49 replies to this topic

[enummaelish]

Hello stn9:

Quote

This accomodates both Alma 12 and D&C 76 very nicely, as well as matches a little known teaching of Hyrum Smith and D&C 130:18-19.

Yours is an interesting view.  It certainly makes more sense to me than suggesting that no progression takes place in the eternities.  Apparently Hyrum publicly taught that �?¢â?¬�??those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial�?¢â?¬�? as cited by Franklin D. Richards, �?¢â?¬�??Scriptural Items,�?¢â?¬�?  1 Aug. 1843.  Anyone else know anything about this statement that appears in the Church Archives?

Edited by enummaelish, 06 March 2005 - 07:22 PM.

[Zeta-Flux]

I think people have missed the most straightforward revelation on the subject:

D&C 132:
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

This implies, to my mind, that whether or not there is progression among kingdoms; one cannot progress from a non-exalted state to exaltation, after the final judgement.  They cannot be enlarged.  They remain without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity. From henceforth are not gods, forever and ever.

[gaucho]

Moxy, on Mar 6 2005, 05:25 PM, said:

Quote

Will children ever be tested?

Absolutely not! Any idea that they will be tested in paradise or during the millennium or after the millennium is pure fantasy. Why would a resurrected being, who has already come forth from the grave with a celestial body and whose salvation is guaranteed, be tested? Would the Lord test someone who cannot fail the test and whose exaltation is guaranteed? For that matter, all those billions of people who will be born during the millennium, when Satan is bound, "shall grow up without sin unto salvation" (D&C 45:58) and therefore will not be tested. "Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56-57.) Such is the emphatic language of President Joseph Fielding Smith.

Also, on another meesage board, I started a thread called, " Did we blow it in the pre existence?" You can read it here:

This is WRONG!!!!  Ofcourse everyone will need to tested and to learn.  That is the ONLY purpose of this and other lives to learn and progress.  You cannot expect someone to build a car if  they  dont even know what  a car is. Duh!!!
To think that children will somehow inherient divine knowledge AND divine EXPERIENCE is ludiroucous.

I agree that everyone will need to be tested, but I beleive the quote above is referring to children who died before the age of accountability being tested in paradise or during the millenium. The theory being they won't because they are already exalted. What I am getting from this is they already passed the test in the preexistence. They were so righeous and obedient that they had their calling and election made sure prior to coming to Earth and thus only needed to come here to gain a body. There was no need for them to pass through the trials of Mortality because they have already proven themselves.

[enummaelish]

Hello Zeta-Flux:

Do you realize that if you choose to read D&C 132 literally, then little children will never be exalted since �?¢â?¬�??they are out of the world [and] they neither marri[ed] nor [were] given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory�?¢â?¬�??  

Of course the same is true for all those who died without a temple marriage including those who never had a chance to even hear the Restored Gospel message.  I�?¢â?¬â?¢m certain, therefore, that you do not simply read this revelation literally, but rather believe that individuals who have already passed from this realm of existence will someday have a chance to receive the proper ordinances that will allow them to enter exaltation.  

The fact that children will receive such ordinances after their resurrection clearly indicates that God has made allowances for this scenario.  �?¢â?¬�??Precisely what the Lord will require in the form of ordinances, or other requirements, for spirits who died as infants or children on earth in order to receive exaltation has not been revealed.  Certain it is that we do not currently endow children who die before accountability nor do we seal them to a spouse.  But this does not mean that the blessings of these latter ordinances are unavailable to them�?¢â?¬�?  Ensign, June 1981, 36.  Elder McConkie confirmed this teaching, �?¢â?¬�??Will children be married and live in the family unit?  Certainly.  There can be no question about this.  If they gain�?¢â?¬�?¦ exaltation, it means that they are married and live in the family unit�?¢â?¬�? Ensign, April 1977, 5.  

Hence, not only can individuals receive the sacred ordinance of temple marriage in the next realm, but also they can even receive temple ordinances after their resurrection.  We�?¢â?¬â?¢re back to the issue that either God violates the law of agency by �?¢â?¬�??taking�?¢â?¬�? all the righteous little ones prior to their accountability, or eternally bound telestial folks were very, very, unlucky.  Exaltation cannot come down to luck, and God does not line up his most righteous spirit children from the preexistence and place them in situations were they will die before age eight.  

This is why I believe Elder Talmage, President Young, President Clark, Elder Roberts, and many more, who have expressed their opinions that all will eventually have an opportunity to receive exaltation through the Atonement of Christ.  It is the only view which to me makes sense.

