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theplains

The pre-mortal life and progression

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Since the commandment to reproduce occurs prior to the tree/fruit commandment, does that necessarily give it primacy?

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Since the commandment to reproduce occurs prior to the tree/fruit commandment, does that necessarily give it primacy?

Well I think so because the second commandment then sets up the conflict and the twist in how the first is to be done. 

It's "Do this". Ok no problem.

But then, "Oh, by the way, you have some restrictions...."

Adam just salutes dutifully, and sees no problem, but Eve sees it immediately and has to solve the puzzle.

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10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I think so because the second commandment then sets up the conflict and the twist in how the first is to be done. 

It's "Do this". Ok no problem.

But then, "Oh, by the way, you have some restrictions...."

Adam just salutes dutifully, and sees no problem, but Eve sees it immediately and has to solve the puzzle.

And she made the leap of faith, because no way could she have been sure she got it right, with billions of souls depending on her getting it right.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Look at Moses 3:16, 17

God gave Adam an ambiguous commandment if we want to use that word. On one hand he said do not eat of the fruit of the tree, but on the other hand he said it is given unto thee. In the book of Moses at that time Eve had not even been created. However in the temple account she had been so there is a clarification there and the temple material which of course we will not discuss in detail.

16 - And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely 
     eat,
17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou 
     mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the
     day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Right after God telling Adam that he was not permitted to eat from the forbidden tree, why did 
He remind him again that He forbade it?

Why did He not want Adam to die?

Thanks,
Jim

Edited by theplains
grammar

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

And she made the leap of faith, because no way could she have been sure she got it right, with billions of souls depending on her getting it right.

They should show MORE tears!

Just a little stress, there, hey?

Not to mention she was getting advice from Satan?!?

Perfect illustration of why men need women in their lives. They are the subtle thinkers. And I suppose I will get flagged for that comment but such is life.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, theplains said:

16 - And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely 
     eat,
17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou 
     mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the
     day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Right after God telling Adam that he was not permitted to eat from the forbidden tree, why did 
He remind him again that He forbade it?

Why did He not want Adam to die?

 

The real question is what he meant by  "it is given to you".

Why would he say that if he was really for bidding it? Was it for them or not? What would you do with that situation? If you knew you could not fulfill both Commandments to reproduce and to not eat of the fruit?

Eve figured out that was the only way to do both.

Sorry there's more to the story and we believe it is figurative. That was deliberately stated in previous Temple versions.

They had the previous commandment it to reproduce. They could not do that in the garden. God knew of course that he would choose as he did and that was the whole purpose for the Plan of Salvation. That we would come here to live by faith and make the right or wrong decisions and be saved by the savior. It was all a test. You don't give out the answers to the test before the test is taken. But again it is figurative.

And Adam did in fact die within a thousand years which is one day for the Lord.

Edited by mfbukowski
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18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Eve saw the only solution is to to partake of the fruit, to make it possible for them to reproduce, and fulfill the other commandment God gave them.

It's not clear but it's possible that Eve saw that God actually wanted them to leave the garden so they could have free agency to make decisions.

I feel that these aspects of what you say "Eve saw" are theoretical in nature. 

They already had free agency to make decisions - to obey or to disobey God; to have
dominion over His creation or not; to interact with each other as a married couple 
or not.

There never was a thought in Eve's mind that she would leave the Garden because that
was not discussed in their warning of punishment. It is not recorded.

God said to Eve - What is this that thou hast done? 
Eve replied - The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

If you believe Eve thought God actually wanted them to leave the garden, why didn't she say in response to God's question 
"because I think you wanted us to eat so that we could leave the garden."?

Instead, Adam and Eve play the "blame game."

In the book of Moses at that time Eve had not even been created. However in the temple account she had been so there is a clarification there and the temple material which of course we will not discuss in detail.

Adam was created first and then placed in the Garden. Eve was created in the Garden.

Do you believe this?

Jim

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Just now, mfbukowski said:

Sorry there's more to the story and we believe it is figurative. That was deliberately stated in previous Temple versions.

Thanks for that clarification.

Jim

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7 minutes ago, theplains said:

I feel that these aspects of what you say "Eve saw" are theoretical in nature. 

They already had free agency to make decisions - to obey or to disobey God; to have
dominion over His creation or not; to interact with each other as a married couple 
or not.

There never was a thought in Eve's mind that she would leave the Garden because that
was not discussed in their warning of punishment. It is not recorded.

God said to Eve - What is this that thou hast done? 
Eve replied - The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

If you believe Eve thought God actually wanted them to leave the garden, why didn't she say in response to God's question 
"because I think you wanted us to eat so that we could leave the garden."?

Instead, Adam and Eve play the "blame game."

 

 

Adam was created first and then placed in the Garden. Eve was created in the Garden.

Do you believe this?

