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firepatch36

I am in John

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1 hour ago, firepatch36 said:

Here are some thought, partly inspired by Stephen Robinson who I had for New Testament, on the use of the phrase “I am”  in John.

 

There are seven “I am the NOUN” in John, which are found 12 times:

John 6:35, 48 and 51 - “I am the bread of life” or “living bread”

John 8:12; 9:5 - “I am the light of the world”

John 10:7, 9 - “I am the door of the sheep”

John 10:11, 14 - “I am the good shepherd”

John 11:25 - “I am the resurrection and the life”;

John 14:6 - “I am the way, the truth, and the light”

John 15:1, 5 - “I am the true vine”

 

There are five times when Jesus declares “I am.”

While talking to the woman at the well, Jesus the KJV in John 4:26 has “Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.” But a better/actual translation is: “I am [is] the one speaking to you.” (Huntsman, Becoming the Beloved Disciple, p. 63)

When with the disciples during the raging sea, in John 6:20 the translation in the KJV is “But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid” but Huntsman notes that the Greek used is ego eimi which is “I am” (p. 74).

In John 8:58 Jesus states, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” and the reaction was to stone him.

In John 10:36 Jesus reiterates that he is “I am” and the reaction was to take him.

Then in John 18:5 after the suffering in Gethsemane, Judas and the band of officers sought out Jesus. He simply told them “I am” (with the word “he” added by translators). Unlike before when the masses to kill him, now when Jesus declared his divinity, his testimony was so strong that “As soon then as he had said unto them, “I am,” they went backward, and fell to the ground.” (verse 6 with the added word “he” deleted).

All told this gives 12 different mentions of “I am” in John, a recurring number in the scriptures.

 

 

I tried to relate this to the temple. In John 2:19 Jesus says “destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”  While Jesus was speaking of his body, it is interesting to note that John the “I am” statements correlate with the temple.

The door (I am the door) of the temple was decorated with vines (I am the true vine), the bread (I am the bread of life) sat on a table inside the tabernacle on the north side, the south side had the menorah (I am the light). In the Holy of Holies the priest would utter the ineffable name of God – “I am.”

The three I ams not above are “I am the good shepherd” “I am the resurrection and the life” “I am the way, the truth, and the light.” These all fit in with temple but perhaps as not clear cut as bread.

 

Any thoughts, comments, improvements on this? This general topic is in the Sunday School manual and I’ll be going over it in a week.

And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

(Exodus 3:14)

 

I believe that any "I AM" statements made by the Savior would have been understood by the Jews in the context of Exodus 3:14.  He was essentially declaring to them that he was their God, which is one of the reasons that the Pharisees were so upset with Him.

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John 8:  12, 16, 18, 23, 24, 28 and 58 are all “I am” statements in this one chapter alone.  

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1 hour ago, firepatch36 said:

Any thoughts, comments, improvements on this? This general topic is in the Sunday School manual and I’ll be going over it in a week.

Also, from 3 Nephi....

I am Jesus Christ the Son of God.

I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

I am the light and the life of the world.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

I am he that gave the law.

I am he who covenanted with my people Israel.

I am the law, and the light.

I am the light which ye shall hold up.

Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.

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Also at Armageddon when the Savior appears at the Mount of Olives to the Jews.

 

At this time the Jews will still not be converted and then the Savior appears they see the wounds in His hands and His feet and they do not fully recognize that this is Jesus of Nazareth.  Then the Savior will say, I AM he who was lifted up.  I AM Jesus who was crucified.  I AM the Son of God.  And just as it says in Exodus 3: 13-15, "This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."  Then the Jews will get teh connection between Jesus that was crucified and Jehovah the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses...

 

48 And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount, and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.
49 And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.
50 And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.
51 And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?
52 Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.
53 And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king.
(D&C 45:48-53)

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Its worth noting that the gospel of John and the Book of Book of Mormon are far more declarative of Christ's claim that he is God than the other testaments.  Not sure if you like to discuss what makes gospels unique or not, but the context of John's record of Jesus is later and hence different than the other three.

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Truman Madsen extended the "I am" to "ye are" I have that written somewhere, somewhere I know I do

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I was hoping OP was claiming they were mentioned in the Book of John and was ready for some really nice crazy. Thread title did not deliver. :( 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I was hoping OP was claiming they were mentioned in the Book of John and was ready for some really nice crazy. Thread title did not deliver. :( 

Just give everyone more time

Q: Where are you most often when you read MDDB?

A: See thread title

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6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

(Exodus 3:14)

 

I believe that any "I AM" statements made by the Savior would have been understood by the Jews in the context of Exodus 3:14.  He was essentially declaring to them that he was their God, which is one of the reasons that the Pharisees were so upset with Him.