[enummaelish]

Hello Gaucho:

Quote

I agree that everyone will need to be tested, but I beleive the quote above is referring to children who died before the age of accountability being tested in paradise or during the millenium. The theory being they won't because they are already exalted. What I am getting from this is they already passed the test in the preexistence. They were so righeous and obedient that they had their calling and election made sure prior to coming to Earth and thus only needed to come here to gain a body. There was no need for them to pass through the trials of Mortality because they have already proven themselves.

I assume that you realize the implications of your perspective.  God lines up all of the best ones and puts them into situations were they will die before they reach age eight.  So much for agency.  I really don�?¢â?¬â?¢t believe that God is responsible for the death of all children before the age of accountability which is the only way this perspective would work.

[Ray Agostini]

The possibility of eternal progression, including speculation about the possible redemption even of the sons of perdition, something which many GAs have speculated on, and other essays on the subject can be found in Line Upon Line: Essays in Mormon Doctrine, Gary James Bergera (Signature Books).

http://www.signaturebooks.com/line.htm

Quote

For anyone who has assumed that Mormon doctrine appeared whole-cloth in a single revelation, Line Upon Line is an important primer. No issue, however central to Latter-day Saint theology, is exempt from gradual development over time. This includes the nature of God, the progression of the soul, free agency, the possibility of repentance and forgiveness through a divine sacrifice, the creation of the world, evolution of the species, and the nature and origin of evil.

[yaanufs]

Very interesting topic enummaelish.  I see where you're coming from.

I've phoned President Hinckley to ask his opinion on this fundamental matter that revolves around a core aspect of LDS theology.  He has given a definitive answer so we can rest easy.  He said

Quote

I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know that we teach it. I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know that we emphasize it. I haven�?¢â?¬â?¢t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know. I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know all the circumstances under which this doctrine was mentioned. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know a lot about it and I don�?¢â?¬â?¢t know that others know a lot about it.

[Zeta-Flux]

enummaelish,

Quote

Do you realize that if you choose to read D&C 132 literally, then little children will never be exalted since �?¢â?¬�??they are out of the world [and] they neither marri[ed] nor [were] given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory�?¢â?¬�??

To read it this way is to fundamentally misunderstand who the Lord is talking about.  The Lord is talking about those who married in this life, but never by His will, and are made angels but not Gods.  Read the section in context.

Quote

Of course the same is true for all those who died without a temple marriage including those who never had a chance to even hear the Restored Gospel message. I�?¢â?¬â?¢m certain, therefore, that you do not simply read this revelation literally, but rather believe that individuals who have already passed from this realm of existence will someday have a chance to receive the proper ordinances that will allow them to enter exaltation.

That is why, in my original post, I said "after the final judgement."  Once someone is appointed to be an angel then they remain an angel forever and ever, and can never be enlarged, etc...  Before the final judgement, while someone is still in the spirit world, they have a chance to repent and accept ordinances performed for them by those on this world.

Quote

The fact that children will receive such ordinances after their resurrection clearly indicates that God has made allowances for this scenario. �?¢â?¬�??Precisely what the Lord will require in the form of ordinances, or other requirements, for spirits who died as infants or children on earth in order to receive exaltation has not been revealed. Certain it is that we do not currently endow children who die before accountability nor do we seal them to a spouse. But this does not mean that the blessings of these latter ordinances are unavailable to them�?¢â?¬�? Ensign, June 1981, 36. Elder McConkie confirmed this teaching, �?¢â?¬�??Will children be married and live in the family unit? Certainly. There can be no question about this. If they gain�?¢â?¬�?¦ exaltation, it means that they are married and live in the family unit�?¢â?¬�? Ensign, April 1977, 5.

What you seemed to have missed is that the verses I quoted from D&C 132 do not talk about these people.  They talk about those who have been appointed angels.  If that happens, then they "cannot be enlarged."  Children are not appointed angels to minister to others.  They are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding glory.

Quote

Hence, not only can individuals receive the sacred ordinance of temple marriage in the next realm, but also they can even receive temple ordinances after their resurrection.

Perhaps so (I am of the opinion that something like this CAN happen to those who are worthy to become Gods).  However, the Lord has plainly told us, in D&C 132, that for a certain class of people this does not happen, ever.