Jim

There is more in the temple account. Explaining this.

And I don't want to get into the created /uncreated problem.

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7 minutes ago, theplains said:

Thanks for that clarification.

Jim

No problem, anytime!

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26 minutes ago, theplains said:

16 - And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely 
     eat,
17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou 
     mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the
     day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Right after God telling Adam that he was not permitted to eat from the forbidden tree, why did 
He remind him again that He forbade it?

Why did He not want Adam to die?

Thanks,
Jim

And Commissioner Gordon did say unto them, "He has to run, because we have to chase him."

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On 6/1/2019 at 2:33 PM, mfbukowski said:

The real question is what he meant by  "it is given to you".

Why would he say that if he was really for bidding it? Was it for them or not? What would you do with that situation? If you knew you could not fulfill both Commandments to reproduce and to not eat of the fruit?

 

nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee;

"It is given unto thee" is a reference to what just precedes it - 'it' is the choice (free will) to obey or disobey.
That's why God commanded him not to eat and then reiterated with, "but remember, I forbid it."   

If God commanded me not to eat from that tree and then gave me the free will to obey or disobey, I would
obey and not eat.

There is nothing to indicate Adam and Eve did not have the ability to procreate when they are commanded
to - the animals were given the same command.  Do you believe the animals had ability to procreate before
the Fall?

Getting back to one of my original questions - why did God not want Adam to die?

Thanks,
Jim

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G-d predicted death as a consequence of entering the world we know. Armed with that knowledge, Eve chose to leave Eden's cozy womb of her own free will, not certain that Adam would follow her. Did Adam fear loneliness more than death, or did he see what Eve saw, and embrace the possibilities of the world we know?

G-d wanted Adam and Eve to live and die. What's so awful about that?

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51 minutes ago, theplains said:

nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee;

"It is given unto thee" is a reference to what just precedes it - 'it' is the choice (free will) to obey or disobey.
That's why God commanded him not to eat and then reiterated with, "but remember, I forbid it."   

If God commanded me not to eat from that tree and then gave me the free will to obey or disobey, I would
obey and not eat.

There is nothing to indicate Adam and Eve did not have the ability to procreate when they are commanded
to - the animals were given the same command.  Do you believe the animals had ability to procreate before
the Fall?

Getting back to one of my original questions - why did God not want Adam to die?

Thanks,
Jim

The problem was Eve ate first.

She would be expelled from the garden and they could not reproduce because she would not be there.

It wasn't really about the choice to eat or not eat. The statement was "it is given thee." They were free to choose a consequence of eating it and then dying.

So the choice was to eat it, reproduce and die, or to never be able to reproduce because Eve was gone.

The purpose of creation was to provide a home for Humanity. Without that objective ful filled, creation would have been wasted. That is why Malachi speaks of the Earth being cursed if the hearts of the fathers were not turned to the children and vice versa.Moroni used the word "wasted" instead of cursed. The whole purpose of creation was having forever families.

" This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Without choice and Redemption that could not happen.

But the mission could still be fulfilled except they would have to die. That was the choice they made. But when father saw that they made that decision he promised that he would send a savior so that both goals could be fulfilled. They chose to die yet through Christ they would live again.

Father's never said he did not want Adam to die

All he said was a straightforward factual statement if you eat of the tree you will die. Yes it was ambiguous because he forbade it and yet he said it is given unto thee. The reason for that Ambiguity was so that they would have to make a choice.

Father could not command them to sin or else he would be the author of sin and could not be God, so he told them what would happen in each case and they made the choice.

He gave them the consequences and they decided.

It is clear in the temple that Eve knew both sets of consequences and decided intelligently between them, with regret and trepidation nevertheless that she made the right decision for humanity

Now Humanity could come to Earth and have a true choice to sin or not sin and bear the consequences and be tested. Otherwise they could never choose the plan of happiness. It would just automatically happen, and they would lose and fail the test. It is said that that was Satan's plan not Father's. Satan's plan it is said was that all would return to father but not have a choice in the matter. They would in effect be robots who all went to Earth and then came back to Father without ever being tempted or having to make a decision.

Again we must remember that it was said that the story is figurative.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, theplains said:

"It is given unto thee" is a reference to what just precedes it - 'it' is the choice (free will) to obey or disobey.

My interpretation is that it was the fruit that was given to them. Of course they had a choice but that wasn't the point. The choice was about eating of a fruit or not eating it.

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On 6/1/2019 at 11:34 AM, theplains said:

I feel that these aspects of what you say "Eve saw" are theoretical in nature

They are explicit in the temple 

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Posted (edited)

If entering the world we know is a matter of man's choice, man is responsible for his situation therein. Freedom of choice is thus nonillusory. And we have no one to blame but ourselves for our lot.

Edited by USU78

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

They would in effect be robots who all went to Earth and then came back to Father without ever being tempted or having to make a decision.

