49 replies to this topic

[enummaelish]

After enjoying a very serious Gospel conversation with my wife last night, I felt a desire to share the following heretical thoughts with the FAIR family.  I�?¢â?¬â?¢d be interested in your views.  

Even though we do not profess these beliefs, I find that Elder Talmage�?¢â?¬â?¢s perspective on eternal increase is the only system that makes since to my mind.  From the first edition of the Articles of Faith, Elder Talmage declared:

�?¢â?¬�??It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God�?¢â?¬â?¢s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for.  But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the Kingdom of our God.  Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God�?¢â?¬â?¢s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase�?¢â?¬�?  James E. Talmage, �?¢â?¬�??Lecture XII, Religious Liberty and Toleration,�?¢â?¬�? pp. 420-421 as cited in The Essential James E. Talmage, ed. James P. Harris (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997): 69

Elder Talmage�?¢â?¬â?¢s original opinion is in harmony with my own thoughts.  Since all children who die before the age of accountability inherit celestial glory, the system presents the following issues:  If Adolf Hitler, the most wicked individual I can think of who does not qualify as a Son of Perdition, were to have died at age seven and a half, he would have become an exalted being.  Now, if one believes that God is in control of the fates and destines of humanity, this view presents major problems for the principle of agency.  

If God simply �?¢â?¬�??takes�?¢â?¬�? children who die before the age of accountability because they are too righteous for this world, then he violates the law of agency.  I cannot imagine deity pulling a child into the street in front of a speeding car, simply because the nonaccountable child is too worthy for this wicked world.  In fact, if that child is so incredibly advanced spiritually that he or she doesn�?¢â?¬â?¢t need to experience the trials of mortality, wouldn�?¢â?¬â?¢t it be better to leave these incredibly righteous spirits on earth to help the rest of us through our struggles in the telestial realm?  

Thus, if God does not violate the law of agency and intentionally take righteous little ones before they reach the age of accountability, then exaltation would become an issue of luck.  Hitler was not fortunate enough to die at age 7 and a half.  In fact, none of us reading this post were auspicious enough to meet with an accident of fate that would have allowed us to skip the trials of mortality.  In my mind, the only acceptable scenario is one of eternal advancement and growth.  

Really, I was blessed with an incredibly easy childhood.  My righteous parents took me to Church every week, held Family Home evening every Monday night, always paid a full-tithe, etc.  I have to wonder however, when I consider the choices made by friends and family members who were not as blessed as I, if I would not have made similar choices along the pathway of sin if I had experienced their history and received their genetic makeup. Of course I would have.  I have pondered these theological issues for years, and I believe that the only way the Plan of Salvation works is if all of God�?¢â?¬â?¢s children eventually inherit Celestial glory through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Accepting this view of the Plan does not negate the need for repentance and missionary work.  My reasons for living the Gospel in the present have nothing to do with a future reward.  The closer my life approaches the life of the Savior, the more joy I experience.  Hence, I want to become like him as quickly as possible.  

To enjoy the sacred Gift of the Holy Ghost is the greatest reward we can receive in mortality.  I believe that �?¢â?¬�??men are that they might have joy,�?¢â?¬�? and that joy is not possible without the gospel of Jesus Christ.  Thus, missionary work is essential.  Obedience is essential.  None of us should procrastinate the day of our repentance for sin results in suffering.  However, I believe that God loves his children so very much that he wants each of us to eventually become like him.  The quality of life God enjoys must be so wonderful that his greatest desire, even his work and his glory, is to provide a way for each of us to live the life he lives.  We are the offspring of celestial parents.  We are of the race or genos of the Gods.  Our Heavenly Father�?¢â?¬â?¢s plan is to exalt all of his children.  

Some of us take longer to get on board than others, but I believe that eventually everyone gets on board.  

�?¢â?¬�??The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory-celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another, remains to be considered.  In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here (D&C 76), in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial- that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser order of glory.  We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father�?¢â?¬â?¢s children along the lines of eternal progression.  Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture.  But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory- having before them the privilege also of eternal progress- have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement; and thus between them is an impassible gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to entitle them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom- they may arrive were these were, but never where they are.  But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligences there is granted eternal life-immortality for in the passing of even a few thousand of millions of years, even if progress be very slow- there will come a time when these intelligences- men and women of even the telestial glory- may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages�?¢â?¬�? B.H. Roberts, Outlines of Ecclesiastical History (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1979): 416-417.

Edited by enummaelish, 06 March 2005 - 07:25 AM.

