Sad Fast and Testimony Meeting in Virginia

[The Nehor]

Just now, SouthernMo said:

There is far more about this Michael Jensen situation that one can learn beyond what this video recording offers.

I am sure there is. There is always more then there is in the video. I am not so sure it justifies what happened in the video or setting up that video shoot.

[SouthernMo]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am sure there is. There is always more then there is in the video. I am not so sure it justifies what happened in the video or setting up that video shoot.

I never claimed that it was justified?  I understand it, though.

[Damien the Leper]

First, don't go to ecclesiastical leaders before going to the cops. That is just illogical and it's not helping anyone in the long run. Get the predator questioned and charged and let the justice system take care of that person. In the case of a molestation, the least of my concerns is my religious organization. The religious organization is absolutely irrelevant unless something happened on church property. Only then the religious institution can address safety concerns and deal with the authorities and refrain from any type of action that could be seen even to the slightest degree as obstruction of justice. Absolute transparency and willingness to cooperate no matter the consequences should be of utmost importance to the religious institution. 

[lostindc]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Let me add: what department is it? And why are you relying on credentials instead of offering arguments?

ETA: There is a bit of irony in someone claiming to be a top rhetorician who commits a basic logical fallacy  

Never claimed to be a top rhetorician.  Enjoy playing rhetorical games with a real life mass pedophilia situation.  

[lostindc]

19 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

First, don't go to ecclesiastical leaders before going to the cops. That is just illogical and it's not helping anyone in the long run. Get the predator questioned and charged and let the justice system take care of that person. In the case of a molestation, the least of my concerns is my religious organization. The religious organization is absolutely irrelevant unless something happened on church property. Only then the religious institution can address safety concerns and deal with the authorities and refrain from any type of action that could be seen even to the slightest degree as obstruction of justice. Absolute transparency and willingness to cooperate no matter the consequences should be of utmost importance to the religious institution. 

Did the families not go to law enforcement?  Do you have a source?

[MiserereNobis]

9 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Never claimed to be a top rhetorician.

Then what was the point of claiming that you graduated from the top rhetorical department in the United States?

Quote

 Enjoy playing rhetorical games with a real life mass pedophilia situation.  

Ok, now I'm seriously doubting your credentials. You think rhetoric is just a game yet you have a degree from the best rhetoric department? Are you trolling?

[Damien the Leper]

24 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Did the families not go to law enforcement?  Do you have a source?

That's not what I'm saying nor asserting. What I am saying is disregard the bishop altogether as he is not important unless he is the offender and go straight to the cops because a person has been violated. No phone calls to the McConkie law firm. They aren't going to be useful.

[lostindc]

28 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Then what was the point of claiming that you graduated from the top rhetorical department in the United States?

Ok, now I'm seriously doubting your credentials. You think rhetoric is just a game yet you have a degree from the best rhetoric department? Are you trolling?

Keep playing rhetorical games while we talk about approximately more than 40 cases of pedophilia.  I don’t agree with your behavior.

[lostindc]

16 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

That's not what I'm saying nor asserting. What I am saying is disregard the bishop altogether as he is not important unless he is the offender and go straight to the cops because a person has been violated. No phone calls to the McConkie law firm. They aren't going to be useful.

Agreed, law first, and also alert everyone around this person, especially church leadership.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, lostindc said:

Keep playing rhetorical games while we talk about approximately more than 40 cases of pedophilia.  I don’t agree with your behavior.

You are going to hem and haw about how inappropriate rhetoric is after you clearly posted this video to us to score some kind of rhetorical point in the first place?

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

First, don't go to ecclesiastical leaders before going to the cops. 

Is this a point of contention?

[lostindc]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are going to hem and haw about how inappropriate rhetoric is after you clearly posted this video to us to score some kind of rhetorical point in the first place?

 

So the video was posting for a rhetorical point?  Really?

