthood. As far as I know that's primarily Rowe and a few others with most other energy workers distancing themselves from that and outright upset at her. It's also worth noting that most energy workers don't use quasi-religious overtones. That said I think it clear that some, particularly in a few locations like parts of American Fork, have embraced it in a disturbing way. I'd hope people don't label everyone because of what Rowe and a few others are doing.

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do we?  I don't know any who are anointing and giving blessings by the laying on of hands.  Can you clarify what you mean by that?

There's a few you see retweeted on Twitter occasionally. I suspect were one to closely go through The Exponent or Feminist Mormon Housewives you'd find examples of people doing it. Here's one example and another I found with a quick google. My guess is that there's overlap between feminists wanting more eccesiastic influence and those using energy alternative medicine in a quasi-priesthood way. To me the issue isn't energy claims but these larger feminist issues. However it seems clear some are conflating them.

Edited September 4, 2019 by clarkgoble

[Jake Starkey]

Thank you, Calm.  Those uses of essential oils are what the fragrances industry has done for thousands of years, so it sounds as if it is modern-day uplift.

That is smart business. 

Do you know, Calm, if these oils are mixed with anointing oil as an additive (a supercharger?) as part of a healing process.

I know the Mormon Strangites of Beaver Island and Voree put a luminescent in oil to mark the forward of believers so the oil would glow at night.  The process was called 'lamination.'  But I believe it was a 'mark' of faith or belief, much like traditional Christians have their foreheads marked each Ash Wednesday.

[clarkgoble]

9 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Do you know, Calm, if these oils are mixed with anointing oil as an additive (a supercharger?) as part of a healing process.

If you mean the main oil companies, no. Typically a company like Doterra sells coconut oil as a "carrier oil." More or less an oil that dilutes an other oil - important for oils like oregano that can actually burn you particularly if you have wet skin. However you certainly can use olive oil - particulary if an oil starts burning you or if you get something in your eye. Most people have a bottle of olive oil on hand. But I'd think it'd be blasphemous to mix consecrated oil with something from Young Living or Doterra. Although in the early Church I believe annointings were done with oil mixed with cinnamon or the like. But I see that as an artifact of the era and more aesthetic than having any religious significance.

I've no idea what Rowe is doing. I'm sure she's mixing and matching things and trying to get a following. To me what's she's doing is priestcraft. If God is involved then no money ought be exchanged.

Edited September 4, 2019 by clarkgoble

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Bluebell, thank you.  I guess I am surprised that you don't know such sisters (but I don't know you either, so forgive my presumption) who annoint and give blessings by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus Christ for faith, healing, and health.  Supposedly, they are in demand for 'confinement' blessings (getting ready for childbirth).  I know quite a number in Salt Lake Valley, the Denver area, and down in Washington County.

Whether essential oils are used in these rituals, I have no idea, but I gather they are becoming popular in energy healings that are getting some sisters in trouble with the LDS church.

I support wholly faith healing in the name of and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

 

I've heard of the practice but I don't know any women who actually do it.  It seems like a fringe kind of thing.

[changed]

On 5/26/2019 at 8:06 PM, Calm said:

Oh man, she rambles...looks like it happened, but I couldn't last to where she specifically says it happen...she has known it was going to happen for at least a year because she saw it in a vision.  

Given her past blaming of others by rewriting what actually happened, I don't see much reason to trust her account, but rest assured it is always someone else's fault.

Looks like she is making quite a bit of money from her energy work, though she says her books aren't selling well.

The excommunicated stuff starts around 20 minutes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=iEPl8t1XnKw

Finished listening (goes to close to timestamp 35 minutes)

Excommunicated for apostasy, teaching false doctrine, priestcraft, and defaming the name of church leadership according to Rowe.

She specifies as false doctrine the multiple mortal probations (reincarnation, she herself was Joan of Arc among others) and her energy work (from what she says I am guessing the problem was her getting paid for what the stake President saw as a religious action---prayer and casting out of demons).

She is taking in about a 100$ per hour for in person classes (don't know how many people in a class, no refunds for cancelations for any reason apparently) and 130$ per hour for a personal phone session, $40 for 30 minutes for a group session.  She went to Hawaii last month to teach classes.

15k views, 220 likes - another example of multiple groups all claiming the same spiritual guidance... 

[changed]

36 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

 To me what's she's doing is priestcraft. If God is involved then no money ought be exchanged.

Are you ok with women who do this kind of thing for free?

[clarkgoble]

4 minutes ago, changed said:

Are you ok with women who do this kind of thing for free?

At the moment the policy is to call for the Elders. I personally am skeptical people are doing it for the right reasons but for more personal emotional reasons. But of course I don't know and it's not up to me it's up to God. I think those publicizing it clearly are making a more political point. I'm fine with it in theory, but think the policy needs to be changed by revelation from God by those with the proper authority. People taking it upon themselves are acting inappropriately IMO. But certainly historically it was common up through the 1920's and continued up until around WWII. Since then clearly they've requested we not do it. I'd not be at all shocked if Pres. Nelson changes the policy over the next few years. But until he does, it's inappropriate. He has the keys.