[Nepheye]

Jesus only preached one kingdom, and that kingdom had citizens who had various degrees of glory, but I don't recall His ever saying there was more than one eternal kingdom.

What teaching of Jesus are you basing the 'Kingdoms'?

[BCSpace]

At the moment, my 'heretical' view that entropy prevents any significant advancement for those not in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.  

It takes energy from an outsystem source (the fullness of the priesthood in this case) to keep going and only those who have fully kept/fulfilled all priesthood covenants have the power to advance forever.

The rest might advance somewhat until there is no energy available to them.

There is nothing wrong with enummaelish's theory because it's all speculation.  But I see no real opportunity in the scriptures for those in the lower degrees to finally be able to make the covenants required.  Of course to assume that there never will be such opportunities is speculation also.

I suspect that these theories come from an internal desire to see some eternal principle realized.  In my case, it's justice, in enummaelish's, it's mercy.  Hence we are probably both wrong and the answer lies somewhere in between because the Atonement satisfies both.

Of course that raises another question.  Either you can advance forever, or you cannot.  How then can the answer lie somewhere in between?  

Perhaps some will take advantage of continuing advancement and some will not.  But then that has happened already before the resurrection so why not stop now?

And such questions go on and on and on......

Edited by BCSpace, 06 March 2005 - 09:10 AM.

[enummaelish]

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There is nothing wrong with enummaelish's theory because it's all speculation. But I see no real opportunity in the scriptures for those in the lower degrees to finally be able to make the covenants required. Of course to assume that there never will be such opportunities is speculation also.

Thanks BCSpace,  I always enjoy reading what you have to  say.

I recognize that my views are not canonical. In fact, Elder McConkie, whom I love and admire, specifically identified my perspective as one of the seven deadly heresies; see Bruce R. McConkie, �?¢â?¬�??The Seven Deadly Heresies,�?¢â?¬�? Brigham Young University Devotional and Fireside Address 1980 (Provo: Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1981): 78.  In a statement that was obviously written as a direct response to Elder Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith stated: �?¢â?¬�??It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory, to advance in time to the celestial glory?  The answer to this question is, No!  The scriptures are clear on this point.  Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says:  �?¢â?¬�??And they shall be servants of the Most high; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end�?¢â?¬â?¢ (D&C 76:112). Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is �?¢â?¬�??worlds without end,�?¢â?¬â?¢ yet in time they will get where Go was, but he will have gone on to other heights.  This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in the celestial kingdom�?¢â?¬�?  Doctrines of Salvation 2:31.  

However, I do not find the view of eternal progression illogical.  I find illogical the view of simply exalting a child who meets with an accident prior to the age of accountability when that child could have committed the atrocities of an Adolf Hitler.  One cannot argue that God simply knows where the deceased child would have eventually ended up and therefore places the individual in his or her appropriate sphere.  If God could overstep the law of agency why wouldn�?¢â?¬â?¢t he simply save a lot of time, anguish, and confusion by employing the same means of judgment for all his children.  To the contrary, I believe eternal progression must be accounted for in order for the Plan to be logical.

The major argument raised against eternal progression is the revelation concerning the nature of resurrected bodies.  �?¢â?¬�??The question is often asked , �?¢â?¬�??Throughout the endless expanses of eternity will there eventually be advancement from degree to degree?�?¢â?¬â?¢  That is, can those whose glory is telestial progress to a terrestrial order, while those of a terrestrial order become celestial?  Though conflicting opinions have been given by men in positions of authority, the question is answered, in the judgment of the writers, by the very nature of the resurrection itself.  If the resurrection is the inseparable union of body and spirit (Alma 11:45; D&C 138:17), then that which is telestial cannot be changed so that it could endure or abide a terrestrial law, �?¢â?¬�??worlds without end,�?¢â?¬â?¢ and that which is terrestrial for the same reason could not become celestial�?¢â?¬�? Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig J. Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2000): 539.  This is the standard line of reasoning offered by opponents of progression from kingdom to kingdom.

However, major transformations do occur in resurrected bodies:  �?¢â?¬�??It was revealed from God, the fountain of truth, through Joseph Smith the prophet, in this dispensation, that in the resurrection of the dead the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down; then it will begin to develop.  From the day of resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female�?¢â?¬�? Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1975): 24.  Even Joseph Fielding Smith taught, �?¢â?¬�??When a baby dies, it goes back into the spirit world, and the spirit assumes its natural form as an adult, for we were all adults before we were born.  When a child is raised in the resurrection, the spirit will enter the body and the body will be the same size as it was when the child died.  It will grow after the resurrection to full maturity to conform to the size of the spirit�?¢â?¬�?  Doctrines of Salvation 2:56.  