Quote

This is why I believe Elder Talmage, President Young, President Clark, Elder Roberts, and many more, who have expressed their opinions that all will eventually have an opportunity to receive exaltation through the Atonement of Christ. It is the only view which to me makes sense.

Yes.  But those who had their opportunity in this life, and did not receive exaltation at the final judgement, and are appointed angels, do not get another chance to obtain it.  That is what D&C 132 clearly states.  

Best,
Zeta-Flux

Edited by Zeta-Flux, 07 March 2005 - 10:19 AM.

[stn9]

enummaelish,

I reviewed the microfilm of "Scriptural Items" in the Church Archives several months ago in order to verify the typescript I had been given years ago (there were some minor errors such as capitalization and some punctuation, if I recall correctly, but nothing to change the meaning of the entry), and it is indeed recorded as you posted; I give more of the entry here (does not correct the errors I found in my review because I have not yet entered them and will have to find my hand written transcription):

Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st [18]43 Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] "waxes & wanes".

Given the date of this teaching by the Associate President of the Church to the Nauvoo High Council and the historical circumstances around this time, I feel it is likely that Hyrum was teaching something he and Joseph had discussed. Franklin D. Richards, who recorded the above, felt confident enough in Hyrum or this teaching that he later preached the same across the pulpit as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve:

...but those in the terrestrial kingdom are those who will come forth at the time when Enoch comes back, when the Savior comes again to dwell upon the earth.... They will go forward, like unto the new moon, increasing in knowledge and brightness and glory, until they come to a fullness of celestial glory. During the Millennium multitudes of people who have not heard the gospel will hear and receive it and go forward into this glory, while those who will not go forward to a fullness will go back to that lesser glory which is likened unto the stars of heaven.... (Journal of Discourses, 25:236)

It is also worth noting that though there are four (4) possible outcomes�?¢â?¬â?Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, and outer darkness�?¢â?¬â?yet there are only 2 resurrections spoken of in the revelations: The first covers the Celestial and Terrestrial, while the second covers the others. It may be (accordng to my best understanding) that if you rise in the first resurrection you have the possibility to progress, or that your resurrected body still has the ability to receive more glory. For instance, consider the teaching that "it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned" all the principles of exaltation and "it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave" (TPJS, 348). Joseph does not say specifically that this learning will continue past your resurrection, but I think this idea is certainly not excluded by the Prophet's reported language.

Furthermore, apparently the term "the second death" is not applied to those of the Terrestrial kingdom. Elder McConkie, for instance, while a staunch opponent to the idea, states that D&C 88:99 referes to "the afternoon of the first resurrection; it takes place after our Lord has ushered in the millennium. Those coming forth at that time do so with terrestrial bodies and are thus destined to inherit a terrestrial glory in eternity" (Mormon Doctrine, s.v. Resurrection). I wonder how he or we can concluded that those spoken of in this verse are "are Christ's at his coming [and are they] who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh" if receiving the Gospel means they learn of an exaltation they can never obtain.

Imagine the door approach or opening statement in a lesson: "We would like to declare unto the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ which will help you understand why you can't go anywhere from here; in other words we are here to proclaim your eternal damnation despite the fact that some of you never had a chance in before now to hear this good news."

Also to consider, compare the following:

D&C 138:58-59
The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

D&C 76:88
And also the telestial receive it [God's fulness] of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

I would submit, given that Brigham Young declared that the "ordinances of the house of God are expressly for the Church of the Firstborn" (Journal of Discourses, 8:154), that there is no need to have the dead "[obey] the ordinances of the house of the of God"�?¢â?¬â?which permit one to "enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant" (D&C 107:19)�?¢â?¬â?if they could not in fact go where God and Christ dwell. Again, it is of the those who inheret the Telestial kingdom that the scripture says "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Understanding this key�?¢â?¬â?in my opinion�?¢â?¬â?also helps bring D&C 131:1-4 and related teachings into sharper focus. There is more to consider (i.e. D&C 132:15-19), but this long enough for one post.

[KevinG]

If I may introduce a distinction that is important to my understanding of this issue...

I believe that damnation applies to those who willingly and knowingly reject progression rather than those who have not yet had a chance to receive more.

This leaves our agency in tact, eternally, because in essence we choose the point at which growth and progression are too much for us to bear, and settle into our level or sphere.

The grinding of teeth comes at the point we may realize our blessings denied us because of our addictions, weakness or blindness.

Which begs the next question for me...  Is repentance an eternal principle in the sense that even if we have settled at a level, if we repent (after this life) do we still get to progress?  

