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lostindc

Sad Fast and Testimony Meeting in Virginia

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1 hour ago, lostindc said:

Lol.  This is why...when members continue to attack the messenger and ignore the message, the church continues to unravel.  

Not sure if you are aware, but 3DOP isn't a member of the church.

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1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Put yourself in this mother’s shoes.

What would you do?

Honest question. Let’s focus on solutions.

Forgive the offenders

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12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Put a trap door behind the pulpit that drops you into a tank filled with sharks. We could also use this for people who tell their boring life stories or go over five minutes with their testimony so it solves multiple problems.

Will the sharks have lasers on their head?

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Just now, Avatar4321 said:

Will the sharks have lasers on their head?

That will be left to the discretion of local leadership.

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1 hour ago, lostindc said:

Lol.  This is why...when members continue to attack the messenger and ignore the message, the church continues to unravel.  

The Church is unraveling now? News to me

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Just now, Avatar4321 said:

Forgive the offenders

I totally get that.  But there is the issue at hand that Michael Jensen was allowed back into the ward under investigation for some serious stuff against children, and no one was warned.  I don't get the impression that she was directing her message at the offender, but rather at the system that failed her - how the church knew about Michael Jensen's charges, but seemed to (I don't know the details) do nothing to warn families.  Then, he offended again while knowing he was under investigation!

I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'm just stating the issue is more complex that one woman failing to forgive someone who harmed her children.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

People will listen much, much more if you give them a choice to listen and don't instead create a feeling of being ambushed.

 

Exactly. Ambushing people, profaning what they hold sacred is now how to persuade people to listen.

Why do so many struggle with D&C 121?

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21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Put a trap door behind the pulpit that drops you into a tank filled with sharks. We could also use this for people who tell their boring life stories or go over five minutes with their testimony so it solves multiple problems.

Get one's money's worth.

Wouldnt even have to put it in all the wards...just enough to make people wonder.  Quite cost efficient. ;)

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46 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I totally get that.  But there is the issue at hand that Michael Jensen was allowed back into the ward under investigation for some serious stuff against children, and no one was warned.  I don't get the impression that she was directing her message at the offender, but rather at the system that failed her - how the church knew about Michael Jensen's charges, but seemed to (I don't know the details) do nothing to warn families.  Then, he offended again while knowing he was under investigation!

I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'm just stating the issue is more complex that one woman failing to forgive someone who harmed her children.

It's even more complicated that.  When he was sent back from his mission and returned to the ward, the "serious stuff against children" was mostly known then as "actually just a few instances of touching the children over their clothing that the victims initially considered accidental" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/01/17/sexual-abuse-case-against-mormon-church-scheduled-to-begin-friday/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.aa145b8a4d4b).  So, even though he was under investigation, they still weren't sure how bad it was.

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I get the sense that some here will not be satisfied until the church authorises the following policy. 

Anyone who is so much as vaguely accused of inappropriate behavior will immediately be held down by local leaders, have their head shaved and a large X carved into their forehead. 

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6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I get the sense that some here will not be satisfied until the church authorises the following policy. 

Anyone who is so much as vaguely accused of inappropriate behavior will immediately be held down by local leaders, have their head shaved and a large X carved into their forehead. 

Maybe there is something in between?

I’m certainly not saying anything close to what you’re suggesting. Only pointing out that in this case, something was missed by an individual or “the system,” and people got hurt.

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19 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Maybe there is something in between?

I’m certainly not saying anything close to what you’re suggesting. Only pointing out that in this case, something was missed by an individual or “the system,” and people got hurt.

Do we know enough about this case to even be sure of that?

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

We have been told the Church is unraveling or its historically accurate equivalent since the 1830s. I hope you will forgive me if I am not prone to hand wringing about this characterization of our proclaimed two century old eternally imminent demise.

I wonder how many years the three nephites has to hear it.

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't know. I'm pretty sure what the endgame is for new name Noah. They shouldn't be linked up with him if they truly want to inform.

Here's an analogy. There's a meeting of the chapter of the NAACP. One of the leaders had covered up sexual abuse. During the meeting, the mother of the victim arrives to tell her story. She interrupts the purpose of the meeting to do so. So far, so good. But then it turns out that she is wired and being filmed by the KKK who are producing a video to show how terrible the NAACP is. The clip is posted on the KKK youtube channel where there are literally thousands of comments saying things like how stupid black people are and how terrible civil rights organizations are and how the KKK was right all along.

Now, what would a member of the NAACP think about all of this? Would you blame them for saying, "that whole thing was just set up by a bunch of racists who hate us." Would you condemn them for disregarding it?

It's all about rhetoric. This was an epic fail to convince Mormons of something, and it's disingenuous to blame Mormons for the failure of the message.

I graduated from the top rhetoric department in the United States.  I thought you said rhetoric is your game?

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25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Do we know enough about this case to even be sure of that?

No, but there seems to be enough evidence to me to know that there seems to be important steps that could have been made.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

No, but there seems to be enough evidence to me to know that there seems to be important steps that could have been made.

Evidence of what? If people coming to the pulpit and saying something is evidence that something happened I am obliged to believe that angels came down and reorganized a lady’s mirrors on at least a weekly basis, that there is a secret organization of apostates that meet in the tunnels under Salt Lake called the Twelve apostates who meet with Lucifer in person on a monthly basis to plot the downfall of the church, that the visiting aliens who abduct people are real and wear temple garments, and that the BYU Jerusalem center was secretly dedicated as a temple in advance.

Edited by The Nehor
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20 minutes ago, lostindc said:

I graduated from the top rhetoric department in the United States.  I thought you said rhetoric is your game?

Wow, really? Your posts here are surprising then, since you are not engaging with my analysis of the rhetoric of the situation at all. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious as to why you won't discuss rhetoric then. Why didn't you quote my post about the Aristotelian appeals and show me where my analysis is off?

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, lostindc said:

I graduated from the top rhetoric department in the United States.  I thought you said rhetoric is your game?

Let me add: what department is it? And why are you relying on credentials instead of offering arguments?

ETA: There is a bit of irony in someone claiming to be a top rhetorician who commits a basic logical fallacy :) 

Edited by MiserereNobis
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Put a trap door behind the pulpit that drops you into a tank filled with sharks. We could also use this for people who tell their boring life stories or go over five minutes with their testimony so it solves multiple problems.

 

Just wanted to hear him say it.

Edited by ksfisher
sp
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32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Evidence of what? If people coming to the pulpit and saying something is evidence that something happened I am obliged to believe that angels came down and reorganized a lady’s mirrors on at least a weekly basis, that there is a secret organization of apostates that meet in the tunnels under Salt Lake called the Twelve apostates who meet with Lucifer in person on a monthly basis to plot the downfall of the church, that the visiting aliens who abduct people are real and wear temple garments, and that the BYU Jerusalem center was secretly dedicated as a temple in advance.

There is far more about this Michael Jensen situation that one can learn beyond what this video recording offers.

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