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lostindc

Sad Fast and Testimony Meeting in Virginia

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10 hours ago, lostindc said:

So the video was posting for a rhetorical point?  Really?

yes, and I don't think helping children was on anyone's mind, when this was posted. 

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12 hours ago, lostindc said:

Enjoy playing rhetorical games with a real life mass pedophilia situation.  

Fair enough.  This video isn't one of those.  This video is a real life "seize a captive audience in order to forward an agenda" situation.  The agenda has nothing to do with pedophilia, the agenda is all about smearing the church, using victims as ammo.

TripleN's only regret is he didn't think of this tactic sooner.

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26 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind explaining your cryptic message? Is he posting about this thread somewhere else?

Yeah, there is another board and I am sure he got the video from the person who posted it there as he encouraged all the imbeciles there to follow this thread as he crusades against us. I used to post there and it was bad then and has gone downhill since. I do not recommend going there unless you want to lose your faith in humanity.

I am flirting with the edge of board rules posting this so I will not cross the line with a link or naming the board but OP is not posting this in good faith to share this grievous account to encourage change or to convince members to act. He wants the church destroyed and has said so numerous times.

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12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Love the fact that he didn't follow through...don't ever shut anybody down unless the is profanity or such...if they are members of your ward...you don't shut them down.....guess what...they matter!

They matter but I would still shut them down. Going to recommend we cover incidents like this in a Ward Council training.

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53 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

 

Are you being deliberately obtuse? If you have a degree in rhetoric from the top department in the United States then you know that all of this rhetoric. Think back to your freshman introduction to rhetoric class when they taught you what rhetoric is. We'll go back to good ol' Aristotle for that definition: "the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion." The event itself was rhetoric, the posting of the video here is rhetoric, all the responses back and forth are rhetoric. We are using language to express, convince, and persuade, so it is all rhetoric.

You are like a lawyer filing a legal brief denying that you are doing law.

And I'm not playing games. I'm trying to help. My whole argument has been that if you really want to help the LDS church deal with pedophiles, if you want to show them there is a problem, then you have to do it in a way that will convince them. Look at the definition of rhetoric: you have to select the best of the available means of persuasion. You have to analyze the given case (the LDS church) and figure out the best way to convince.

My claim is that this whole spectacle did this very poorly. Having new name Noah run the show, filming the event for a sensational expose documentary, and posting the video under his youtube channel is NOT going to reach LDS. In fact, it will have the opposite effect. They will not listen to what is being said. That is not their fault; that is the fault of those who orchestrated this.

If you want to reach the LDS, you will need to examine the rhetorical situation and deliver the message in a way that will be convincing. You have to think about your purpose, analyze the audience, and set up your persona (basic rhetorical strategies here). You have to decide how you will present the message, how you will appeal to ethos, pathos, and logos.

This video shows that this wasn't done. The choices made here will obviously turn Mormons off to the whole thing. Again, that is the fault of the presenters. To be associated with new name Noah destroys all ethos (please see my prior post about this) -- the Mormons will not trust any of this because it is being run by a guy who is virulently and terribly anti-Mormon. The people surrounding this event are not on the side of the Mormons, do not have good will, and thus will not be trusted by the Mormons. It was a terrible analysis of the audience. But then again, I wonder if Mormons were the intended audience. My guess is no -- it seems the intended audience is those who want the LDS church to fail.

As I have said, over and over, if you want to help someone, if you want to convince them of something, then you need to do it in a way that will actually convince them. This event did not do that and will not do it. Thus, I can conclude that either the people involved did not think things through or they didn't really want to help the LDS church. Since Noah was involved, it seems the answer is clear: this event wasn't to help the Mormons, but to make them look bad.

Now, I'll grant that if this was the purpose (to make Mormons look bad), then the rhetorical choices made match that purpose. But please don't say that the purpose was to help the Mormons.

I've said all of this before across multiple posts and you've refused to engage. Don't talk to me about my behavior because what I am saying is actually about helping the LDS. The behavior you should condemn is that of Noah, who doesn't want to help the Mormons but who wants to see the LDS church burn to the ground and used these mothers to further that purpose.

Do you disagree with my assessment here? If so, explain why -- don't just give a one sentence flippant response. You have a degree in rhetoric. You should be able to argue.

Okay guy, you’re a master debater.  Surprised you would pick pedophilia as the subject to display your skill set and declare your victories.  

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11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

yes, and I don't think helping children was on anyone's mind, when this was posted. 

72ac5424e8e2a2b3d2f220ea01c98f6322cff1c3

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Just now, lostindc said:

Okay guy, you’re a master debater.  Surprised you would pick pedophilia as the subject to display your skill set and declare your victories.  

59780094255ff375b67ab23a8bcaff00.jpg

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Those poor moms matter tremendously.  Their pain is real.  

Whomever put them up to this trashy display is reprehensible. Everyone in this video is embarrassing imo. And everyone in it is worthy of pity imo. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Okay guy, you’re a master debater.  Surprised you would pick pedophilia as the subject to display your skill set and declare your victories.  

Oh boy. 

Lost, you are out of your league on this one.  

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, there is another board and I am sure he got the video from the person who posted it there as he encouraged all the imbeciles there to follow this thread as he crusades against us. I used to post there and it was bad then and has gone downhill since. I do not recommend going there unless you want to lose your faith in humanity.

I am flirting with the edge of board rules posting this so I will not cross the line with a link or naming the board but OP is not posting this in good faith to share this grievous account to encourage change or to convince members to act. He wants the church destroyed and has said so numerous times.

Is it not okay to share?  My username is the same there as here.

Many from that board most certainly read threads from here. We’re kind of shocked at the posts here but that really doesn’t mean much on this board.  