In other words are the "levels" of heaven a construct to help us understand progression or are they fixed spheres, that once this life is over set our place in the celestial order, never again to be revised, or the third option, are we so set in our ways by the time we complete this life, that none of us will desire to progress further than we have here, unless we have been so faithful as to qualify for continued progression?

[stn9]

en...ish, comments on D&C 132:19 I mentioned in above post for you are in this post.

zflux,

I wanted to mention a few points on D&C 132:15-19.

Verse 15: If a man and woman get married in the world (I take this to mean mortality) and that marriage is not according to God's instruction and authority, they will not be considered married after they die.

Verse 16: Such individuals as outlined in verse 15 will not be married in the next world but will be angels.

Verse 17: Such individuals as outlined in verse 15 did not abide the law of eternal marriage and cannot have offspring ("be enlarged"), and will remain separate and single FOR EVER and will be be angels, not gods.

Now, note that if you read just these three verses literally and with no further context or doctrinal understanding, one can mistakely claim that no provision is made for them to be exalted, for it categoricaly states they will not be married but will remain single "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity...."

However, we know that there is a condition not mentioned in 132: proxy temple ordinances. When someone as described in verse 15 dies and is able to and does in fact accept the ordinances that have been performed by proxy for them, then in God's eyes they are treated as they if they were married for eternity while alive.

When non-temple sealed couples who are dead hear the gospel preached unto them in spirit prison, and when they receive the gospel gladly, and when their ordinances are performed for them by proxy, they no longer meet the requirements eternal singlehood as outlined in D&C 132:15-17 becasue they have then obeyed God's law of marriage.

You have interjected your own understanding or interpretation of D&C 132 by saying that it refers to a time after the final judgement�?¢â?¬â?that once you are judged you cannot change.

To be technical, once you are resurrected you are judged; you will receive a body of glory that corresponds with the kingdom you will inherit. Thus, if you lived before the Second Coming and are NOT resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection, you would have to conclude that you will be an angel and never have the chance to be exalted.

So, for instance, what happens to a man or woman who is married in mortality by some earthly government or religion, who dies of cancer 6 days before the Second Coming, and who with a few hundred years of teaching and learning and obedience in the spirit world accpets the Gospel? What is the cutoff date for a Celestial resurrection for those who lived before the Second Coming? Is it 200 years into the Millenium? Is it the instant before the earth is celestialized? You have said it is when the final judgment starts, or I guess technically the last possible instant before it starts.

Then there is the issue of when a person who fits the conditions of 132:15-18�?¢â?¬â?one who neither marries in mortality by the correct authority nor accepts the doctrine of proxy ordinances after this life. When are they resurrected? You have seemed to imply that such individuals could be in either the first or second resurrection, and will go into either the Terrestrial or Telestial kindoms, or outer darkness. But what if D&C 132:14-18 refers to only the second resurrection? Or only to those of the second and those who have been resurrected into the Terrestrial but then choose to reject the doctrines and ordinances? It is not clear from the passage itself; we have to superimpose a pre-conceived idea upon the text.

I see nothing in 132 that prevents progression from any and all kingdoms after the resurrection. I do see 132 the doctrine in it Alma 12:9-11�?¢â?¬â?there are only two ultimate, possible, glorious outcomes in the resurrection (outer darkness is not glorious): exaltation to godhood or resurrection to become an angel.

I think that to categorically declare that there is no progression between kingdoms, based on an undeclared but generally accepted notion that the resurrection�?¢â?¬â?to any kingdom other than the highest heaven or degree of the celestial kingdom�?¢â?¬â?makes your future permanent, fixed, and unalterable for all eternity, is the real error.

Then there is D&C 132:19, which McConkie states is the most misunderstood of all passages in the scriptures. Without a long discussion of what it truly means, I will simply say that if a man and woman are sealed up unto eternal life (which is not the same as being sealed in a temple marriage) they may then desend to the lowest height, short of becoming a son of perdition, and still they can be forgiven and be exalted to the highest kingdom. That's how I interpret this verse.

