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Joseph Smith: The World's Greatest Guesser

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On 5/12/2019 at 5:18 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

Volcanic eruptions are assumed because (1) exceedingly sharp lightnings, (2) fires, (3) thick darkness. Mesoamerica modelers also prefer reading volcanoes in 3 Nephi 8 because Mexico had active volcanoes at the time while the Heartland did not.

However,  ice core samples show no major global eruptions within 50-70 years of 34 AD. (source)

EFvk7yxAvL-3000x3000.pngThere were no major volcanic eruptions anywhere in the world when Christ died. The span between 43 BC and 95 AD even seems to be one of the quietest on record.

If i am reading that correctly, the two nearest 30 AD are also in the southern hemisphere, and are among the smallest - sometimes bad ideas die hard. Of course there are a few proponents of a S. America setting for the BoM. I feel the events of 3 Nephi are best explained by an earthquake and a storm.

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13 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 A more localized eruption could be possible but the three days of darkness that followed could not have been volcanic ash plumes as Grover suggests. Three days of darkness was experienced across the isles of the sea, not just America. If it was caused by volcanic eruptions severe enough to throw that much ash into the atmosphere we would see it in the ice core samples. 

3 Nephi 8-9 in describing the destruction do not use the phrase  "isles of the sea".  1 Nephi 19:10 has a paraphrase by Nephi that has it, but remember that Nephi got to where he was writing by means of first a sea voyage, and then a journey inland).  It matters that the Hebrews thought of any place that you traveled to by seas as an "isle of the sea."  Nephi's paraphrase is followed by a quote from Zenos saying that some because of righteousness will hear God's voice, and others various destructive displays.   Zeno specifically refers to Kings on the isles of the sea responding to "groanings of the earth" in 1 Nephi 19:12, though darkness is not explicitly specified.  In Helaman 14, Samuel refers to a sign of darkness for the birth, and then all sorts of severe signs for the death on "the face of this land" which is equivalent to the later phrase "face of the whole earth" in verse 27.  That phrase need not be global because "earth" and "land" are the same word in Hebrew, and Exodus speaks of locusts in Egypt covering the "face of the whole earth," making it clear that it is a relative, rather than omniscient, observation.  That is, don't confuse relative statements for absolutes.

The issue as I see it is that the overall details that Grover looks at (as a professional geologist who shows me his work, and does not make unsupported assertions or over-generalizations), fit nicely with 3 Nephi.  And he provides local evidence from the right time and place to be considered that does not, in my view, get canceled out by distant ice cores.  Rather, it raises issues that cannot be resolved by current ice core evidence.

And over my life time of exploring these issues, I have noticed that the trend is for puzzles to get resolved, and the overall case for the Book of Mormon gets better and more impressive with time and inquiry.   So I am willing to give things time, keep my eyes open, and re-examine my assumptions now and then.

And Cliodude, I am not a newbie at this stuff.

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/people/kevin-christensen/

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/kevinc/

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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On 5/22/2019 at 8:17 AM, Kevin Christensen said:

3 Nephi 8-9 in describing the destruction do not use the phrase  "isles of the sea".  1 Nephi 19:10 has a paraphrase by Nephi that has it, but remember that Nephi got to where he was writing by means of first a sea voyage, and then a journey inland).  It matters that the Hebrews thought of any place that you traveled to by seas as an "isle of the sea."  Nephi's paraphrase is followed by a quote from Zenos saying that some because of righteousness will hear God's voice, and others various destructive displays.   Zeno specifically refers to Kings on the isles of the sea responding to "groanings of the earth" in 1 Nephi 19:12, though darkness is not explicitly specified.  In Helaman 14, Samuel refers to a sign of darkness for the birth, and then all sorts of severe signs for the death on "the face of this land" which is equivalent to the later phrase "face of the whole earth" in verse 27.  That phrase need not be global because "earth" and "land" are the same word in Hebrew, and Exodus speaks of locusts in Egypt covering the "face of the whole earth," making it clear that it is a relative, rather than omniscient, observation.  That is, don't confuse relative statements for absolutes.