Not necessarily that Jesus was their God, but that he was in possession of the divine name, which was a vehicle for divine agency (see Exod 23:20–21). The Greek translation of Exodus 3:14 ("I am the one who is") is in view. Christ's possession of the divine name is repeatedly highlighted throughout the New Testament as an indication of his privileged and unique position. I published a paper in 2017 that touches on this (here; esp. pp. 658–62).

 

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5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Its worth noting that the gospel of John and the Book of Book of Mormon are far more declarative of Christ's claim that he is God than the other testaments.  Not sure if you like to discuss what makes gospels unique or not, but the context of John's record of Jesus is later and hence different than the other three.

Plain and precious things.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 4:04 PM, Dan McClellan said:

Not necessarily that Jesus was their God, but that he was in possession of the divine name, which was a vehicle for divine agency (see Exod 23:20–21). The Greek translation of Exodus 3:14 ("I am the one who is") is in view. Christ's possession of the divine name is repeatedly highlighted throughout the New Testament as an indication of his privileged and unique position. I published a paper in 2017 that touches on this (here; esp. pp. 658–62).

 

Interesting comments. What name was written in the Urim V’Tummim?

Quote

The "Urim V'Tummim" “And you shall place the Urim V'tummim in the breastplate of judgment, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he comes before G-d." (ibid. v. 30)

The "Urim V'Tummim" is the Name of G-dThe Urim V'Tummim was the famed, oracle-like aspect of the breastplate by which a Heavenly answer was received for important questions. According to most authoritative opinions, the expression urim v'tummim actually refers not to the breastplate itself, but to the mystical Divine name of G-d which was written on a piece of parchment and inserted into a flap of the garment. The presence of the name facilitated the reception of Divine guidance through the shining of specific letters on the stones.

The Identity of G-d is the Source of Creation What does this mean? What are the implications of this fact, the knowledge that it is the name of G-d itself which brought about the illumination of the urim v'tummim? This is indeed a lofty concept, but one whose lesson can be readily appreciated, at least on a simple level of understanding.

G-d is the Creator of all existence; His power is unlimited. He has no form whatsoever, neither has He beginning or end... He is the Supreme Being. He is perfect and absolute unity. And He is also totally unknowable.

Yet in numerous passages throughout the Bible, we are commanded to "know" G-d. "In all of your ways, know Him"(Proverbs 3:6); "And I shall betroth you in faith, and you shall know the L-rd" (Hosea 2:22) are but two examples of many such instances.

Truly, how can we come to know G-d, who is omnipotent and infinite? Yet we are commanded - and therefore expected to do just that. And there is a general rule with regard to the Torah's commandments: the Holy One never makes unfair demands on a person (BT Avodah Zara 3:A).

Knowledge of G-d Through His Names The sages of Israel teach that one way to know G-d is through awareness of His relationship to the universe which He created. Although it is taught that "no thought can grasp Him at all" (Tikkunei Zohar 17:A), and ultimately G-d's essence is not only unknowable, but unnamable as well-still, G-d's names describe His relationship with creation (Shemot Rabbah 3:6). Through these attributes of Divine interaction, we can at least attempt some glimpse of His greatness, according to our limited intellect. There are a number of names used throughout the Bible; one denotes the attribute of Divine mercy; another the aspect of strict judgment, and so on.

These Divine names of G-d are merely appellations which He has entitled us to use; they are not His true identity, which is beyond the reach of human knowledge. But it was through these names that G-d created heaven and earth, and it is by way of His names that He continues to direct every minute aspect of existence. Thus it is obvious that G-d's names, through which He summoned forth all creation from nothing at all, have great power. This power is the secret behind the prophetic revelation of the urim v'tummim.

https://www.templeinstitute.org/beged/priestly_garments-8.htm

Given the various “I am.......” names  noted here, wouldn’t we LDS say his name (his true identity) is Christ or Jesus Christ? That name was revealed to Jacob son pf Lehi and to the Nephites.

2 Nephi 10

Quote

3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews.....

2 Nephi 25

Quote

19 For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 

3 Nephi 9

Quote

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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4 hours ago, gopher said:

Just give everyone more time

Q: Where are you most often when you read MDDB?

A: See thread title

At work. ;) 

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3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Plain and precious things.

Hot Dogs and mustard. 

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11 hours ago, firepatch36 said:

....................................

There are five times when Jesus declares “I am.”

While talking to the woman at the well, Jesus the KJV in John 4:26 has “Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.” But a better/actual translation is: “I am [is] the one speaking to you.” (Huntsman, Becoming the Beloved Disciple, p. 63)

When with the disciples during the raging sea, in John 6:20 the translation in the KJV is “But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid” but Huntsman notes that the Greek used is ego eimi which is “I am” (p. 74).

