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Peppermint Patty

Professor John Gee Leaves the Maxwell Institute?

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I think that most of us have known somebody who was forced out of a position, but the "official" statement released by those in power told a different story. About 20 years ago, a head coach at the high school where I teach was forced out - told to resign. The administration wrote a communication for the press and used the same communication for the school wide email. The gist of it was that he resigned because he wanted to spend more time with his family. He told me that the administration told him to resign or be fired from his coaching position. If he resigned, he could keep the extra class he was teaching ($6,000+ per year). If he was fired, he would lose the extra class.

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26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Dr Gee has spent many years publishing standard Egyptological articles in secular, peer-reviewed journals and books, and no one has raised a ruckus about that.  I'd very much like to see comments making him seem "largely disrespected by the Egyptology community."  I don't believe it.  Of course, Dr Robert Ritner, whose angry diatribes against the LDS are there for all to see, probably does not like Dr Gee.

Has Gee ever published any "standard Egyptological articles" that contained even a single reference to The Book of Abraham?  Or does he have to pretend like he doesn't believe the BoA either?

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19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Dr Gee has spent many years publishing standard Egyptological articles in secular, peer-reviewed journals and books, and no one has raised a ruckus about that.  I'd very much like to see comments making him seem "largely disrespected by the Egyptology community."  I don't believe it.  Of course, Dr Robert Ritner, whose angry diatribes against the LDS are there for all to see, probably does not like Dr Gee.

Before I go searching I want to be clear on your point.  I'd concede that he has published standard Egyptological articles in secular, peer-reviewed journals and books.  I was already trying to concede that he is largely respected for that work.  But I do believe I've seen some, beyond Robert Ritner although he'd be tops on the list of those who have taken issue with Gee of course, who have taken issue with his work as it pertains to Egyptology pertaining to the apologetic efforts related to the Book of Abraham.  I'm going from memory of that, and I might be thinking of Muhlestein rather than Gee, but I wanted to make sure we are understanding each other.  

it may very well color my perception, but I am certain we are aware of Brian Hauglid's recent Facebook comment:  

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2 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

Louis Midgley just commented that he was notified 10 days ago by an Apostle:

"I first heard about this from one of the Brethren ten days ago. Fluhman may or may not have known that John Gee would soon escape from his control. Like Dan Peterson, I have also seen a copy of the memo to Fluhman that shifted John Gee, with the Bill Gay chair, as Dan has indicated, to a solid academic department."

Not necessarily an Apostle.  My memory is that Lou uses "Brethern" for Seventies as well (he has friends among the Seventies, though certainly could among the apostles as well; I just remember comments about lunching with a friend who was a Seventy).

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I dont' have anything against him, and happily accept that he is highly respected in his field.  But one thing seems certain as per his work on the BoA, particularly as it pertains to Egyptology, it seems largely disrespected by the Egyptology community.  if i'm wrong about that impression I'd like to know. 

I believe Gee is smart and I've heard he has published on Egyptology topics that aren't Mormon related in peer reviewed journals.  I don't know how involved he's been in Egyptology publishing in recent years, and would be interested if anyone knows more about his bonafides in the Egyptological scholarly community.  

As for his BoA work, I don't know of any non-Mormon Egyptologists who take it seriously.  If there are some, I would be happy to learn more.  

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2 hours ago, stemelbow said:
Quote

Prof. Peterson is engaging in some very deceptive spin. Dr. Gee is not a full professor (highest academic rank), is not tenured (=Continuing Faculty Status at BYU), and does not still retain the Gay chair. Further, Gee's move to Ancient Near Eastern Languages (ANEL) was not a power move to escape the MI or its director, Spencer Fluhman. Gee was absolutely removed from his position, after previous probationary actions were taken against him by the university, and all of this was accomplished by proper channels and policies. Well before this recent announcement, Gee was compelled to go hat in hand to ask whether ANEL or other colleges and units on campus might take him on. All initially rebuffed him. Eventually a deal was worked out with ANEL and he found a temporary home there (again, he is not tenured and works on a contingent contract). As much as Peterson would like to have you think otherwise, Gee's departure was not at his request or to his benefit, though he may eventually come to like his new position more. It is understandable that Peterson would try to assist his long time friend in saving face, but his dishonesty in this effort is a disservice to everyone involved.