The issue as I see it is that the overall details that Grover looks at (as a professional geologist who shows me his work, and does not make unsupported assertions or over-generalizations), fit nicely with 3 Nephi.  And he provides local evidence from the right time and place to be considered that does not, in my view, get canceled out by distant ice cores.  Rather, it raises issues that cannot be resolved by current ice core evidence.

And over my life time of exploring these issues, I have noticed that the trend is for puzzles to get resolved, and the overall case for the Book of Mormon gets better and more impressive with time and inquiry.   So I am willing to give things time, keep my eyes open, and re-examine my assumptions now and then.

And Cliodude, I am not a newbie at this stuff.

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/people/kevin-christensen/

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/kevinc/

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Volcanoes are not consistent with the text of the Book of Mormon:

3 Nephi 10:9 And it came to pass that thus did the three days pass away. And it was in the morning, and the adarkness dispersed from off the face of the land, and the earth did cease to tremble, and the brocks did cease to rend, and the dreadful groanings did cease, and all the tumultuous noises did pass away.

This indicates the darkness dispersed at the same time as the earth ceased to tremble. The trembling of the earth and the darkness were related to each other. (Volcanic ash would still be in the air after an eruption.)

This verse is consistent with what was reported during the New Madrid quake of 1811-1812: https://missourilife.com/new-madrid-earthquakes-1811-1812/

"As Pierce and his traveling companions watched, the earth opened up before them, sending “a volcanic discharge of combustible matter” skyward. “The earth, river, etc., torn with furious convulsions, opened in huge trenches. There through a thousand vents sulphurous streams gushed from its very bowels leaving vast and almost unfathomable caverns,” wrote Pierce."

" Everyone in the community rushed out into the winter night, to be met with the overpowering stench of sulfur. "

" In the bitter cold, the settlers remained outdoors throughout the night, as the temblors renewed every few minutes. The earth’s emanations of smoke, water, dirt, and steam, amid an overpowering sulfurous stench, blocked the view of the moon and stars as a cacophony of terrified animal sounds and the roar of the quake engulfed the stunned community standing in near-total darkness."

" Around 7 am December 16, another quake struck, every bit as powerful as the first. By this time, the air had filled with fog and the vapors spewed from within the earth. As the settlers watched, the ground bucked and rolled, opening fissures that spit rocks and sand high into the air. An inescapable vision of hell had descended upon New Madrid, and there was no place to hide. "

" Pervading everything was the sickening pall of sulfur."

 

Most of you have a Mesoamerica mindset, thus volcanoes - inconsistent logic - despite Oliver Cowdery stating in Letter VII that the Hill Cumorah where the final battles were, is in New York.

Also the Mesoamerica theory originated with the RLDS Church back when Joseph F. Smith and his First Cousin, Joseph Smith III, were simultaneously Presidents of the LDS and RLDS Churches, respectively.

The "Utah" Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was in the process of purchasing the Hill Cumorah and some surrounding lands, finalized after President Joseph F. Smith's death.

The RLDS Church couldn't afford to, so it downplayed the importance of the Hill Cumorah being in New York and instead came up with the idea of the Hill Cumorah being in Mesoamerica.

Joseph F. Smith's son, Joseph Fielding Smith spoke out again the Mesoamerica theory, when he was the Church Historian and Apostle.

But the RLDS Church's Mesoamerica Theory was spread into Utah when the RLDS Church sent  missionaries to Utah in the 1920s. Here's a list of CofC Congregations, some in Utah as you can see: https://www.cofchrist.org/find-a-congregation

And a list of Restoration Branches, which broke off of the CofC church in the 1980s: http://www.eldersconference.org/files/content/RESTORATION%20BRANCHES%20%20DIRECTORY%20%20%20April%201%202017.pdf

This is the RLDS/CofC/Restoration Branches "Book of Mormon Foundation" where they send youth to Mesoamerica for Book of Mormon studies and promote the Maya as Book of Mormon characters: https://www.bomf.org/internship.html

This is the RLDS/CofC https://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/  Hill Cumorah Expedition Team. If you search the site, they claim they found the Hill Cumorah and its cave.