In John 8:58 Jesus states, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” and the reaction was to stone him.

.............................

Jesus’ used the term "I am" in John 8:58-59 (deliberately from Exodus 3:14) in the Temple precincts, undoubtedly in Hebrew, in a uniquely blasphemous way:  Albright analyzed the use of the Hebrew 1st person qal-causative-indicative verbal form of hwy in Exodus 3:14 ’Ehye as a divine epithet or title meaning “I-Cause-to-Come-Into-Existence; It-Is-I-who-Create.”   The Tetragrammaton YHWH (Jehovah) is merely the 3rd person form of that same verb, meaning “He-(Who)-Causes-to-Come-Into-Existence; It-Is-He-Who-Creates” (Exodus 6:3), that is the qal-causative-indicative form Yāhwē (jussive Yāhû).

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Hot Dogs and mustard. 

Hmmmm. OK............

Edited by Bernard Gui

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8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmmm. OK............

See?  Neither of us know what the other is saying. Maybe we can speak plainly to one another?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

See?  Neither of us know what the other is saying. Maybe we can speak plainly to one another?

What? I like plain peanut butter.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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On 5/10/2019 at 4:00 PM, The Nehor said:

I was hoping OP was claiming they were mentioned in the Book of John and was ready for some really nice crazy. Thread title did not deliver. :( 

Sorry to disappoint. I'll have to come up with a better discussion next time.

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On 5/10/2019 at 6:03 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting comments. What name was written in the Urim V’Tummim?

That's a tradition that doesn't have much basis, as near as I can tell, in the ancient texts or any of the artifacts. The Urim is mentioned independently apart from the Thummim just as many times as the two are mentioned together. They were some kind of means of divination, but the details about how it worked are all later Jewish tradition. If there was a divine name written on it, it most likely would have been YHWH.

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On 5/10/2019 at 9:00 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Jesus’ used the term "I am" in John 8:58-59 (deliberately from Exodus 3:14) in the Temple precincts, undoubtedly in Hebrew, in a uniquely blasphemous way:  Albright analyzed the use of the Hebrew 1st person qal-causative-indicative verbal form of hwy in Exodus 3:14 ’Ehye as a divine epithet or title meaning “I-Cause-to-Come-Into-Existence; It-Is-I-who-Create.”   The Tetragrammaton YHWH (Jehovah) is merely the 3rd person form of that same verb, meaning “He-(Who)-Causes-to-Come-Into-Existence; It-Is-He-Who-Creates” (Exodus 6:3), that is the qal-causative-indicative form Yāhwē (jussive Yāhû).

I tried to post this yesterday, but I got an error message. I'm not a fan of verbal etymologies for YHWH. There are a lot of problems with them. I think Josef Tropper has a much better account of the origins of the name here. Basically, the name was originally YHW, which is a place name that is known from 14th century BCE Egyptian texts. It was probably pronounced something like Yahû or Yahô. Two regional variants were Yah and Yaw, which is what we find when there is a Yahwistic theophoric element in personal names in Hebrew .Tropper looked at Akkadian and noticed that when the theophoric element occurred in a certain position in the name, it would also have a long /a/ at the end, which he argues is most likely a case ending, and specifically for the absolutive case. His argument is that this absolutive pronunciation with the final /a/ became a frozen form that adopted the consonant he as a mater lectionis, giving us YHWH. 

I'd also highlight a wonderful book by Katrin Williams called "I am He," which looks at the early Jewish and Christian understanding and rhetorical uses of the Hebrew formula אני הוא, "I am He," and its relationship to εγω ειμι in Mark and John. 

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5 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

I tried to post this yesterday, but I got an error message. I'm not a fan of verbal etymologies for YHWH. There are a lot of problems with them. I think Josef Tropper has a much better account of the origins of the name here. Basically, the name was originally YHW, which is a place name that is known from 14th century BCE Egyptian texts. It was probably pronounced something like Yahû or Yahô.

I take it that you are referring to the the lists of Syrian or Edomite toponyms which appear at Medinet Habu (ca. 1400 B.C., Rameses III) and at Soleb, Sudan (14th cent. BC, Amenhotep III Amun Temple) in Egyptian as yhw3, to be read as ya-h-wi, or the like, which fits the form in which it first appears in Amorite, yahwī (H.O. Thompson, “Yahweh,” in Freedman, ed., ABD, VI:1011, citing TDOT, 5:512).  We also encounter Yah as the God of Israel in an Egyptian Book of the Dead from the 18th or 19th Dynasty (Thomas Schneider, “The First Documented Occurrence of the God Yahweh? [Book of the Dead Princeton ‘Roll 5’)]” Journal of Ancient Near Eastern Religions, 7/2 [2007]:113-120).  