You want parents of children molested by members to not be able to voice warnings and concerns to their congregation in F&T meetings.  Which is worse?  

Edited by lostindc

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3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Oh boy. 

Lost, you are out of your league on this one.  

If you say so...

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6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Those poor moms matter tremendously.  Their pain is real.  

Whomever put them up to this trashy display is reprehensible. Everyone in this video is embarrassing imo. And everyone in it is worthy of pity imo. 

 

 

Same with those trashy sit-in displays from the civil rights era.  Can you believe they interrupted people eating? What about all the work schedules thrown off by these activists?  We’re talking livelihoods here...

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15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, there is another board and I am sure he got the video from the person who posted it there as he encouraged all the imbeciles there to follow this thread as he crusades against us. I used to post there and it was bad then and has gone downhill since. I do not recommend going there unless you want to lose your faith in humanity.

I am flirting with the edge of board rules posting this so I will not cross the line with a link or naming the board but OP is not posting this in good faith to share this grievous account to encourage change or to convince members to act. He wants the church destroyed and has said so numerous times.

Thanks. My surmise then was correct.

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1 minute ago, lostindc said:

Same with those trashy sit-in displays from the civil rights era.  Can you believe they interrupted people eating? What about all the work schedules thrown off by these activists?  We’re talking livelihoods here...

Nope.  Apples and oranges my friend. Nobody used them to push their alternative agenda. 

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12 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Okay guy, you’re a master debater.  Surprised you would pick pedophilia as the subject to display your skill set and declare your victories.  

🙄

You're not discussing in good faith, obviously, so we're done.

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29 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

Provoman rightly points out the machinations behind this video. The issue as I see it, is that these types of things are endangering fast and testimony meeting as we know it. It is not a time to come out of the closet or to make public accusations, or argue with public pronouncements of the Church.  Abuse happens in other churches, and these ladies would not be allowed to get up on the pulpit and ignore the minister, so they can air their grievances against a youth minister or whatever. We don't need to allow it either. I agree that it is sad that apparently this fellow abused kids, but it is obviously public record at this point as the ladies point out it is in the records. It seems to me they are angry about it, and want to hurt the Church. They could put a story in the local newspaper, flyers on the cars in the parking lot or hand them out on the street as people leave the premises, but instead they hold this very staged event, ready to make the Church leaders look bad or unsympathetic. We simply cannot allow people to ruin our meetings, and ignore the purpose of our meetings. It is sad that these people are so hurt that they are willing to do that, but it is disrespectful to the congregation. The same would hold true for anyone else's meetings they try to hijack, such as in the Baptist Church, Unitarian Church, Lutheran Church, Catholic Church, etc. No one there should put up with it either.

Ok - so, what should be done?  @The Nehor I think is the only one who doesn’t like these unfortunate situations (as seldom as they happen) who has offered a solution.

How will you be a leader instead of a complainer?  What will you do or suggest be done (and to whom will you suggest it)?

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Just now, MiserereNobis said:

🙄

You're not discussing in good faith, obviously, so we're done.

Bro, you already declared victory.  Raise your hands and walk out of the thread.  Readers of this board can digest your victory posts.  You shut this thread down.  I didn’t even address your arguments as you required.  Huge victory!

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3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Nope.  Apples and oranges my friend. Nobody used them to push their alternative agenda. 

What?  Alternative agenda?

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3 minutes ago, lostindc said:

What?  Alternative agenda?

No thank you. 

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4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Nope.  Apples and oranges my friend. Nobody used them to push their alternative agenda. 

Wait! You're forgetting the communists were behind the civil rights movement ;) 

The Noah crowd sure could take a lesson from Martin Luther King's tactics. He didn't hate the white oppressors, he loved them and wanted to change them and the system. Here are some quotes:

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend."

There is no love on the comments for this video.

"I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear."

There certainly is a lot of hate.

Yes, comparing this to the civil rights movement is apples to oranges. That is why earlier I said the analogy doesn't hold.

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14 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Which is worse?  

You, because you would exploit a grieving parent to further your own twisted agenda.

Now go waddle back to your safe space and complain about how mean we all are.

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11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Is this a point of contention?

It shouldn't be.

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18 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Ok - so, what should be done?  @The Nehor I think is the only one who doesn’t like these unfortunate situations (as seldom as they happen) who has offered a solution.

How will you be a leader instead of a complainer?  What will you do or suggest be done (and to whom will you suggest it)?

My solution is to usher the congregation out of the interrupter doesn’t respond to a request to stand down. 

I generally do my part by walking out of these scenarios. 

Then, offer the interrupter an opportunity to issue a formal complaint regarding their issue. 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

It shouldn't be.

I will say that I, for one, will go to the police first when a crime is committed. I do this because the church does not have the power to imprison or punish criminals. I am also an adult and can put on my big boy pants and do not expect the bishop to have to hold my hand or be a go between for doing basic adult things like reporting crimes.

I do understand that some children or teens might go to the bishop first because they do not know what to do about it and I expect the bishop to request legal counsel from Salt Lake to not poison the investigation and then for law enforcement and/or CPS to be contacted.

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My solution is to usher the congregation out of the interrupter doesn’t respond to a request to stand down. 

I generally do my part by walking out of these scenarios. 

Then, offer the interrupter an opportunity to issue a formal complaint regarding their issue. 

 

I think that is the correct procedure except for the formal complaint bit. Do we have a formal complaint process? I have never heard of one.

Edited by The Nehor
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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

think that is the correct procedure except for the formal complaint bit. Do we have a formal complaint process? I have never heard of one.

I assumed a letter or a one on one with whomever needs to hear it.  We have meetings hither and thither, what’s one more :)

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