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SouthernMo

If not LDS, then what...

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2019 at 5:30 PM, SouthernMo said:

Ok, so just like when Christ’s original apostles died, many kept their authority, and the church went on?

Ordained people did not lose the priesthood just because the apostles died. But in areas other than Rome, no one technically had the keys to pass that on. Leaders who held the Melchizedek priesthood and were the equivalent of Stake presidents likely carried on for some time, but ultimately when that group died, Rome, and Peter’s keys would ultimately have to be looked to for truly passing on authority.  Hence not too long after Peter’s death power began to concentrate in Rome. Of course, Rome being the capital of the Roman Empire didn’t hurt either. 

Edited by mrmarklin

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

There’s precedent— he did it with the idol of the unknown god. I’m not saying I buy the heretical group defense, but there’s precedent. 

I think that's very different. That was an analogy. For it to be a similar the point would have to be that the followers of the unknown god had some valid doctrine :)

 In the case of Paul the supposedly heretical sect still had a valid belief in the resurrection and he would have been citing the reason for the valid Doctrine even though they still held an invalid Doctrine.

In other words the heretical sect would have to have had at least one valid Doctrine, the resurrection, but that was not the case with the unknown God.

So it is an entirely different case.

It would be like citing Calvinism as valid to prove some point in Catholicism, perhaps for example that because Calvinism believes in the trinity then Catholic Doctrine on some other subject is correct.

It's a very odd way to make a point.

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Spammer said:

Ok, you meant baptism for the dead. Thanks.

Yes, I was endowed. Pre-1990. Baptism for the dead as a teen, then was endowed in 1985, the same year I left for my mission. Married my wife in the SLC temple post-mission. I did occasional work for the dead in four different temples starting while in the MTC from 1985-1992 (all ordinances).

 

Then how do you account for the similarity between Coptic practices and the initiatories? 

Old Joe hung out with Copts or other Orthodox? ;)

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Every picture of Peter in every Catholic Church I have been in, and I’ve been in a lot, has Peter holding the keys to the Kingdom. 

That church is certainly convinced that the keys were held by Peter. This is also backed up by scripture. I don’t know what the position of other apostles has to do with this. 

You also must realize that had not Hyrum Smith died beside his brother, he, as First Elder, would have succeeded to the head of the LDS Church. 

That simple, huh?

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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Ordained people did not lose the priesthood just because the apostles died. But in areas other than Rome, no one technically had the keys to pass that on. Leaders who held the Melchizedek priesthood and were the equivalent of Stake presidents likely carried on for some time, but ultimately when that group died, Rome, and Peter’s keys would ultimately have to be looked to for truly passing on authority.  Hence not too long after Peter’s death power began to concentrate in Rome. Of course, Rome being the capital of the Roman Empire didn’t hurt either. 

That simple, huh?

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2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

That simple, huh?

For the Catholics, yes. What else?

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2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

For the Catholics, yes. What else?

I’m not asking about what Catholics believe. I’m talking about what historians believe. What is more likely true than the legends and traditions that support the authoritative narrative. 

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11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Then how do you account for the similarity between Coptic practices and the initiatories? 

Old Joe hung out with Copts or other Orthodox? ;)

That’s a good question. I don’t know. Does anyone? There aren't any primary sources that document where LDS washing and anointing comes from, including the hypothesized revelation behind the ordinance. I can think of some plausible hypotheses that exclude revelation, whether or not we start with the idea that Joseph was an uneducated country bumpkin.  That won’t resonate with anyone who has a testimony of Joseph’s prophetic call, though, just as LDS testimony bearing doesn’t resonate with me. I’m not sure what the benefit would be if I shared my guesses.

Edited by Spammer

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1 hour ago, Spammer said:

That’s a good question. I don’t know. Does anyone? There aren't any primary sources that document where LDS washing and anointing comes from, including the hypothesized revelation behind the ordinance. I can think of some plausible hypotheses that exclude revelation, whether or not we start with the idea that Joseph was an uneducated country bumpkin.  That won’t resonate with anyone who has a testimony of Joseph’s prophetic call, though, just as LDS testimony bearing doesn’t resonate with me. I’m not sure what the benefit would be if I shared my guesses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing

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On 5/26/2019 at 12:28 PM, USU78 said:

Jewish. Conservative. Not Hassid.

I'd go with Reformed Judaism. 

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Catholic.

Line of authority, liturgy, symbolism of rituals.

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I would probably be a non-denominational Christian.  

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I'd probably break off and not really join a church. I have a few family friends that we are really close with and that we have a spiritual bond with. We wouldn't perform ordinances or anything like that, unless otherwise instructed, but would continue in the spirit of the symbols those ordinances taught. To my understanding if all the General Authorities dropped dead right now I would still have authority to baptize, so our little "Fellowship" might continue that. I would also continue using "tithing" as a way to help the poor around us and pool it together using online tools and such. Essentially just use what we could, and no more, to build a small Zion and pray for blessings.

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