Edited September 4, 2019 by clarkgoble

[changed]

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

At the moment the policy is to call for the Elders. I personally am skeptical people are doing it for the right reasons but for more personal emotional reasons. But of course I don't know and it's not up to me it's up to God. I think those publicizing it clearly are making a more political point. I'm fine with it in theory, but think the policy needs to be changed by revelation from God by those with the proper authority. People taking it upon themselves are acting inappropriately IMO. But certainly historically it was common up through the 1920's and continued up until around WWII. Since then clearly they've requested we not do it. I'd not be at all shocked if Pres. Nelson changes the policy over the next few years. But until he does, it's inappropriate. He has the keys.

I think it is inappropriate for married men to be taking women and girls they are not related to behind closed doors, laying hands on them, and whispering in their ears... but I guess everyone defines morality slightly differently

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Bluebell, thank you.  I guess I am surprised that you don't know such sisters (but I don't know you either, so forgive my presumption) who annoint and give blessings by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus Christ for faith, healing, and health.  Supposedly, they are in demand for 'confinement' blessings (getting ready for childbirth).  I know quite a number in Salt Lake Valley, the Denver area, and down in Washington County.

Whether essential oils are used in these rituals, I have no idea, but I gather they are becoming popular in energy healings that are getting some sisters in trouble with the LDS church.

I support wholly faith healing in the name of and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

 

This is the first I’ve heard of such a thing. 

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

At the moment the policy is to call for the Elders. I personally am skeptical people are doing it for the right reasons but for more personal emotional reasons. But of course I don't know and it's not up to me it's up to God. I think those publicizing it clearly are making a more political point. I'm fine with it in theory, but think the policy needs to be changed by revelation from God by those with the proper authority. People taking it upon themselves are acting inappropriately IMO. But certainly historically it was common up through the 1920's and continued up until around WWII. Since then clearly they've requested we not do it. I'd not be at all shocked if Pres. Nelson changes the policy over the next few years. But until he does, it's inappropriate. He has the keys.

My parents were young adults in the 1920s, and four of their five children had been born by the end of the 1940s. I was not born until the next decade, but if it were such a common thing, I believe they would have talked about it. I don’t recall their ever mentioning it. 

[clarkgoble]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My parents were young adults in the 1920s, and four of their five children had been born by the end of the 1940s. I was not born until the next decade, but if it were such a common thing, I believe they would have talked about it. I don’t recall their ever mentioning it. 

I don't think there's a way to know how common it was in absolute terms. However the Church's The First Fifty Years of the Relief Society they discuss it and that no limits were placed on it until Heber J. Grant and that under Joseph it was discussed. It's not until after WWII that we get Joseph F. Smith setting the current policy.

"While the Authorities of the Church have ruled that it is permissible, under certain conditions and with the approval of the Priesthood, for sisters to wash and anoint other sisters, yet they feel that it is far better for us to follow the plan the Lord has given us and send for the Elders of the Church to come and administer to the sick and afflicted" 

You have official statements from the First Presidency in the early decades of the 20th century permitting and even encouraging the practice. (See the 1914 First Presidency Circular -- also quoted from in the lds.org entry.) See Jonathan Stapley's "Female Ritual Healing" for more references. Joseph F. Smith was prior to WWII a big proponent of female healing. 

I can't speak to your grandparents or how normative their practices were, but there's plenty of literature from before WWII promoting the practice.

Edited September 4, 2019 by clarkgoble

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, changed said:

I think it is inappropriate for married men to be taking women and girls they are not related to behind closed doors, laying hands on them, and whispering in their ears... but I guess everyone defines morality slightly differently

When does that happen?  I've had lots of blessings and none of them have been behind closed doors or involved whispering in ears.  That's just weird.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Things like oregano, thyme or peppermint oils as antibiotics. I personally find for an upset stomach that peppermint works better the pepto-bismal

This is among what I was thinking of.  I go to peppermint tea for upset stomach even though I don't particularly like it.  I use quite a number of home remedies (garlic especially, aloe vera for anything skin) after I see some suggestion based on scientific studies or theory that they might work.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Do you know, Calm, if these oils are mixed with anointing oil as an additive (a supercharger?) as part of a healing process.

I haven't heard of women actually anointing (ritual use) as opposed to using it just as an ointment (seen as purely medical use).  Sounds like Clark is more familiar with it.

I will try and remember to ask my sister-in-law if she has heard of that as she does study alternative health (mainly nutrition) as a support for academic medicine and women she knows might be doing it.

I would not be surprised if this was happening though.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My parents were young adults in the 1920s, and four of their five children had been born by the end of the 1940s. I was not born until the next decade, but if it were such a common thing, I believe they would have talked about it. I don’t recall their ever mentioning it. 

One of my great grandmothers was set apart  ( "ordained"by someone from Salt Lake City, iirc) to do exactly that in the late 1800's.  I have the certificate of this somewhere.  Agewise, she could easily have still been doing this in the 20's.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I've had lots of blessings and none of them have been behind closed doors or involved whispering in ears.

Really? That's a shame. I personally like to switch on the lava lamp and turn the overhead lights down low. That's specifically why all priesthood holders are instructed in leadership meetings to install dimmer switches.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Really? That's a shame. I personally like to switch on the lava lamp and turn the overhead lights down low. That's specifically why all priesthood holders are instructed in leadership meetings to install dimmer switches.