Or without law at all (no law, no sin) and thus unable to receive blessings (every blessing is predicated on a law).

Either case cripples humanity's ability to progress.

Edited by Calm
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16 hours ago, theplains said:

nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee;

"It is given unto thee" is a reference to what just precedes it - 'it' is the choice (free will) to obey or disobey.
That's why God commanded him not to eat and then reiterated with, "but remember, I forbid it."   

If God commanded me not to eat from that tree and then gave me the free will to obey or disobey, I would
obey and not eat.

There is nothing to indicate Adam and Eve did not have the ability to procreate when they are commanded
to - the animals were given the same command.  Do you believe the animals had ability to procreate before
the Fall?

I believe so. That is why I believe the BoM clarifies and says that the fall brought about spiritual death - or the second death. 

2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they aknow good from evil. And the blaw is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is cjustified; or, by the law men are dcut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

13 And if ye shall say there is ano law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery.

As I have indicated, the law was introduced to Adam in the garden. Without it man could not be begotten by God. Adam is our teacher and father in this regard. Anyone who lived before Adam became man, was innocent before God. The story is likening Adam to God, who also went through the same thing in order to gain His knowledge, and thus, Gen 3:22 says "now man has become one of us, knowing good and evil."  It's actually pretty deep, but most of modern Christianity misses it - laying the blame on Adam for "original sin" rather than any praise for showing us the way to become as YHWH Elohim.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/28/2019 at 5:12 PM, theplains said:

What is "the natural man"?

The "Natural Man" is that part of us which clings to all the things of mortality such that we are willing to ignore the things of Eternity.

Whatever Adam and Eve did, it was something that meant they cared about something in mortality more than they cared about the things of God.

Edited by Carborendum

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2019 at 8:16 PM, mfbukowski said:

The problem was Eve ate first.

She would be expelled from the garden and they could not reproduce because she would not be there.

Again we must remember that it was said that the story is figurative.

Where do you get the impression that a change (or changes) came upon Eve (which she
realized) when she first ate before Adam?

Why did God remind Adam that he forbade eating from the forbidden tree when He had
already commanded him not to eat from it?

Thanks,
Jim

Edited by theplains
inserted context

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, theplains said:

Where do you get the impression that a change (or changes) came upon Eve (which she
realized) when she first ate before Adam?

Why did God remind Adam that he forbade eating from the forbidden tree when He had
already commanded him not to eat from it?

Thanks,
Jim

I want to answer your questions to the best of my ability but I am not sure what you are asking here.

As I have said before, this story is modified in the temple from sources open to you.

1. Satan tempts Adam with eating the fruit.  

2. Adam rejects Satan outright- no discussion.

3. Satan goes to Eve and there is a longer discussion.  He tells her that if she eats she will understand that everything has its opposite, and other things.  She is doubtful at first but then is convinced (on her own) that she should partake.  She does.  He tells her he is her brother.  She is suspicious but is taken in by the argument

4. She returns to Adam and points out that she will be cast out because she has partaken of the fruit, and explains that therefore they will not be able to honor the other commandment- multiplying and replenishing the earth.

5. Through the discussion Adam comprehends the importance of partaking in the fruit, so that humankind can exist, and experience both the good and bad of life, and make their own choices.  He partakes.  Eve then can recognize that "her brother" was Lucifer, who was cast out for rebellion.

6. God re appears, condemns Satan, casts him out and tells Adam and Eve that He will provide a Savior 

7. They are expelled from the Garden into the world as we know it today, full of trials and triumphs.

I don't know if that answers your first question or not.

Regarding God reminding Adam, I am not sure what you mean or why it is important.  A reference might help.

Edited by mfbukowski
badly phrased, made it sound as if Adam is Satan
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On 6/4/2019 at 6:55 PM, USU78 said:

G-d predicted death as a consequence of entering the world we know. Armed with that knowledge, Eve chose to leave Eden's cozy womb of her own free will, not certain that Adam would follow her. Did Adam fear loneliness more than death, or did he see what Eve saw, and embrace the possibilities of the world we know?

G-d wanted Adam and Eve to live and die. What's so awful about that?

Or maybe it was not loneliness or death that motivated him. I like to think it was love.

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28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Or maybe it was not loneliness or death that motivated him. I like to think it was love.

That certainly is one of the "possibilities" I had in mind.

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On 6/7/2019 at 3:26 PM, mfbukowski said:

Regarding God reminding Adam, I am not sure what you mean or why it is important.  A reference might help.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest
choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die
."

Why did God tell Adam not to eat from the forbidden tree and then remind him (emphasize again) in
the same sentence that He forbade it (bolded part)?   To me it says that while God is telling him that he
is free to choose to obey or disobey (as we do with all the commands given to us), God re-emphasized
that He forbade Adam from eating of that tree.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Jim

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