Now consider: if a person can ascend so high as to be sealed up unto eternal life as outlined in D&C 132:19 and D&C 131:5, and then descend to any sinful state short of denying the Holy Ghost, and then re-ascend, at what point do you say that a person of lesser obedience swings or lesser spiritual achievement in this life will be cut off from exaltation? At the resurrection? At the final judgement? So, if you are too slow in your eternal progress your time really will run out? Only the cyclically fast or progressively quick can be exalted? Again, you would have to say that a person who can quickly ascend to the promise of exaltation and then fall, and then reascend before the final judgement are the only ones to whom D&C 132:19 apply; the less spiritually rushed among us�?¢â?¬â?to say nothing of those who seem to flounder so in the lower levels of sin which the very intelligent can descend to and then be exalted from�?¢â?¬â?will simply not meet the deadline.

Well, to the Christian world the dead line is indeed the line of death; most Latter-day Saints buck against this primitive thinking and place the dead line back a few dozen to a few thousand years in the resurrection or at the latest the final judgement; what if we still have not collectively come to a full understanding?

I say let Alma, and Joseph, and Hyrum, and Brigham be your guide.

Edited by stn9, 07 March 2005 - 12:59 PM.

[BlueDreams]

Well, since this is all speculation, then I'll throw in my own two cents if I may.

Quote

Of course that raises another question. Either you can advance forever, or you cannot. How then can the answer lie somewhere in between?

As it was stated there would need to be some middle between justice and mercy, and I do not see why there couldn't be between the two scenerios above. Firstly, Earth and the plan are all about, to me anyways, a change not only physically but spiritually, a maturation of the state of souls. To begin we started as spirits then our paradigm, our understanding of being changed into that physical bog and enlightenment by new senses and learning the balance of control and freedom. In scriptures they talk of the heavens being open and their eyes being opened; that too is part of our change in undestanding and maturing and throughout all that the changes are linked to the spiritual. That is how I see the kingdoms of heaven, not as physical depots to drop people off, but broad planes of spiritual understanding where we are destined through what we have done with our states in soul/our relationship with G-d. And this, i think, would be the key here, is our nature in soul. It is said that all the dead will be judged by their works, which is a measure of our faith, which in full is a measure of our spirit and our connection to G-d our willingness to learn and obey and serve and become. If we are judged and found lacking in these things, how is it possible to progress?  This isn't a simple fix, there is no simple way to change and move forward. It's our soul, its the true desires within our heart when our Father isn't physically present and it is a cleaner more freer choice to follow Him or not, to decide if we'd rather find acceptance and compensation within our own lusts, desires, and sins, or in the steps of Christ no matter our trials, confusions, and fears. Sure, maybe we could change from kingdom to kingdom, but the true question is whether our hearts will allow it. After all its talked of the people being cast down by wailing and nashing of teeth, obviously they desire the kingdom of the Father, but for what purpose? Is it their own personal fears and lusts for self-preservation or the wish and desire to fulfill G-d's ultimate plans for us, to be apart, and to progress further for the exemplification of not ourselves but for others, for a greater goal.

With luv,
BD

[yaanufs]

Can I be so bold as to throw in a thought on a part of the discussion that was mentioned earlier.  That of the righteousness of children that die before accountability.

It apears from my dealings with LDS friends and family that some actually believe that those children who die before accountability are the elect of God, super obedient and righteous beings from pre-earth life who mearly have to come to earth, get a body and then leave before accountability kicks in.

LDS doctrine also discusses the curse of Cain and pretty clearly, but not openly, teaches that those who are born under this curse were less valient in the pre-earth life.

Now look at the world demographics.  Most children who die under the age of 8 are born into black families in Africa.  Very few children of 'elect' Utah LDS families die under the age of 8.

Are we now claiming that those spirits born to black families in Africa are actually the real elect?  So many of them die before the age of acountability, they must be better than most of the kids born to LDS families.

Does any of this make sense?

[stn9]

Dadof7, beautiful questions that while beyond complete answering now are not and should not be beyond our attention now.

For all, the last semi-offical statement I have is the following (I say semi-offical not because the First Presidency did not direct the answer but because it was sent privately):

Quote

December 17, 1965

Mr. Joe J. Christensen, Director
Institute of Religion
University of Utah
Salt Lake City, Utah 84112

Dear Brother Christensen:

Reference is made to your letter of December 7th in which you inquire what the teaching of the Church is relative to the possibility of progression from one particular glory to another after the resurrection.

The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point, though some have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others have taken an opposite view. As indicated, however, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

Sincerely your brother,

/s/ Joseph L. Anderson
Secretary to the First Presidency

There is another letter in 1970 that I do not have the text of but which is mentioned in the quote below; the quote is a letter from Elder Maxwell when he was Commissioner of Church Education:

Quote

NEAL A. MAXWELL
COMMISSIONER

August 17, 1970

Brother Reed C. Durham, Jr.
Institue of Religion
274 University Street
Salt Lake City, Utah 84102

Dear Reed:

I tried to reach you by phone, but was not able to prior to your leaving for a well deserved vacation.