Thanks for the link to he Dr Peterson's blog about it.  This was quite a comment, thought I'd bring it here for further discussion.  If this starsshine1942 person knows what he/she says, this is quite a story.  It does feel like MI doesn't need Gee to fulfill their obligation to the BoA stuff.  Wouldn't be surprised at all if they've tried and tried to get him out for various reasons, and certainly wouldn't be surprised by the story this comment tells.   

Wow, so it sounds like he's just a regular adjunct instructor then?  That would be quite the fall from his position at the MI.  I'm assuming you got this quote from Dan's blog, do you know if the person who posted this is a credible source?  

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2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks for the link to he Dr Peterson's blog about it.  This was quite a comment, thought I'd bring it here for further discussion.  If this starsshine1942 person knows what he/she says, this is quite a story.  It does feel like MI doesn't need Gee to fulfill their obligation to the BoA stuff.  Wouldn't be surprised at all if they've tried and tried to get him out for various reasons, and certainly wouldn't be surprised by the story this comment tells.   

If Gee retains the Gay chair, it would indicate who is closer to the truth, Peterson or starshine.

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16 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Not necessarily an Apostle.  My memory is that Lou uses "Brethern" for Seventies as well (he has friends among the Seventies, though certainly could among the apostles as well; I just remember comments about lunching with a friend who was a Seventy).

I think with the recent hubbub that Lou created a few months back on the narrative he was crafting around the MI and how the 2012 purge went down that any comments he makes should be looked at with a strong skepticism.  He comes across as a delusional old crank.  

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5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Wow, so it sounds like he's just a regular adjunct instructor then?

That should be pretty simple to check out.  (Maybe not right away, but eventually, right?)

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Just now, ALarson said:

That should be pretty simple to check out.  (Maybe not right away, but eventually, right?)

Yes, I would think you could tell when they update his profile if he's a tenured professor or not.  Maybe I'm wrong, can anyone comment on whether this is public knowledge for BYU instructors?    

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think with the recent hubbub that Lou created a few months back on the narrative he was crafting around the MI and how the 2012 purge went down that any comments he makes should be looked at with a strong skepticism.  He comes across as a delusional old crank.  

I have known Lou, though as an acquaintance, for years...since I joined FAIR back in 2001.  I have little doubt he talked to one of his friends about the subject.  Getting mixed up about details in a story that spanned several years or having strong opinions about motivations of others is not the same as remembering what happened in the last two weeks.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

No. not necessarily.  I'd find it interesting if true, but it'd be nice if this person gave us evidence for the claims, if true.  If it's somebody in the know, I'd like to know who it is.

Roger, roger.

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Just now, Calm said:

I have known Lou, though as an acquaintance, for years...since I joined FAIR back in 2001.  I have little doubt he talked to one of his friends about the subject.  Getting mixed up about details in a story that spanned several years is not the same as remembering what happened in the last two weeks.

Its more like a pattern of commentary and a specific bias around this subject that he was personally involved in and hurt by.  Its understandable that people in his situation have a difficult time showing objectivity.  Circumstances look differently when viewed through the lens of a dispassionate outside observer.  

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its more like a pattern of commentary and a specific bias around this subject that he was personally involved in and hurt by.  Its understandable that people in his situation have a difficult time showing objectivity.  Circumstances look differently when viewed through the lens of a dispassionate outside observer.  

I am talking specifically about trusting what he said in the quote or not.

-----

Back to responding to another post.

As far as tenure, no one has tenure at BYU technically speaking (source is my UVU prof husband, who I double checked with as we had discussed this when he was looking at a job opportunity there before he went to UVU).  They have what they call a "continuing position" (correction:  continuing faculty status or CFS) which amounts to the same thing in his view, which is mentioned in the claim.  I wonder if the fact Gee holds a Senior Research Fellow position rather than being in a regular faculty is what causes the difference, if there actually is one.  Probably what matters is more where he ends up, imo.

Once Gee's info is switched to his new department, I am assuming his status as a full time professor, etc. should be confirmed or not on the department directory.  Maxwell Institute isn't set up that way, he is a Senior Research Fellow there:

https://mi.byu.edu/personnel/scholars/

http://ane.byu.edu/arab/faculty/

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Thinking said:

You'll notice that PP's title has a question mark.  Perhaps this paragraph hints at some sort of encouraged exit. I can see why she would ask the question.

