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The label "TBM"

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3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

I'm thinking these days, the average user of the term TBM, hasn't read Owen and Mosser's work on how antimormons need to step up their game and stop acting like ignorant buffoons.  

Strange word choice if we are trying to learn how not to offend each other.

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13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Same-sex attraction is a clinical term, not a cliche. And unlike “TBM,” which implies contempt, it is neutral. 

 

Is it really a clinical term?  Genuinely asking.  I did a quick google search for the exact term "same sex attraction" and the top sites using the term were christian sites.  LDS.org showed up 3rd on my search, mormon news rooms was #4, focusonthefamily.com showed up 6th.  I didn't search hard but at a quick glance didn't see any "clinical" type of sites using the term.

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New Term (per RMN): TATPCGMMOTCOJCOLDS

Temple Attending Tithe Paying Church Going Ministering Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I think if we had one of those Google word-occurrence-chart thingies, TBM would have shown up in the mid-'80s, grown in the '90's, peaked in the early 2000's, and has been steadily declining since then.  Kind of like people calling each other "basket case" or "swell".

I'm thinking these days, the average user of the term TBM, hasn't read Owen and Mosser's work on how antimormons need to step up their game and stop acting like ignorant buffoons.  

Your point is well taken, but will be missed by most, so it doesn't really matter.  The more important question is whether TBM rings will replace CTR rings.

Most TBMs will simply say, "Owen and who"?

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47 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Is it really a clinical term?  Genuinely asking.  I did a quick google search for the exact term "same sex attraction" and the top sites using the term were christian sites.  LDS.org showed up 3rd on my search, mormon news rooms was #4, focusonthefamily.com showed up 6th.  I didn't search hard but at a quick glance didn't see any "clinical" type of sites using the term.

Did you run across this in your search? 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/same-sex-attraction

It appears to be an academic journal, and it uses same-sex attraction as a clinical expression. Or am I misinterpreting?

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Posted (edited)

The term Devoted Members will be pejorative if nothing else is used. 

Its just language. 

If someone intends to be condescending then “that” is the problem imo. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Homosexuality is the clinical term.

And there have been a number of witnesses here stating that they did not understand it to imply any contempt whatsoever.

Not do I. 

Can there not be more than one clinical term for the same thing, perhaps conveying different shades of meaning? 

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6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

The term Devoted Members will be pejorative if nothing else is used. 

Its just language. 

If someone intends to be condescending then “that” is the problem imo. 

I don’t see anything conceivably pejorative about “devoted members.”

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I've often referred to my wife as a TBM on this board. I've never really attached a negative connotation to it. I think it may have gained a negative connotation in the same sense as the phrase "goody two shoes" gets used - some may also think of it as someone who always defends the Church. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, I don't think of myself that way. I defend the truth as I see it, and don't always agree with what past general authorities have said. To the extent that I believe the Church represents the truth, I defend her. To the extent that I believe some things are a little off, I have disagreed with them. Right now I am generally happy with the path the Church is headed, but in my belief she is still learning. There is certainly nothing wrong with that - I am still learning. My wife is someone who tries to follow all the rules, and everything the general authorities say, and I tend to pick and choose what I like, interpretations I recognize as truth, and what I think is good for me - I don't read the BoM every day.... etc. Probably what I like least about the term TBM, is that I generally don't care for being referred to as Mormon. I like LDS Christian or similar, so I don''t really want to be called a TBM, but if someone called me a TBM, I would not be offended - just probably a little mystified... I don't think local members think of me as TBM...  when they get to know me, I'm probably a little too unorthodox for that... ;) 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Homosexuality is the clinical term.

Same sex attraction is also used by academics:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835305/

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Same-sex attraction is a clinical term, not a cliche. And unlike “TBM,” which implies contempt, it is neutral. 

In any event, I’ve never raised a stink when somebody has used “TBM,” and until this moment, have never even expressed an opinion about it. 

I have also heard the term "sheeple" used in a derogatory way when referring to unquestioning members of the church.  I consider it a compliment. Since Jesus is our Shepherd doesn't that make us His sheep? 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sjdawg said:

Is it really a clinical term?  Genuinely asking.  I did a quick google search for the exact term "same sex attraction" and the top sites using the term were christian sites.  LDS.org showed up 3rd on my search, mormon news rooms was #4, focusonthefamily.com showed up 6th.  I didn't search hard but at a quick glance didn't see any "clinical" type of sites using the term.