In reading the copies of the letters sent by the First Presidency with regard to progression from one kingdom to another, I believe there may be a typographical error in the one dated June 17, 1970. Doctrine and Covenants 76:112 clearly refers to those who inherit the telestial, not Celestial, glory. I checked this with Joseph Anderson and that is a typographical error.

Insofar as your question probably goes beyond that, my own reaction is fairly simple; the earlier communications of the Presidency indicate that some of the brethren have held post-resurrection progress a possibility, while others have taken an opposite view, and that the newly-cited reference (Doctrine and Covenants 76:112) simply indicates what must be one boundary line, namely, that those who inherit the telestial glory cannot come "worlds without end" where God and Christ dwell. In other words, we know only so much about this matter beyond which anything is speculative, but that verse sounds pretty controling to me with regard to telestial beings.

I realize you and I are comfortable holding this kind of matter in abeyance until the Lord gives us more information, whereas some of our youth are anxious to nail things down in a definitive way that is simply not possible.

I am afraid what I have said is not particularly helpful to you, but I did want to get back to you as soon as possible. I appreciate the service you are rendering. Give my love to your colleagues.

Kindest personal regards,
/s/ Neal A. Maxwell

I wish we could all stay away from declaring progression between kingdoms impossible (sorry, Elder McConkie), and stick with Elder Maxwell's and the First Presidency's views. I myself have obviously gone beyond that in my study and posts here, but I do not claim my views to be the offical line and I will modify or abandon my views if necessary when we have the truth of the matter revealed to us in toto.

But I taste honey...!

Edited by stn9, 07 March 2005 - 12:01 PM.

[stn9]

yaanufs, be careful!!! You might shock some TBMs out of their spiritual boxes!

I love it! A non-member pointing out a possible misinterpretation of LDS doctrine commonly made by Latter-day Saints! Absolutely wonderful! I don't understand the plan fully (duh), but I love how it makes narrow thinking seem so obviously narrow indeed!

[yaanufs]

stn9, on Mar 7 2005, 12:05 PM, said:

yaanufs, be careful!!! You might shock some TBMs out of their spiritual boxes!

I love it! A non-member pointing out a possible misinterpretation of LDS doctrine commonly made by Latter-day Saints!

Err..... I'm a member.

Mission served, temple married member.

I'm just going through a 'phase' according to others.

[juliann]

It has never made sense to me that God would kill off all of his top spirits as children and leave the goof-offs to run the most important event in our eternal existence.

[stn9]

oops, sorry nufs! I missed the "and family" and saw the "LDS friends" part and assumed that meant.... In all honesty, I'm just too lazy to always read posts (even sometimes my own) as carefully as I should!

[juliann]

yaanufs, on Mar 7 2005, 11:57 AM, said:

LDS doctrine also discusses the curse of Cain and pretty clearly, but not openly, teaches that those who are born under this curse were less valient in the pre-earth life.

Now look at the world demographics.  Most children who die under the age of 8 are born into black families in Africa.  Very few children of 'elect' Utah LDS families die under the age of 8.

That has been put to rest for decades.   It is one of the few things that has been resoundingly rejected.   Even BY rejected it.  

Quote

Are we now claiming that those spirits born to black families in Africa are actually the real elect?  So many of them die before the age of acountability, they must be better than most of the kids born to LDS families.

I'm always a little taken back by anyone who is unaware that the "less valiant" folklore has been rejected....and I find your question rather disturbing in itself since the Church does not track members by skin color and I'm wondering why you would.

Your question rests on the belief that "the elect" all reside in SLC.  I don't know where you got that one,  either.   There is a statement that says God put his best people everywhere.   This idea that God only worries about Mormons is frightening.

[juliann]

stn9, on Mar 7 2005, 12:05 PM, said:

I love it! A non-member pointing out a possible misinterpretation of LDS doctrine commonly made by Latter-day Saints! Absolutely wonderful! I don't understand the plan fully (duh), but I love how it makes narrow thinking seem so obviously narrow indeed!

    The narrow thinking that I see is your stereotyped "TBMs".   This thread is populated by "TBMs"....all saying different things.   Be careful of that place called Rameumptom.