These RLDS/CofC/Restoration Branch members are Mormons. They believe in The Book of Mormon. You can read their many testimonies on these sites.

They just are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, because they don't believe Brigham Young was Joseph Smith's successor, thus they don't have the priesthood and revelatory keys.

A good reason why Pres. Nelson has asked us to use the full name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.centerplace.info/ This shows a list of Churches which broke off from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and some from the CofC church, calling themselves Restoration Branches. Again, they all believe in The Book of Mormon.

 

This is the autobiography of HA Stebbins. http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100746.pdf

He mentions in the page number 194: " I sat down and began to go over the antiquarian writings of John L. Stephens, Josiah Priest, J.D. Baldwin, C. G. Foster, H. H. Bancro:fit, Desire Charney, W. H. Prescott, and other historians. The first distinct instruction given me was, "Take the Jaredites first, as the first people who came." The next was to take up the narrative and follow it in its order clear through. In the first I was astonished at the clear proofs brought to my attention, those I had never heard any of our ministers use nor seen in any writings. As I continued the Holy Spirit bore witness ,to me in such power and gave me light I had never had before. All fear and dread left me and I made page after page of references and quotations to use in the sermons."

I emphasized the above in bold underline, because he ignored his leaders. He ignored Oliver Cowdery in Letter VII, which should have been well known, since HA Stebbins was born in 1844.

This is HA Stebbins published Book of Mormon lectures where he ignores North America as a Book of Mormon setting: http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/101148.pdf

HA Stebbins is mentioned by RLDS Scholar Louise E Hills in his 1924 book: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=Stebbins;id=wu.89058377359;view=1up;seq=115;start=1;sz=10;page=search;orient=0

LE Hills was the first Book of Mormon Scholar to confine the Book of Mormon geography and the "original" Hill Cumorah in Central America. These are references to the work Cumorah in his same 1924 book:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=cumorah&id=wu.89058377359&view=1up&seq=115

As you can see, he questions the Hill Cumorah being in New York.

MY POINT BEING - the whole volcano issue is based on a false premise of the geography of The Book of Mormon being located in Mesoamerica, which idea originated with the RLDS Church which origins started by not following Brigham Young.

Here you can see HA Stebbins' name on a reproduced 1916 document which disclaims any association with Brigham Young. http://www.centerplace.org/library/Study/GCRall.htm

 

The admins around here don't like me, because I point all this stuff out. Thus they revoked my starting a new thread, or posting pictures.

But this is the truth: The Mesoamerica Geography Theory originated with the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

Knowing this, why do you promote this RLDS Mesoamerica Geography Theory?

A rhetorical question, because I know you would answer that you don't agree. Facts do not matter to some, apparently. A complicated scholarly approach is more important.

Kind regards,

Burnside

 

 

 

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To follow up, the Admins don't even allow the URLs I pasted above to be "clickable."

This is how scared they are, or whoever is asking them to censor me - how scared they are that it should be made known that the Mesoamerica Geography Theory for the Book of Mormon originated with the RLDS Church as far back as the late 1800s and into the 1920s and is now being promoted by some LDS Members in UTAH.

Quite odd, since I've been a faithful member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all my life, served a two-year mission in Venezuela back in the day when North American missionaries were allowed in Venezuela, and recently finished a two-year commitment as a Temple Worker in the baptistry of the Gilbert Arizona Temple. I saw the change made by Pres. Monson allowing Priests to perform Temple Baptisms and be Witnesses, when before only endowed Melchizedek priesthood holders were allowed to baptize, and the more recent in January of this year of allowing of 11-year old deacons to participate as proxies.

But what do other members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints care about the TRUTH, if it conflicts with their preconceived erroneous ideas about the Book of Mormon and its geography? Very little, apparently.

Makes me wonder who they follow, the Leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or some confused LDS Scholars who promote a plagiarized Mesoamerica Book of Mormon geography theory from the confused RLDS Church which changed its name to Community of Christ, around 1986 and it's breakaway "Restoration Branches."

Edited by Burnside

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