SouthernMo Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: I would try to speak out in more productive ways. Maybe travel around and volunteer to speak to schools, church groups, etc., and tell my story. Let them know what you wish you'd known. Talk about preventative measures and warning signs. Just a few ideas..... There are so many things that a Mother of a victim of sexual abuse could do that would be more beneficial (to her and to others) than what was done here, IMO. Do you think she did any good? (Honest question) I don’t see immediate good. Maybe there was. Maybe some parents will be more cautious. Maybe someone at LDSHQ will view this video and decide that something needs to happen. But, I stand by my position that there is no LDS structure in place (that I’m aware of) to acceptably address challenges beyond the local level. Link to comment
Popular Post Calm Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) Quote Peoplewill not listen People will listen much, much more if you give them a choice to listen and don't instead create a feeling of being ambushed. Edited May 14, 2019 by Calm 12 Link to comment
lostindc Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, 3DOP said: You mean that they won't be ready to escort the kook to the psycho ward next time? How can someone possibly think that they are helping people by interrupting their public religious exercises? Even if she wasn't lying, it was inappropriate, and she better not try it any of the churches I have ever attended. In a way, I was edified, by the gentle patience of the apparent leaders and the congregation. It was handled with dignity this time, but repetition surely could not be tolerable to your Sunday worship could it? That could happen again and again? Lol. This is why...when members continue to attack the messenger and ignore the message, the church continues to unravel. Edited May 14, 2019 by lostindc 2 Link to comment
Popular Post ALarson Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I don’t see immediate good. Maybe there was. Maybe some parents will be more cautious. Maybe someone at LDSHQ will view this video and decide that something needs to happen. But, I stand by my position that there is no LDS structure in place (that I’m aware of) to acceptably address challenges beyond the local level. I think there needs to be a lot more done....I agree. More changes need to be made. I just feel that doing things like this (in fast and testimony meeting) are much more negative than positive as far as motivating changes. 9 Link to comment
lostindc Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 hour ago, provoman said: A staged event to highjack testimony meeting....I think the singing was appropriate. And did you know McKenna Denson was literally front row and center filming the whole thing. Now what are the chances the she shows up randomly at a ward sits front row and starts filming?Did you know Mckenna Deson said the two ladies were wired for sound (microphones). What if McKenna Denson was filming an activist warning about civil rights issues, do we disregard the civil rights issues? 1 Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, lostindc said: Lol. This is why...when members continue to attack the messenger and ignore the message, the church continues to unravel. But the messenger also needs to find an appropriate way to deliver the message. The delivery of a message can ruin the reception of a message -- that's just the facts of rhetoric. If the purpose was to inform the audience, why do it in such a way that the audience feels ambushed/attacked/etc. And why do it with someone who is virulently anti-Mormon? All of these things drown out the message. Now, if the point was to create a sensational video showing how Mormons will cover-up child abuse by drowning out a mother in song, then maybe this works. But don't try to say the purpose was to inform when the actual action doesn't match the purpose. If you want to inform, then you have to do it in a way where people will listen and trust you. This is basic rhetoric -- there needs to be ethos. Her association with that new name guy destroys the ethos. Take a glance at some of the comments on the youtube video and you will see why Mormons will write this off. Edited May 14, 2019 by MiserereNobis 12 Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, lostindc said: What if McKenna Denson was filming an activist warning about civil rights issues, do we disregard the civil rights issues? That analogy doesn't hold for obvious reasons. 2 Link to comment
lostindc Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: But the messenger also needs to find an appropriate way to deliver the message. The delivery of a message can ruin the reception of a message -- that's just the facts of rhetoric. If the purpose was to inform the audience, why do it in such a way that the audience feels ambushed/attacked/etc. And why do it with somehow who is virulently anti-Mormon? All of these things drown out the message. Now, if the point was to create a sensational video showing how Mormons will cover-up child abuse by drowning out a mother in song, then maybe this works. But don't try to say the purpose was to inform when the actual action doesn't match the purpose. If you want to inform, then you have to do it in a way where people will listen and trust you. This is basic rhetoric -- there needs to be ethos. Her association with that new name guy destroys the ethos. Take a glance at some of the comments on the youtube video and you will see why Mormons will write this off. What’s the Church’s guidance regarding how the messenger can appropriately deliver the message? Also, yes, you’re correct, Mormons will turn this off kind of like a light switch and this Includes the members in my family. Lastly, what’s the end game for these two moms? You say it’s not to inform, what’s the end game? Edited May 14, 2019 by lostindc Link to comment
ksfisher Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: But the messenger also needs to find an appropriate way to deliver the message. The delivery of a message can ruin the reception of a message -- that's just the facts of rhetoric. If the purpose was to inform the audience, why do it in such a way that the audience feels ambushed/attacked/etc. And why do it with somehow who is virulently anti-Mormon? All of these things drown out the message. Now, if the point was to create a sensational video showing how Mormons will cover-up child abuse by drowning out a mother in song, then maybe this works. But don't try to say the purpose was to inform when the actual action doesn't match the purpose. If you want to inform, then you have to do it in a way where people will listen and trust you. This is basic rhetoric -- there needs to be ethos. Her association with that new name guy destroys the ethos. Take a glance at some of the comments on the youtube video and you will see why Mormons will write this off. Very, very well said. Link to comment
