How far do you take agency?

[changed]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 yet I remain in and part of the organization. Being at the highest stage is exhilarating! 

Haha -   "commitment in the face of uncertainty at Level 6, and finally the undertaking of such commitments and coming to terms with their implications at Levels 7–9", bravo.  

 

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If the dominant instructional paradigm in pre-9 college education is based on the notion that the teacher’s job is to impart information and the students’ job is to absorb and repeat it, and if this is the only type of instruction students see in their K-12 education and its validity is not contradicted in their homes, they are likely to enter college as received knowers (dualists) and to be resistant to efforts to change them. On the other hand, if they are subjected to schooling that encourages and facilitates independent, critical, and creative thinking, they are much more likely to enter college at higher developmental levels...

I'm in a mixed-faith marriage, so our kids are exposed to lively discussions and contradictory sources at home - would you consider this to be a good thing for them?

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"As they go through college, most students undergo a developmental progression in their attitudes toward teaching, learning, and knowing. Four models described in this paper, formulated by Perry [3], Belenky et al. [15], King and Kitchener [17], and Baxter Magolda [20], outline the course of this progression. The models differ in some details, but paint a more or less consistent picture. Many students enter college at the level of (in the terminology of Baxter Magolda) absolute knowing, believing that knowledge is certain, authorities (competent teachers) have the knowledge and the responsibility to communicate it, and the students’ job is to absorb it and repeat it. As they experience the stimulations and challenges of their college courses and extracurricular activities, the students may progress through some or all of several successive stages in which they gradually relinquish their belief in the certainty of knowledge and the omniscience of authorities, recognize the necessity of making judgments based on evidence, and become increasingly adept at gathering and analyzing the evidence. There are two patterns of development described in the models, one characteristic of more women than men and the other of more men than women, but the final level, which Baxter Magolda terms contextual knowing, is the endpoint of both patterns. At this level, individuals reject the notion of absolute truth and recognize that all knowledge is contextual. They take responsibility for making their own judgments, gather and interpret evidence from a wide variety of sources (research, personal experience, and ideas of others whose expertise they acknowledge), and accept that their judgments must be considered conditional and liable to change if new evidence is forthcoming."

I have a hard time seeing those within the church being described by the above.  Seem to be too attached to authority figures, not willing to use multiple sources for research (just get everything from the church - don't read any ex-mo stuff etc. etc.), and also being willing to change their viewpoints?

 

Iknow, I know - Perry [3], Belenky et al. [15], King and Kitchener [17], and Baxter Magolda and all the rest did not know what they were talking about.  It's all total hogwash.  Absolute truth exists, authority figures like the prophet exist

Edited May 29, 2019 by changed

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, changed said:

Haha -   "commitment in the face of uncertainty at Level 6, and finally the undertaking of such commitments and coming to terms with their implications at Levels 7–9", bravo.  

 

I'm in a mixed-faith marriage, so our kids are exposed to lively discussions and contradictory sources at home - would you consider this to be a good thing for them?

Time will tell. As the man said, when the tide goes out we can see who isn't wearing their swimsuit. Hopefully they will be equipped to deal with the uncertainty of life.

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I have a hard time seeing those within the church being described by the above.  Seem to be too attached to authority figures, not willing to use multiple sources for research (just get everything from the church - don't read any ex-mo stuff etc. etc.), and also being willing to change their viewpoints?

Frankly, I feel no obligation to read any more ex-mo stuff, etc., than I have already read over the past 50 years. I think I have given it a chance and found it wanting. None of it has proposed something better than what I have. Its purpose seems just to tear down.

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I know, I know - Perry [3], Belenky et al. [15], King and Kitchener [17], and Baxter Magolda and all the rest did not know what they were talking about.  It's all total hogwash.  Absolute truth exists, authority figures like the prophet exist

Perhaps they know what they are talking about. I'm sure they are very smart. Wouldn't that make them authority figures like the prophets? Reminds me of the old bumper sticker: "Question Authority!" "Says who?" I ask.

For me, the absolute truth is that which I have learned from the Spirit. I think we all need something to anchor us when the storms blow in. During times of uncertainty, I rely on a few basic things that for me are absolutely true. That lesson has been hard-won.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[changed]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Time will tell. As the man said, when the tide goes out we can see who isn't wearing their swimsuit. Hopefully they will be equipped to deal with the uncertainty of life.