 

That didn't strike me at all the way it appears it did you. 

This was Dan Peterson writing, so I took it, if anything, to mean that he (Professor Peterson) and those of like mind were encouraging Professor Gee to come out of the institute and join professionally with them rather than those at the institute themselves trying to push Gee out of the institute. Who would be "dismissing" him if it weren't the institute powers that be? Surely not Daniel Peterson.

So I still say the thread title is misleading in the extreme.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Has Gee ever published any "standard Egyptological articles" that contained even a single reference to The Book of Abraham?  Or does he have to pretend like he doesn't believe the BoA either?

I recall at least one non-LDS Egyptologist (from Germany) visiting and lecturing at BYU, and it appeared to me that he and Gee were good friends.  I can't imagine why any reasonable non-LDS Egyptologist (apart from Ritner) would find fault with Gee's belief in the authenticity of the BofA as an ancient document.  Certainly, that was not the view of the late Dr Klaus Baer (Univ of Chicago, Oriental Institute), who spent an entire week at BYU lecturing on ancient Egypt, and who wrote a piece on the Kirtland Egyptian Papyri for Dialogue.  He and Hugh Nibley were fast friends.

As I demonstrate in my own work, one does not have to engage in any special pleading to make a rational and standard Egyptological case for the Book of Abraham -- Smith, Robert F., “A Brief Assessment of the LDS Book of Abraham,” version 10 online Mar 21, 2019, at https://www.scribd.com/document/118810727/A-Brief-Assessment-of-the-LDS-Book-of-Abraham .

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

.....................................

Once Gee's info is switched to his new department, I am assuming his status as a full time professor, etc. should be confirmed or not on the department directory.  Maxwell Institute isn't set up that way, he is a Senior Research Fellow there:..............................

NAMI listed him, until the time of his leaving, as "a Senior Research Fellow, and the William (Bill) Gay Research Professor at the Maxwell Institute."  Both descriptions apply. 

BYU is not a research university, so NAMI (Maxwell Institute for Religious Research) has a special status, not being headed by a dean, and not holding regular classes for students.  UCLA, by contrast, is a research university, and so is focused on graduate and faculty research projects.

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2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Wow, so it sounds like he's just a regular adjunct instructor then?  That would be quite the fall from his position at the MI.  I'm assuming you got this quote from Dan's blog, do you know if the person who posted this is a credible source?  

Why would anyone believe an anonymous troll?

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, I would think you could tell when they update his profile if he's a tenured professor or not.  Maybe I'm wrong, can anyone comment on whether this is public knowledge for BYU instructors?    

You might want to be a little more skeptical about all the rumors.  Making Gee an adjunct instructor?  Really?  And you don't even know that the term "tenure" does not apply to BYU.  Have you even studied at a university?

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9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Why would anyone believe an anonymous troll?

You might want to be a little more skeptical about all the rumors.  Making Gee an adjunct instructor?  Really?  And you don't even know that the term "tenure" does not apply to BYU.  Have you even studied at a university?

I asked whether the person getting the quote from Dan's blog knew if the poster was credible or not.  I'm not just buying some random post hook, line, and sinker.  I also asked if someone knew whether we could verify Gee's status with BYU.  Even though you quoted my comments, its almost like you missed the parts of my comments that show that I'm asking questions and being skeptical about what was said.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Roger, roger.

What's our vector, Victor?

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4 hours ago, Thinking said:

I think that most of us have known somebody who was forced out of a position, but the "official" statement released by those in power told a different story. About 20 years ago, a head coach at the high school where I teach was forced out - told to resign. The administration wrote a communication for the press and used the same communication for the school wide email. The gist of it was that he resigned because he wanted to spend more time with his family. He told me that the administration told him to resign or be fired from his coaching position. If he resigned, he could keep the extra class he was teaching ($6,000+ per year). If he was fired, he would lose the extra class.

And this relates to this thread topic how, exactly? 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

you know if the person who posted this is a credible source?  

That is his one and only post so far under that name and he has given no indication of who he might be or where his knowledge might come from, so in my view he has no credibility at all.

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

What's our vector, Victor?

214.88m

Edited by rodheadlee
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