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Jean-Luc Picard

Church donation to mosque in Christchurch

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This is a wonderful gesture. I do admire that.  This will help community and also other areas of church diplomacy. 

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How do you teach people about the Savior in a mosque?

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15 hours ago, tulip said:

How do you teach people about the Savior in a mosque?

St. Paul was able to do it in a pagan pantheon :)

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covering our pictures in our church building.   

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Posted (edited)

Bravo to the Saints who took the time to consider the comfort of the Muslims they invited to worship in their church building.  My understanding is that many Muslims avoid using realistic pictures of humans in their religious spaces, so it makes sense that if one wants them to view the room as a place of worship to cover any pictures.

It would be similar imo to Catholics inviting Saints to use a room at their church and covering (or removing if covering is inappropriate) any crucifix in that room because they are aware that many Saints are uncomfortable with crucifixes and they are not a part of our worship.

Edited by Calm
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On 5/23/2019 at 1:09 AM, Calm said:

Bravo to the Saints who took the time to consider the comfort of the Muslims they invited to worship in their church building.  My understanding is that many Muslims avoid using realistic pictures of humans in their religious spaces, so it makes sense that if one wants them to view the room as a place of worship to cover any pictures.

It would be similar imo to Catholics inviting Saints to use a room at their church and covering any crucifix in that room because they are aware that many Saints are uncomfortable with crucifixes and they are not a part of our worship.

Nice!

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On 5/22/2019 at 11:11 PM, tulip said:

covering our pictures in our church building.   

That makes sense. 

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On 5/22/2019 at 1:09 AM, tulip said:

How do you teach people about the Savior in a mosque?

By loving them like He did

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2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

By loving them like He did

Yup, and I believe they believe he was a prophet, right? 

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18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Yup, and I believe they believe he was a prophet, right? 

Yes, they believe he was only a prophet, one of the most significant of the prophets. Yet, he is only a prophet and not the Son of God as believed in Christianity. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/28/2019 at 3:20 PM, Storm Rider said:

Yes, they believe he was only a prophet, one of the most significant of the prophets. Yet, he is only a prophet and not the Son of God as believed in Christianity. 

Line upon line.  “17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower...”. From Matt. 13.

Our son was at a meeting in Dubai where Elder Holland was asked about the state of the Muslim faith.  He said it was a “preparatory religion.”  Asked if he had more information on the subject, he said “No, this is the first I’ve heard of it,” or words to that effect.  

Edited by Meerkat

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1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

Line upon line.  “17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower...”. From Matt. 13.

Our son was at a meeting in Dubai where Elder Holland was asked about the state of the Moslem faith.  He said it was a “preparatory religion.”  Asked if he had more information on the subject, he said “No, this is the first I’ve heard of it,” or words to that effect.  

I think I can understand that perspective. It is in the same perspective that identifies that all religions of the world teach some degree of truth and are preparatory to receiving the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Islam is a in a unique position in that it is built upon Judaism and Christianity. In many ways, I would say that it is one of the great heresies of the world. It took the gospel of Christ and made the Savior less than the Son of God. 

I have said many times that I found a great deal of beauty within Islam. I believe in practicing Islam one can be a righteous follower of God the Father. However, if one strictly observes the Qur'an then one will become a zealot and what we think of as a terrorist. The idea that a radical Islam exists is a misnomer - to be a complete follower of Islam is to enter into and support Jihad. Those that do not do so are ignoring basic tenants of the faith. One does not become a radicalized Muslim - rather one embraces Islam completely. I thank God that we have the majority of the followers of Islam that tend to take a more nuanced path of observing Islam's tenants. 

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8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I have said many times that I found a great deal of beauty within Islam. I believe in practicing Islam one can be a righteous follower of God the Father.

to be a complete follower of Islam is to enter into and support Jihad. Those that do not do so are ignoring basic tenants of the faith. One does not become a radicalized Muslim - rather one embraces Islam completely. I thank God that we have the majority of the followers of Islam that tend to take a more nuanced path of observing Islam's tenants. 

I don’t know much about Islam.  Even a small number of radicals can cause problems for everyone, in my opinion.  Based on our son’s experience, and others who have lived in the Middle East, most Muslims they’ve known are good, kind people who embrace family values similar to ours.  I have known some in the USA who appear to be kind and friendly, who I would lock arms with.  Many people go through many years without knowing Christ.  That is what Doctrine and Covenants 138 is all about.  Bottom line, treat people the way we want to be treated.

From Alma 41:

14 “Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.
15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.”

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16 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I don’t know much about Islam.  Even a small number of radicals can cause problems for everyone, in my opinion.  Based on our son’s experience, and others who have lived in the Middle East, most Muslims they’ve known are good, kind people who embrace family values similar to ours.  I have known some in the USA who appear to be kind and friendly, who I would lock arms with.  Many people go through many years without knowing Christ.  That is what Doctrine and Covenants 138 is all about.  Bottom line, treat people the way we want to be treated.

From Alma 41:

14 “Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.
15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.”