You need to use the scholar option with google to pull up articles (google "google scholar" or add "scholarly articles" as a search term).  "Homosexuality" google search doesn't bring up much in terms of clinical usage either in its top sites for me unless I indicate "scholarly articles".

I have no clue how often "same sex attraction" is used in academic articles vs. "homosexuality, but I have seen it quite a bit when doing research. (Add-on:  my ipad will show numbers in google scholar after all....13,500 for "same sex attraction" and 536,000 for homosexuality...so latter is 40 times more common, but former is not rare).

"same sex attraction" on google scholar 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C45&q="same+sex+attraction"&btnG=

PS:  I am only challenging the idea it is not also a clinical term.  Terms used clinically are often seen as offensive in casual conversation, so being used clinically is no guarantee of nonoffensiveness (cult and myth are examples).

("Same sex couples" is used around 3 times as often as "homosexual couples" and "same sex couples" twice as often as "homosexual couples" as a side note)

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Same-sex attraction is a clinical term, not a cliche. And unlike “TBM,” which implies contempt, it is neutral. 

In any event, I’ve never raised a stink when somebody has used “TBM,” and until this moment, have never even expressed an opinion about it. 

I think the issue is that when someone has expressed that it is offensive to use a certain term to describe them, we should be respectful and stop using that term to describe them.

As many have stated here, TBM is not offensive for them.  That's how I feel as well (when I use it, it's not as a slur or insult).

But now that I know many are offended by it, I'll stop using it....just by chance I am speaking or referring to someone who does find it insulting or offensive.  

Edited by ALarson
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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I think the issue is that when someone has expressed that it is offensive to use a certain term to describe them, we should be respectful and stop using that term to describe them.

As many have stated here, TBM is not offensive for them.  That's how I feel as well (when I use it, it's not as a slur or insult).

But now that I know many are offended by it, I'll stop using it....just by chance I am speaking or referring to someone who does find it insulting or offensive.  

As I said, I’ve never felt strongly enough about “TBM” to raise a fuss over it. As it  happens, someone here started a thread about it, so I decided I would weigh in, the first time I have ever expressed an opinion on it. 

On the other hand, it does raise my hackles when I perceive there is an attempt to ram political correctness down my throat, which is what I see happening when there are efforts to abjure a perfectly good and neutral and serviceable (and, yes, clinical) term like same-sex attraction. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

The term Devoted Members will be pejorative if nothing else is used. 

Its just language. 

If someone intends to be condescending then “that” is the problem imo. 

My son just uses the term Mormons and it sounds pejorative.  Somehow. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said, I’ve never felt strongly enough about “TBM” to raise a fuss over it. As it  happens, someone here started a thread about it, so I decided I would weigh in, the first time I have ever expressed an opinion on it. 

On the other hand, it does raise my hackles when I perceive there is an attempt to ram political correctness down my throat, which is what I see happening when there are efforts to abjure a perfectly good and neutral and serviceable (and, yes, clinical) term like same-sex attraction. 

But if it's offensive to many who are gay (and I've had some personally express to me that it is)....why not just avoid using it?  Why not ask what they prefer when speaking of their relationships or who they are?

It's the same with certain ethnics or races.  Sometimes I'm not even certain anymore how I should refer to them in a respectful manner.  This just happened the other day with a co-worker.  I just came right out and asked them (and let them know I was asking so I would not ever offend them or innocently use the wrong term).  Now that I know (after they answered me and it was a nice conversation)....I will be respectful of their feelings.

This is just common courtesy, IMO.

Edited by ALarson
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I seem to recall many years ago people using the terms "chapel Mormon" and "internet Mormon".  The difference being the former is a believer without much exposure to the critical details about the church but the former is aware.

Since the word Mormon is now a victory for Satan should this also be considered as offensive? 

Phaedrus 

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4 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

I seem to recall many years ago people using the terms "chapel Mormon" and "internet Mormon".  The difference being the former is a believer without much exposure to the critical details about the church but the former is aware.

Since the word Mormon is now a victory for Satan should this also be considered as offensive? 

Phaedrus 

I think the victory for Satan comes when “Mormon” or anything else supplants the name of Jesus Christ as the identifier for His church. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But if it's offensive to many who are gay (and I've had some personally express to me that it is)....why not just avoid using it?  Why not ask what they prefer when speaking of their relationships or who they are?

I think some say they find it offensive because it does not support the political narrative they hope prevails in society. Hence it’s a matter of political correctness, a thing  I detest. 

And I don’t believe it’s so much a matter of what they individually prefer to be called. Rather they want everyone to stop using the term no matter whom or what is referred to. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But if it's offensive to many who are gay (and I've had some personally express to me that it is)....why not just avoid using it?  Why not ask what they prefer when speaking of their relationships or who they are?