lostindc Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: That analogy doesn't hold for obvious reasons. Explain, genuinely curious. Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, lostindc said: What’s the Church’s guidance regarding how the messenger can appropriately deliver the message? I have no idea; I'm not LDS. But staging an event orchestrated by an anti-Mormon (I rarely use that term, but new name noah fits the bill) to create clips for a documentary is not delivering a message. The last one of these videos I watched here was new name noah and someone prancing down the street heading to church drinking coffee acting all giddy that they were about to disrupt a meeting. Their purpose is shown by their tactics. They are not intending to deliver a message to help people. They are intending to disrupt and discredit. 8 Link to comment
provoman Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 18 minutes ago, lostindc said: What if McKenna Denson was filming an activist warning about civil rights issues, do we disregard the civil rights issues? I think singing is an appropriate response to someone who purposefully schemes to disrupt and abuse a religious meeting Link to comment
lostindc Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I have no idea; I'm not LDS. But staging an event orchestrated by an anti-Mormon (I rarely use that term, but new name noah fits the bill) to create clips for a documentary is not delivering a message. The last one of these videos I watched here was new name noah and someone prancing down the street heading to church drinking coffee acting all giddy that they were about to disrupt a meeting. Their purpose is shown by their tactics. They are not intending to deliver a message to help people. They are intending to disrupt and discredit. Don’t you think you might want to know if there’s a solid way of getting heard by leadership before commenting? Or do you often comment and give advice in areas you don’t have a knowledge base? I would think 40 plus counts of child molestation is an area where you might want to pause and think before typing. Link to comment
lostindc Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, provoman said: I think singing is an appropriate response to someone who purposefully schemes to disrupt and abuse a religious meeting Sad that the leaders didn’t act and alert the congregation of a sex predator. If we can sing, we can likely talk, maybe a warning could’ve saved a whole new batch of victims. I am surprised that many can focus on a meeting disruption then the child molestation. Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, lostindc said: Also, yes, you’re correct, Mormons will turn this off kind of like a light switch and this Includes the members in my family. Blame new name Noah. His purpose is not to help or inform members of your family. Why should they listen to things he orchestrates? Aristotle pointed out that to convince people, we have to appeal to ethos. The three main ways we do this are: good will, good reputation, good sense. Good will is the feeling that the speaker is on your side and wants good things for you. Good reputation is obvious -- the person is seen as a good person. Good sense is that the person doesn't mess up their reasoning. Good will and good reputation are out the window with new name Noah. He absolutely cannot appeal to ethos for Mormons. So, understandably they will not listen to him. Again, these are the basic facts of rhetoric. It is not the audience's fault that they are not convinced when the speaker does a terrible job, even if the speaker is telling the truth (Aristotle, again). My argument hopefully is clear: if these people wish to inform Mormons, they need to do it in a way that Mormons will respond to. But that doesn't appear to be the real purpose, does it? What do you think? Does new name Noah genuinely want to help the LDS church deal with pedophiles? Is he on the side of the LDS church? 5 Link to comment
3DOP Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's interesting to consider what would happen if a victim of priest sex abuse interrupted Mass like this. What would the proper response be? MN...I have been at Mass when 911 has been called because someone has needed emergency medical assistance. Father continued. The person who needs medical help would not have been more aided spiritually or physically if Father had stopped the Mass, even to say some ex tempore prayer for her or him. The ill person needs Father to finish! I have never seen anybody die at Mass, but it wouldn't be the worst way to go would it? Heh. I suppose I was comparing this episode with that and found it to be outrageous. I am remembering my Catholic teacher in 5th grade. I had never been to church in my life. Maybe somebody was misbehaving, acting inappropriately in class? I can't remember any details. One time, for some reason, he spoke about how impossible it would be for someone to get up and interrupt the Catholic ceremony...the Mass (still pre Vat. II, heh). I still remember the mysterious something that he was talking about, to which I could not relate. God bless you Mr. Wellman. A seed planted. I had not thought of this for a long, long time. Edited May 14, 2019 by 3DOP 3 Link to comment
Duncan Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 isn't there a charge of disturbing the peace or something in the US? I'd be all for taking this person and the people behind it who are making a buck off of the pain of others on a trip to Sue City Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 18 minutes ago, lostindc said: Lastly, what’s the end game for these two moms? You say it’s not to inform, what’s the end game? I don't know. I'm pretty sure what the endgame is for new name Noah. They shouldn't be linked up with him if they truly want to inform. Here's an analogy. There's a meeting of the chapter of the NAACP. One of the leaders had covered up sexual abuse. During the meeting, the mother of the victim arrives to tell her story. She interrupts the purpose of the meeting to do so. So far, so good. But then it turns out that she is wired and being filmed by the KKK who are producing a video to show how terrible the NAACP is. The clip is posted on the KKK youtube channel where there are literally thousands of comments saying things like how stupid black people are and how terrible civil rights organizations are and how the KKK was right all along. Now, what would a member of the NAACP think about all of this? Would you blame them for saying, "that whole thing was just set up by a bunch of racists who hate us." Would you condemn them for disregarding it? It's all about rhetoric. This was an epic fail to convince Mormons of something, and it's disingenuous to blame Mormons for the failure of the message. 