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bsjkki

“BYU announces 'improvements' following Honor Code Office protests

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Posted (edited)

And now there is a recording. One sided since the student wants to remain anonymous. I’m trying to track down BYU’s response to this which is discussed in the second link but can’t see it on my mobile format.

Sorry, it’s okay to think this is wrong and not be an apostate. Sometimes I feel people think that if you disagree with a church policy it means you’re less than faithful. I believe this is not true. The change with November 2015 policy and the change in the marriage policy are two I completely support. Also, BYU changed the response to sexual assault victims and implemented the amnesty clause. It’s okay to want changes to policies.

This is another area in which changes could and should be more to bring these policies to a point we are not doing harm. I can’t imagine why having this type of conversation should ever happen especially by phone. I’m not sure what training these honor code office people are required to have but they should not do interviews like this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxSSBVFHUbq/?hl=en

 

Edited by bsjkki
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Posted (edited)

Has it been confirmed in some manner it is for real?

Edited by Calm

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Has it been confirmed in some manner it is for real?

Here is the second link with the dads response. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxVYFwtnZmn/?hl=en

It states they added BYU’s response to the call so I think it is real. But, I will have to see if I can see that response on my computer because it’s not showing up on my mobile device. 

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10 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Interesting but I’m somewhat dismayed these so-called improvements did not already exist. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900070649/byu-honor-code-office-director-outlines-changes.amp

“• Students will now be told during their first contact with the office what they were being accused of.

"I want to reiterate that you will not be presumed in violation of an honor code policy unless you either accept responsibility or the investigation process makes such a determination," Utt wrote.

• Accused students will be given the names of those making the allegations against them, "except in situations where it is a matter of safety to a member of our campus community."

• Students will be told from the beginning what they can expect from the investigation process and what support resources are available.”

Knowing these are ‘improvements’ makes me question what processes were in place before. 

Another example of where activism is often a very important dynamic in pushing for change in this culture.  These look like good changes, but much more change is needed.  Hopefully this is a sign of more to come.  

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Dad of homeschooled kids here.  The homeschooling version of this, is some nosy neighbor reports us to CPS, and a social worker has to do an investigation.  Sometimes the allegation is "we had an anonymous tip that you're not meeting your kids educational needs".  There have been, over the decades, in some states, various horror stories coming from parents when this happens.  Social workers coming with cops and traumatizing everyone, children interviewed without parent's permission or even their knowledge, social workers lying about why they're there, social workers violating constitutional rights of parents, etc.     These days, (after a bunch of costly and embarrassing lawsuits were lost), most social workers are trained in policies that look an awful lot like the bullet points here in this thread. 

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Posted (edited)

While I think the changes were probably necessary, it's too bad the Honor Code Office will be deprived of the extremely effective "you were accused of something, so why don't you confess instead of making us tell you what it was" interrogation technique.

It also appears that they might not have thought out the impact of letting the accused know who the accusers are.  With anonymous accusers, at least roommates could continue to pretend to be friendly and caring towards their apostate and sinful roommates while secretly trying to get them in trouble.  This new policy will cause all sorts of contention in apartments all over Provo, and since contention is of the devil, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

Edited by cinepro
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17 minutes ago, cinepro said:

While I think the changes were probably necessary, it's too bad the Honor Code Office will be deprived of the extremely effective "you were accused of something, so why don't you confess instead of making us tell you what it was" interrogation technique.

It also appears that they might not have thought out the impact of letting the accused know who the accusers are.  With anonymous accusers, at least roommates could continue to pretend to be friendly and caring towards their apostate and sinful roommates while secretly trying to get them in trouble.  This new policy will cause all sorts of contention in apartments all over Provo, and since contention is of the devil, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

Again, the Honor Code needs to add a “Snitches get Stitches” proviso. I know there are exceptions when something should be reported but Paul’s admonition not to be busybodies seems particularly relevant.

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Disclosure + consent = no moral or ethical basis for complaint. 

Butch up, kiddies.  The place ain't for the likes of me, but it's not like any of this has ever been a big secret.

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13 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Interesting but I’m somewhat dismayed these so-called improvements did not already exist. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900070649/byu-honor-code-office-director-outlines-changes.amp

“• Students will now be told during their first contact with the office what they were being accused of.

"I want to reiterate that you will not be presumed in violation of an honor code policy unless you either accept responsibility or the investigation process makes such a determination," Utt wrote.

• Accused students will be given the names of those making the allegations against them, "except in situations where it is a matter of safety to a member of our campus community."

• Students will be told from the beginning what they can expect from the investigation process and what support resources are available.”

Knowing these are ‘improvements’ makes me question what processes were in place before. 

When I read this, my initial reaction was thinking of the cases of sexual harassment/abuse, etc., brought against young men at other universities. Seems like I have read these types of things where the young man is brought up on violations without knowing his accuser or the exact charges and not able to be represented by an attorney - i.e. not having any support.