It's the same with certain ethnics or races.  Sometimes I'm not even certain anymore how I should refer to them in a respectful manner.  This just happened the other day with a co-worker.  I just came right out and asked them (and let them know I was asking so I would not ever offend them or innocently use the wrong term).  Now that I know (after they answered me and it was a nice conversation)....I will be respectful of their feelings.

This is just common courtesy, IMO.

I think the biggest problem with focusing on "same sex attraction" as offensive is that "same sex marriage", "same sex couples", and "same sex relationships" are acceptable and in wide usage.  Since there is nothing inherently offensive in the word attraction, it can be hard for others to understand why "same sex attraction" is somehow categorically different than the other usages of "same sex".

Edited by Calm

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5 hours ago, rockpond said:

I haven't thought of it in the negative way that Blair Hodges defines it above.  I always considered it a positive statement:  a true believing (I'd probably insert "orthodox") Mormon... which I don't look at as a bad thing -- quite the opposite.

The previous thread you mentioned was an eye opener to me as I didn't realize people considered it derogatory.  So even though I don't use it, I am doubly recommitted to not using it now.

But I also think one should consider that some people using "TBM" may be meaning it in a positive way.

 

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 But then I thought TBM stood for True Blue Mormon and referred to the famous quote by Joseph F. Smith when confronted by a hostile group of men replied to the question "are you a Mormon with this answere.

“Yes siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through.”

 I meant it as meaning a very faithful member.

 

 

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

That's interesting. I've never thought of TBM as a negative term.  I've always assumed it just meant someone who was active in the church and believed the truth claims.  

 

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've used it and will probably continue to use it. It's so fast and easy to type and in my mind has none of the negative connotations Blaire Hodges ascribes to it. I've heard varying degrees of TBM being used, sometimes negative, but most of the time as just a short-hand description of a person's level of dedication to the church. 

So I'm not going to get hung up on what Blaire Hodges thinks it means, or others on this board. I'll use it because it's easy. There's no need to be offended. I don't find it to be an offensive term at all.

I am in no way a gullible fool... nor am I unable to think critically... I actually love being a strong, faithful Latter-Day Saint woman who lives the Gospel as a believer and, yes, I consider myself TBM in the sense expressed as "true blue, through and through."   I think independently, and resent being portrayed as Mr. Hodges describes... I do not know how the term came to take on a negative connotation... I also do not agree with every word from our leaders in all things.  In those few instances I have taken and will continue to take my issues in prayer to the Lord and wait for further light and knowledge as I study the matter fully.   I have received the witness of the Spirit, heard the still small voice, been awakened by dreams... TBM??  You bet... true blue...

from the beach on a lovely, sunny afternoon almost 70 degrees.. GG

 

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tbms are ThE aNtI miLlenIaLL 

my dads interpretation of it at least.

**** him, glad he's out of my life.

herded sheep

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If I ever refer to anyone by a label they don't want, three things should happen:

1) Tell me directly so I stop doing.  Do not sulk or complain to others about it; do something to stop it.

2) I will stop calling you that label because you don't want to be identified that way, and I don't see anything productive in me continuing to use a label that you don't like.

3) While I will consider my experience with you to my efforts to address people as they want to be addressed, let's both realize that you don't speak for everybody about which labels are appropriate and which are not.  

 

SO - while I have used the acronym TBM on this forum, if anyone has taken offense to it, please tell me about it. I will not describe you that way anymore.  Whether I like the label or not is irrelevant to me; I'd rather make efforts to make you feel comfortable and respected.

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the biggest problem with focusing on "same sex attraction" as offensive is that "same sex marriage", "same sex couples", and "same sex relationships" are acceptable and in wide usage.

Now that I know that it is offensive, I have absolutely no trouble remembering they feel different about that term (than they feel about "same sex marriage" or "same sex couples").  It's not that difficult to do when I know it hurts or offends some to insist on continuing to use it after we are aware it is offensive.

I guess each of us has that choice to make.

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the biggest problem with focusing on "same sex attraction" as offensive is that "same sex marriage", "same sex couples", and "same sex relationships" are acceptable and in wide usage.  Since there is nothing inherently offensive in the word attraction, it can be hard for others to understand why "same sex attraction" is somehow categorically different than the other usages of "same sex".

I wonder if there would still be objection if instead of saying “same-sex attraction” one were to say “attraction to the same sex.”  Less concise, but it says exactly the same thing. 

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