Frankly, I feel no more obligation to read any more ex-mo stuff, etc., than I have already read over the past 50 years. I think I have given it a chance and found it wanting. None of it has proposed something better than what I have. Its purpose seems just to tear down.

Perhaps they know what they are talking about. I'm sure they are very smart. Wouldn't that make them authority figures like the prophets? Reminds me of the old bumper sticker: "Question Authority!" "Says who?" I ask.

For me, the absolute truth is that which I have learned from the Spirit. I think we all need something to anchor us when the storms blow in. In times of uncertainty, I rely on a few basic things that for me are absolutely true. That lesson has be hard-won.

 

Well - funny thing, my inactivity has made others give the kids extra attention which they love of course, everyone loves attention.  Teenagers tend to rebel against their parents, in our case they are rebelling against me by staying faithful - LOL - sitting through seminary graduation, my kids were there graduating, while the kids of our current leaders were not   That is totally fine - I will support the kids in whatever they choose to do - they have an actual choice in the matter because my DH and I are religiously diverse, which is a good thing.  

Not just what some consider "ex" stuff - I read quite a bit from other religious groups, have met with a few other groups - I suppose that gives everyone their agency, all the different groups out there?  (If parents and social groups allow exploration). 

Made by God vs made by mankind ... just seems like the "only one way to do things, everyone needs to adhere to the same church" idea isn't what is happening, so must not be what God designed...  God set this world up, God allowed for all the diversity, God directs everyone, right?

It appears agency respects choices, embraces diversity, includes all the colors of the rainbow, in everything.  

Edited May 30, 2019 by changed

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Well - funny thing, my inactivity has made others give the kids extra attention which they love of course, everyone loves attention.  Teenagers tend to rebel against their parents, in our case they are rebelling against me by staying faithful - LOL - sitting through seminary graduation, my kids were there graduating, while the kids of our current leaders were not   That is totally fine - I will support the kids in whatever they choose to do - they have an actual choice in the matter because my DH and I are religiously diverse, which is a good thing.  

I hope that works out well for your family. Being united in our faith has been crucial as Sister Gui and I have weathered some intense storms and enjoyed some peaceful cruising.

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Not just what some consider "ex" stuff - I read quite a bit from other religious groups, have met with a few other groups - I suppose that gives everyone their agency, all the different groups out there?  (If parents and social groups allow exploration). 

That’s a good thing.

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Made by God vs made by mankind ... just seems like the "only one way to do things, everyone needs to adhere to the same church" idea isn't what is happening, so must not be what God designed...  God set this world up, God allowed for all the diversity, God directs everyone, right?

That’s the doctrine taught in the Book of Mormon, but ultimately there will be only one path to eternal life.....through the Lord Jesus Christ.  Not by coercion but by love.

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It appears agency respects choices, embraces diversity, includes all the colors of the rainbow, in everything.  

Choice and accountability are warp and weft.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[changed]

37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 but ultimately there will be only one path to eternal life.....

We all walk different paths, but are all guided and directed by the same conscience - the same light of Christ.  Jesus died for all humankind, it makes sense to expect a diverse eternal life - with no respecter of persons or hierarchy of persons - for all, with all tears wiped away, and a fullness of joy for all - reunited families for all.    

Edited May 30, 2019 by changed

[Calm]

 

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It appears agency respects choices, embraces diversity, includes all the colors of the rainbow, in everything.  

Not quite an accurate analogy....each bunny made by God follows the pattern of its parents, so groups of bunnies are very similar if not identical.

And chocolate bunnies come in many varieties.  There is no "one true bunny"

https://www.chocolatefetish.com/2017/04/04/handmade-chocolate-bunnies/

Other things created by God seem rather "my way or the highway" though to me.  Think Law of Gravity for example. Don't see much diversity there.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Calm

[Stargazer]

On 5/27/2019 at 6:53 PM, JLHPROF said:

Journal of Discourses 3:109

Thanks for that. I have been reading that talk, and it is very interesting indeed.  I found a site online that has the JoD.  This Kimball talk is at http://www.jhuston.com/Documents/jd3.pdf, a talk given on March 19, 1854.

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/1/2019 at 1:53 PM, Stargazer said:

Thanks for that. I have been reading that talk, and it is very interesting indeed.  I found a site online that has the JoD.  This Kimball talk is at http://www.jhuston.com/Documents/jd3.pdf, a talk given on March 19, 1854.

Interesting reading in the JoD, no?