Meerkat, I lived in the Middle East for just shy of 8 years - Abu Dhabi and Doha. I traveled extensively throughout the GCC and and Northern Africa. Your son's experience with Muslims is the same as mine. I have many close friends that are Muslims. However, that does not negate anything I stated in my previous post....as long as we are talking about Sunni and Shi'a Islam. 

I have read the Qur'an, the Hadith or the writings of Muhammad, and the writings of the first four rightly guided Caliphs - Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali.  Nothing that the terrorists have done today is new. Each atrocity was committed by these leaders as the righteous actions of Muslims and necessary to serve Allah. 

The point is that a Muslim who fully engages with teachings of Muhammad will be what we call a radical today.  None of my friends take Islam so seriously. They each believe faithfully in Allah, but tend to avoid some of the more extreme teachings of the Muhammad and of the Qur'an. This stance is nothing different than the way Christians observe the teachings of Jesus Christ and his teachings. 

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3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Meerkat, I lived in the Middle East for just shy of 8 years - Abu Dhabi and Doha. I traveled extensively throughout the GCC and and Northern Africa. Your son's experience with Muslims is the same as mine. I have many close friends that are Muslims. However, that does not negate anything I stated in my previous post....as long as we are talking about Sunni and Shi'a Islam. 

I have read the Qur'an, the Hadith or the writings of Muhammad, and the writings of the first four rightly guided Caliphs - Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali.  Nothing that the terrorists have done today is new. Each atrocity was committed by these leaders as the righteous actions of Muslims and necessary to serve Allah. 

The point is that a Muslim who fully engages with teachings of Muhammad will be what we call a radical today.  None of my friends take Islam so seriously. They each believe faithfully in Allah, but tend to avoid some of the more extreme teachings of the Muhammad and of the Qur'an. This stance is nothing different than the way Christians observe the teachings of Jesus Christ and his teachings. 

Everything you say makes sense.  How should the Church of Jesus Christ relate differently to Islam and governments in the Middle East than it is already doing?

 

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41 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Each atrocity was committed by these leaders as the righteous actions of Muslims and necessary to serve Allah. 

Kind of like the Old Testsment then...

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Kind of like the Old Testsment then...

I think we can draw similarities, but they would be strained for the most part. Slavery was known in the society, but it was not a tenant of the religion - within Islam it is taught who to enslave and what uses they may have. There is not a relative teaching to jihad in the OT - obviously, within Islam it is a major teaching. Islam expanded by the sword rather than by sending out missionaries or having an evangelical push or process. The economies were slightly different also. People of the Book - Christians and Jews - were taxed if they lived within Muslim society without converting. This list could be on for some time.

If you are trying to say that atrocities were committed in the OT and Muslims commit atrocities, then yes; there are similarities. The motivations for the atrocities differ widely.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Everything you say makes sense.  How should the Church of Jesus Christ relate differently to Islam and governments in the Middle East than it is already doing?

Meerkat, I don't think the Leaders of the Church should do anything differently. We walk on eggshells out of necessity. Our role is to shepherd the saints in Muslim lands and that is vitally important for those saints. To do so, we need the best possible relationships with all Muslim governments.

Edited by Storm Rider
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

If you are trying to say that atrocities were committed in the OT and Muslims commit atrocities, then yes; there are similarities. The motivations for the atrocities differ widely.

Some of the atrocities of the OT were said to be from God’s commands. 

Focusing on certain parts of the OT including some said to be God’s laws would result at times in pretty brutal behaviour (stoning for adultery could include a woman raped in town if she was too frightened to cry out, for example).

Edited by Calm

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10 hours ago, Calm said:

Some of the atrocities of the OT were said to be from God’s commands. 

Focusing on certain parts of the OT including some said to be God’s laws would result at times in pretty brutal behaviour (stoning for adultery could include a woman raped in town if she was too frightened to cry out, for example).

I don't think we are disagreeing and I am fully cognizant of the actions of the ancient Israelites in the OT; however, I still think the relationship is tenuous. I am not aware of Jews lopping off the heads of infidels today, for example. One is in ancient times and the other continues the practice today. 

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2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't think we are disagreeing and I am fully cognizant of the actions of the ancient Israelites in the OT; however, I still think the relationship is tenuous. I am not aware of Jews lopping off the heads of infidels today, for example. One is in ancient times and the other continues the practice today. 

It just means imo there is possibly nothing inherent in Islam's sacred texts that requires atrocities.  They could in time move into interpretation that allows them to put aside such rules as do modern Jews with some of the laws of the Torah, etc.

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23 minutes ago, Calm said:

It just means imo there is possibly nothing inherent in Islam's sacred texts that requires atrocities.  They could in time move into interpretation that allows them to put aside such rules as do modern Jews with some of the laws of the Torah, etc.

They have yet to put aside Jihad. I do hear they think it is wrong to kill innocent people, but they never condemn a suicide bomber or martyr, nor do they state that such individuals will go to hell rather than paradise. Martyrdom remains highly respected and revered. 

Is it possible they could disown these tenants of their religion?  Under the saying, "Anything is possible", then yes, it is possible. However, for it to change the Qur'an would need to re-written along with the Hadith. I am not sure you appreciate what a stretch this is. It involves almost all of their beliefs about the end of times, what will be demanded of them. 

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