[The Nehor]

Just now, lostindc said:

So the video was posting for a rhetorical point?  Really?

Yeah and yeah.

[Bernard Gui]

Church invasions are becoming more frequent and more violent. It's a sad trend.

Yes, I think this was a church invasion.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Meerkat]

More reasons for Church , centered in a home near you.

[Maidservant]

Not sure how I feel about all this but Jacob 2:5-10 did come to mind.

[Bernard Gui]

47 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Not sure how I feel about all this but Jacob 2:5-10 did come to mind.

How is this related? Jacob was commanded by the Lord to call his people to repent of some grievous sins. He was their prophet, teacher, and priest. Were the members of that ward guilty of greed, pride, unchastity, or some other serious sin that justified what this Sister did? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Meerkat said:

More reasons for Church , centered in a home near you.

And homeschooling apparently, with all of the shootings. It's a different world, for the better on one hand and for the bad as well. 

I understand why the poster would post. At first it seems the ward members are not thinking of the 40 children by singing songs over the two women's voices. But it's exactly how the two women addressed the issue. Much more affective ways than that I believe. And I'm all for blaring it out there, but not in the fashion they did because it was more an offensive move, than defensive for the children. 

[MiserereNobis]

11 hours ago, lostindc said:

Keep playing rhetorical games while we talk about approximately more than 40 cases of pedophilia.  I don’t agree with your behavior.

 

9 hours ago, lostindc said:

So the video was posting for a rhetorical point?  Really?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? If you have a degree in rhetoric from the top department in the United States then you know that all of this rhetoric. Think back to your freshman introduction to rhetoric class when they taught you what rhetoric is. We'll go back to good ol' Aristotle for that definition: "the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion." The event itself was rhetoric, the posting of the video here is rhetoric, all the responses back and forth are rhetoric. We are using language to express, convince, and persuade, so it is all rhetoric.

You are like a lawyer filing a legal brief denying that you are doing law.

And I'm not playing games. I'm trying to help. My whole argument has been that if you really want to help the LDS church deal with pedophiles, if you want to show them there is a problem, then you have to do it in a way that will convince them. Look at the definition of rhetoric: you have to select the best of the available means of persuasion. You have to analyze the given case (the LDS church) and figure out the best way to convince.

My claim is that this whole spectacle did this very poorly. Having new name Noah run the show, filming the event for a sensational expose documentary, and posting the video under his youtube channel is NOT going to reach LDS. In fact, it will have the opposite effect. They will not listen to what is being said. That is not their fault; that is the fault of those who orchestrated this.

If you want to reach the LDS, you will need to examine the rhetorical situation and deliver the message in a way that will be convincing. You have to think about your purpose, analyze the audience, and set up your persona (basic rhetorical strategies here). You have to decide how you will present the message, how you will appeal to ethos, pathos, and logos.

This video shows that this wasn't done. The choices made here will obviously turn Mormons off to the whole thing. Again, that is the fault of the presenters. To be associated with new name Noah destroys all ethos (please see my prior post about this) -- the Mormons will not trust any of this because it is being run by a guy who is virulently and terribly anti-Mormon. The people surrounding this event are not on the side of the Mormons, do not have good will, and thus will not be trusted by the Mormons. It was a terrible analysis of the audience. But then again, I wonder if Mormons were the intended audience. My guess is no -- it seems the intended audience is those who want the LDS church to fail.

As I have said, over and over, if you want to help someone, if you want to convince them of something, then you need to do it in a way that will actually convince them. This event did not do that and will not do it. Thus, I can conclude that either the people involved did not think things through or they didn't really want to help the LDS church. Since Noah was involved, it seems the answer is clear: this event wasn't to help the Mormons, but to make them look bad.

Now, I'll grant that if this was the purpose (to make Mormons look bad), then the rhetorical choices made match that purpose. But please don't say that the purpose was to help the Mormons.