8 Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 9 minutes ago, lostindc said: I am surprised that many can focus on a meeting disruption then the child molestation. I just want to clarify that I'm not taking a side on whether or not the meeting should have been disrupted. My whole point is that disrupting the meeting and being in league with Noah is not going to convince Mormons. So, it makes it appear that purpose is otherwise. 5 Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 12 minutes ago, lostindc said: Don’t you think you might want to know if there’s a solid way of getting heard by leadership before commenting? Or do you often comment and give advice in areas you don’t have a knowledge base? I would think 40 plus counts of child molestation is an area where you might want to pause and think before typing. My area of expertise is rhetoric. That is all I have been commenting on. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 hour ago, ALarson said: Watching this video is just sad. My heart goes out to those Mothers (and also to McKenna Denson).....but they should stay as far away from New Name Noah as possible. Why on earth would they hook up with him? They should have a voice and should be able to tell their stories if that helps them heal (or if it warns or protects others from a known predator), but doing this was so counter productive and only makes them look bad. I feel that NNN just preys on them and knows they are bitter or angry and that they want to lash out (making them easy to influence and vulnerable). Maybe that's not the case, but they should stop being influenced by him and put their voices and efforts behind more productive ways to educate and prevent abuse. This is just hard to watch. I feel the same. Link to comment
Popular Post LoudmouthMormon Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 47 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I hate to see this...but what can you do?? The leadership didn't follow the church's security guidelines issued in 2016. When this happens, whoever is in charge approaches the person and says they're being inappropriate, asks them to stop. If they don't, then the leadership cuts the microphone and dismisses the meeting and offers to meet with them privately. If they continue to be a disruption, you call the cops and have them trespassed. You don't invade their personal space, you don't get physical, and you sure the heck don't argue with them in front of the whole congregation. Deny them the podium, but if they won't leave, deny them the audience. That's what you do. 7 Link to comment
Popular Post LoudmouthMormon Posted May 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, lostindc said: I am surprised that many can focus on a meeting disruption then the child molestation. Yay - got my quota in for being unrighteously judged on the internet today. Hey lostindc - I have personally been involved in getting a child molester in front of his priesthood authorities and kicked out of the church. My wife and I have personally driven to another state several times to give testimony, attend parole hearings, support the victim. I can't begin to describe the tears, the heartache, the family ties split apart. Me and at least six other people aged 5 years in one year, as we did the difficult things. And here you are being surprised that I'm participating in this thread. I have some rather uncharitable replies on the tips of my fingers, but, well, they wouldn't be charitable. So I'll content myself with just pointing out that your surprise can only exist when you are assuming facts not in evidence. I've just given you some (anonymous internet) evidence in hopes you'll reconsider. Edited May 14, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon 6 Link to comment
3DOP Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 36 minutes ago, lostindc said: Lol. This is why...when members continue to attack the messenger and ignore the message, the church continues to unravel. Lol? You titled the meeting as "sad". So...you approve of a sad meeting? No wait. You find it sad that worshipers are unreceptive to their religious observances being interrupted? Okay...I can't relate to that. Why does "the message" have to be delivered during religious services? I just got done explaining how I perceive this as a Catholic in another post. From my perspective, the reaction is tame. She would not have gotten five words out of her mouth where I go to Mass. She wouldn't be unnecessarily manhandled. She would be removed as gently as possible. Nobody is allowed to interrupt. I have thought about what I would do if somebody came forward with a firearm, and I see myself coming forward, probabIy following, but if need be, leading several dozen men while Father, with his back to the unimportant action, continues what is of utmost importance. I said she was a kook. Maybe that was too strong. I was thinking Catholic...She was rational enough to calculate correctly that she wouldn't be stopped. Still...I trust they will be more ready in future. 4 Link to comment
Rain Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 24 minutes ago, lostindc said: Sad that the leaders didn’t act and alert the congregation of a sex predator. If we can sing, we can likely talk, maybe a warning could’ve saved a whole new batch of victims. I am surprised that many can focus on a meeting disruption then the child molestation. NO one here is putting a meeting disruption before child molestation. I know nothing about this case. I can't comment on anything about the child molestation. I can't comment on who was warned or who was not warned and when or anything about the case. I would bet the majority of us knew nothing about it till you posted the video. The only thing we can really comment on is what is shown in the video and how it is being portrayed by you. You want to talk about what we can do to help children, mothers, perpetrators etc involved in child abuse and find solutions like southern mo talked about then start a thread about it, but don't go putting up a video like this, imply a lack of compassion of those in the ward and then imply the rest of us who take issue with what you said and what was in the video care more about what happened then those who are abused. 3 Link to comment
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