It would sadden me if this was the case at BYU, but I am gladdened that these things are not made clear for all parties concerned when potential violations are alleged. 

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10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Disclosure + consent = no moral or ethical basis for complaint. 

Butch up, kiddies.  The place ain't for the likes of me, but it's not like any of this has ever been a big secret.

While I kind of agree that they signed up for it busybodies annoy me and I want that squashed not for the sake of those who willingly submit to it but because those BYU grads might end up in wards I attend.

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12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

While I kind of agree that they signed up for it busybodies annoy me and I want that squashed not for the sake of those who willingly submit to it but because those BYU grads might end up in wards I attend.

And that's why it's not for me.  We, me and thee, accommodate ourselves to those who don't mind living like that.  I do it because I respect their autonomy.  And because I know they don't like, don't see, or don't experience in any meaningful way the seedier side of the honor code.  Snitches should indeed get stitches.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, bsjkki said:

“• Students will now be told during their first contact with the office what they were being accused of.

"I want to reiterate that you will not be presumed in violation of an honor code policy unless you either accept responsibility or the investigation process makes such a determination," Utt wrote.

• Accused students will be given the names of those making the allegations against them, "except in situations where it is a matter of safety to a member of our campus community."

• Students will be told from the beginning what they can expect from the investigation process and what support resources are available.”

Knowing these are ‘improvements’ makes me question what processes were in place before. 

Kind of shocking these weren't in place before. And while the new guy in charge seems to be hitting all the right notes, only time will tell if he also reforms the effective processes. One of the big criticisms of the HCO were its inconsistency and apparently bad apples working there who appeared to have little oversight over them. It'll take time to regain trust.

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Again, the Honor Code needs to add a “Snitches get Stitches” proviso. I know there are exceptions when something should be reported but Paul’s admonition not to be busybodies seems particularly relevant.

Again it depends upon the context. I think it perfectly reasonable for someone in an apartment to report someone who is breaking the honor code within their apartment. They don't have to of course, but it seems completely reasonable to sign up for BYU approved housing and expect to actually have people following the lease agreement.

Likewise if you see someone engaging in the predatory activity the ethically correct thing to do is to report them. Likewise illegal activity such as selling drugs or the like.

 

Edited by clarkgoble
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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 12:38 PM, cinepro said:

While I think the changes were probably necessary, it's too bad the Honor Code Office will be deprived of the extremely effective "you were accused of something, so why don't you confess instead of making us tell you what it was" interrogation technique.

It also appears that they might not have thought out the impact of letting the accused know who the accusers are.  With anonymous accusers, at least roommates could continue to pretend to be friendly and caring towards their apostate and sinful roommates while secretly trying to get them in trouble.  This new policy will cause all sorts of contention in apartments all over Provo, and since contention is of the devil, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

This was also one of Chairman Mao's tactics during the cultural revolution.

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On 5/15/2019 at 3:29 PM, clarkgoble said:

One of the big criticisms of the HCO were its inconsistency and apparently bad apples working there who appeared to have little oversight over them. It'll take time to regain trust.

It's really not surprising.  It's pretty well known that once you give someone power like that, eventually it will be abused.  If only someone would have warned BYU.

 

Oh, wait.  God did.

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Posted (edited)

The problem is more fundamental. You have people whose only job is to investigate violations. Unless they are lazy layabouts try are going to find some incidents worthy of investigating and will use the tools available to ferret it out. You would expect similar results if you assigned a special counselor to a bishop assigned to ferret out matters worthy of church discipline. If they are at all diligent they will definitely find a lot of “possible violations” and probably a few genuine cases. Same thing here.

What I am trying to say is that they should hire lazy people to do the job. On an unrelated note, I am available.

Edited by The Nehor
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, cinepro said:

It's really not surprising.  It's pretty well known that once you give someone power like that, eventually it will be abused.  If only someone would have warned BYU.

I don't think that's necessarily the case since we don't know what internally was going on. However certainly as a practical matter the lack of transparency and clarity contributed to people acting inappropriately. 

22 hours ago, Steve-o said:

This was also one of Chairman Mao's tactics during the cultural revolution.

"And you know who else liked puppies? Hitler!"

On 5/15/2019 at 9:34 AM, The Nehor said:

I think they should rename the code. Do they even know what the “honor system” is?

I hear this one a lot and I think it tends to be confused about the history of the use of the word particularly in these contexts. Rather than leaping to conclusions on my part, why do you explain what you think honor means in this context?

On 5/15/2019 at 11:57 AM, The Nehor said:

Again, the Honor Code needs to add a “Snitches get Stitches” proviso. I know there are exceptions when something should be reported but Paul’s admonition not to be busybodies seems particularly relevant.

Yes that passage in 3 Corinthians about busybodies gets neglected far too much.

Edited by clarkgoble
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