I've said all of this before across multiple posts and you've refused to engage. Don't talk to me about my behavior because what I am saying is actually about helping the LDS. The behavior you should condemn is that of Noah, who doesn't want to help the Mormons but who wants to see the LDS church burn to the ground and used these mothers to further that purpose.

Do you disagree with my assessment here? If so, explain why -- don't just give a one sentence flippant response. You have a degree in rhetoric. You should be able to argue.

Edited May 15, 2019 by MiserereNobis

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, lostindc said:

So the video was posting for a rhetorical point?  Really?

Yes, but it was mostly showboating for the degenerate hobgoblins over in the great and spacious trailer park. Your posting there is how I know. Subtlety is not your strong point.

[MiserereNobis]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but it was mostly showboating for the degenerate hobgoblins over in the great and spacious trailer park. Your posting there is how I know. Subtlety is not your strong point.

Do you mind explaining your cryptic message? Is he posting about this thread somewhere else?

[Prof]

Does anyone know if the people who spoke are actually members of that ward?

[Bede]

14 hours ago, lostindc said:

I graduated from the top rhetoric department in the United States.  I thought you said rhetoric is your game?

LOL, and I graduated from the Ministry of Silly Walks.

[RevTestament]

18 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I predict this will only happen more in the future. The idea that Mormons follow and trust the leadership of the church in their decisions will fade precipitously.  Yet, there is not an accepted or structured way to express grievances and challenges outside of leadership channels.

How feasible would it be to have a 1-800 number to someone at the church office building open to ALL members of the church to express concerns with the assurance that the issue would be reviewed and responded to?

Today’s LDS leadership system is a vacuum. If you have a problem with a decision from the stake president, I don’t think there is another outlet structured and supported by the church for one to turn to.

And with less immediate trust of leadership and easy access to platforms of activism, we will see more and more until something changes.

 

19 hours ago, provoman said:

A staged event to highjack testimony meeting....I think the singing was appropriate.

And did you know McKenna Denson was literally front row and center filming the whole thing. Now what are the chances the she shows up randomly at a ward sits front row and starts filming?Did you know Mckenna Deson said the two ladies were wired for sound (microphones).

 

Provoman rightly points out the machinations behind this video. The issue as I see it, is that these types of things are endangering fast and testimony meeting as we know it. It is not a time to come out of the closet or to make public accusations, or argue with public pronouncements of the Church.  Abuse happens in other churches, and these ladies would not be allowed to get up on the pulpit and ignore the minister, so they can air their grievances against a youth minister or whatever. We don't need to allow it either. I agree that it is sad that apparently this fellow abused kids, but it is obviously public record at this point as the ladies point out it is in the records. It seems to me they are angry about it, and want to hurt the Church. They could put a story in the local newspaper, flyers on the cars in the parking lot or hand them out on the street as people leave the premises, but instead they hold this very staged event, ready to make the Church leaders look bad or unsympathetic. We simply cannot allow people to ruin our meetings, and ignore the purpose of our meetings. It is sad that these people are so hurt that they are willing to do that, but it is disrespectful to the congregation. The same would hold true for anyone else's meetings they try to hijack, such as in the Baptist Church, Unitarian Church, Lutheran Church, Catholic Church, etc. No one there should put up with it either.

[Jeanne]

17 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

The leadership didn't follow the church's security guidelines issued in 2016.  When this happens, whoever is in charge approaches the person and says they're being inappropriate, asks them to stop.  If they don't, then the leadership cuts the microphone and dismisses the meeting and offers to meet with them privately.   If they continue to be a disruption, you call the cops and have them trespassed.   You don't invade their personal space, you don't get physical, and you sure the heck don't argue with them in front of the whole congregation. 

Deny them the podium, but if they won't leave, deny them the audience.  That's what you do.

Love the fact that he didn't follow through...don't ever shut anybody down unless the is profanity or such...if they are members of your ward...you don't shut them down.....guess what...they matter!