5 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

Two regional variants were Yah and Yaw, which is what we find when there is a Yahwistic theophoric element in personal names in Hebrew .

D. N. Freedman claimed that -yahu is pre-exilic, while -yah is post-exilic (cited in A. Berlin, Zephaniah, 67).

5 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

Tropper looked at Akkadian and noticed that when the theophoric element occurred in a certain position in the name, it would also have a long /a/ at the end, which he argues is most likely a case ending, and specifically for the absolutive case. His argument is that this absolutive pronunciation with the final /a/ became a frozen form that adopted the consonant he as a mater lectionis, giving us YHWH.

Hugh Nibley believed that the theophoric element -iah was rendered -ihah in the Book of Mormon (Hirsch Miller followed this same notion in his 1922 Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon), while Koehler & Baumgartner, HALOT, II:395, list Elephantine YHH as a variant of YHW.  

5 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

 I'd also highlight a wonderful book by Katrin Williams called "I am He," which looks at the early Jewish and Christian understanding and rhetorical uses of the Hebrew formula אני הוא, "I am He," and its relationship to εγω ειμι in Mark and John. 

Interesting that you should point that out, since Y. Muchiki takes the -îhû suffix of biblical Hebrew proper name ˁAnîhû as the Trigrammaton Yahu.  Just by analogy.  Indeed, the entirely phonetic Deseret Alphabet edition of Book of Mormon Ammonihah deletes the final -h- as otiose (^m-n[ha = æmʌnaj = ăměnayhā).  Approaching this from the Phoenician and Hebrew proper name ʼāmôn “Master-craftsman; Firm, Faithful, True,” as a qatol-form of the Hebrew root, Jo Ann Carlton Hackett suggested in this case that the meaning could be “Yahwe is (my) faithfulness.”

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On 5/10/2019 at 11:43 AM, firepatch36 said:

Here are some thought, partly inspired by Stephen Robinson who I had for New Testament, on the use of the phrase “I am”  in John.

 

There are seven “I am the NOUN” in John, which are found 12 times:

John 6:35, 48 and 51 - “I am the bread of life” or “living bread”

John 8:12; 9:5 - “I am the light of the world”

John 10:7, 9 - “I am the door of the sheep”

John 10:11, 14 - “I am the good shepherd”

John 11:25 - “I am the resurrection and the life”;

John 14:6 - “I am the way, the truth, and the light”

John 15:1, 5 - “I am the true vine”

 

There are five times when Jesus declares “I am.”

While talking to the woman at the well, Jesus the KJV in John 4:26 has “Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.” But a better/actual translation is: “I am [is] the one speaking to you.” (Huntsman, Becoming the Beloved Disciple, p. 63)

When with the disciples during the raging sea, in John 6:20 the translation in the KJV is “But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid” but Huntsman notes that the Greek used is ego eimi which is “I am” (p. 74).

In John 8:58 Jesus states, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” and the reaction was to stone him.

In John 10:36 Jesus reiterates that he is “I am” and the reaction was to take him.

Then in John 18:5 after the suffering in Gethsemane, Judas and the band of officers sought out Jesus. He simply told them “I am” (with the word “he” added by translators). Unlike before when the masses to kill him, now when Jesus declared his divinity, his testimony was so strong that “As soon then as he had said unto them, “I am,” they went backward, and fell to the ground.” (verse 6 with the added word “he” deleted).

All told this gives 12 different mentions of “I am” in John, a recurring number in the scriptures.

 

 

I tried to relate this to the temple. In John 2:19 Jesus says “destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”  While Jesus was speaking of his body, it is interesting to note that John the “I am” statements correlate with the temple.

The door (I am the door) of the temple was decorated with vines (I am the true vine), the bread (I am the bread of life) sat on a table inside the tabernacle on the north side, the south side had the menorah (I am the light). In the Holy of Holies the priest would utter the ineffable name of God – “I am.”

The three I ams not above are “I am the good shepherd” “I am the resurrection and the life” “I am the way, the truth, and the light.” These all fit in with temple but perhaps as not clear cut as bread.

 

Any thoughts, comments, improvements on this? This general topic is in the Sunday School manual and I’ll be going over it in a week.

I remember a while back. a Truman Madsen explanation:

He said I AM that I AM, which Moses was told was the name of God, at the Burning Bush, might be better translated as: I will become what I will become.

So when Jesus told Herod and Pilate, in response to Art thou a king then? I AM. He may have also been saying I will become.

 

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