In his teachings, Joseph F. Smith clearly professed that all bodies, not just children�?¢â?¬â?¢s, experience major transformations following the resurrection: �?¢â?¬�??We will meet the same identical being that we associated with here in the flesh�?¢â?¬�?¦ the same person we knew and were associated with in our mortal existence, even to the wounds of the flesh.  Not that a person will always be marred by scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course, in their proper time, according to the merciful providence of God�?¢â?¬�? Gospel Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1975): 23.

If resurrected bodies experience major transformations, then one cannot argue that a telestial body could never change to a terrestrial body or a terrestrial body to a celestial body based upon the fact that the resurrection is the inseparable union of body and spirit.  Resurrected bodies clearly transform.  In fact the idea of a static, motionless existence not only violates every law of science, but also every sacred truth encompassed in the Gospel system.  

Hence, there is no end, nor beginning, improvement and progression have one eternal round. I�?¢â?¬â?¢m really not trying to convince anyone of my view for two essential reasons.  (1) I do not have authority to declare revealed truth concerning the Plan of Salvation, and (2) My line of reasoning could be flawed.   I just have a hard time understanding the Plan of Salvation in any other way.

Edited by enummaelish, 06 March 2005 - 09:27 AM.

[calmoriah]

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In my case, it's justice, in enummaelish's, it's mercy. Hence we are probably both wrong and the answer lies somewhere in between because the Atonement satisfies both.

Since God's Mercy and Justice are both infinite as is the Atonement, it is more likely not something in between, but that somehow contains the everything, including the absolutes of both.  Two apparently contradictory infinites are really just manifestations of the same infinite that is God.

My personal rationale is that the kingdoms represent different actual paths, rather than different rungs on the same ladder.  Progress between the kingdoms is not appropriate because the needs of the inhabitants of one kingdom are not the same as the others.  At the 'ultimate end' (this is a 'nonsense' term as there is no end to eternal progression) the distinctions between may blur and only really may end up being found by understanding the history of the individual.

Certain paths are more desirable than others because of the experiences that can be engaged in and others that can be avoided, but the paths all lead to God (I think my stance is closer to E's than BC's because of this 'end' view).

Edited by calmoriah, 06 March 2005 - 10:27 AM.

[calmoriah]

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In fact, none of us reading this post were auspicious enough to meet with an accident of fate that would have allowed us to skip the trials of mortality.

Do you really see death before accountability as something "auspicious"?

I am assuming from your other comments that you do not, that it is just the logical argument that makes the claim.

I figure that we wouldn't have been shouting for joy in recognition of the Plan of Salvation if an innocent mortal life was preferable to an accountable one.  We have to learn the lessons taught in mortality at some time.  Some make the claim that these children were proved already in the preexistence, but then what can be the rationale for mortality at all as something necessary beyond a physical body?

I see the learning of mortality occuring for the innocents in the next life if not somehow vicariously (through the Atonement).

[enummaelish]

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Do you really see death before accountability as something "auspicious"

That is actually the point that I�?¢â?¬â?¢m trying to make.  Life is wonderful and we shouted for joy at the prospect.  However, if a full mortal life meant that never, worlds without end, could you ever return to the presence of God, it would be preferable to die before the age of accountability.  Why wouldn�?¢â?¬â?¢t a loving Father in Heaven simply take us all before we arrived at that age?  I cannot believe that God violated the law of agency by arranging the deaths of all of those who died before the age of accountability.  And if one agrees with my perspective, than surely Adolf Hitler or any other telestial bound soul, was really, really, unfortunate to make it to age eight.  You see, it makes no sense without the possibility for eternal progression.  

Elder McConkie  professed:

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�?¢â?¬�??Millions of children, from Adamic times to our day, have died before they arrived at the age of accountability, and, because they were alive in Christ and had never died spiritually, they shall have eternal life.�??�?  It will come to them through the atonement of Christ.�??�?  They never were called upon to undergo and overcome the trials and temptations that almost overpower us.�??�?  Billions of spirits will come to earth during the Millennium, when Satan is bound, when there is peace on earth, when there is no sorrow because there is no death, when they will not be confronted with the evil and carnality that face us.�??�?  They will grow up without sin unto salvation.�??�?  Thus saith the holy word.�??�?  Knowing this, we are obliged to conclude that a millennial inheritance is the kind and type of mortal life that billions of spirits are entitled to receive.�??�?  Whatever the Lord does is right whether we understand his purpose or not.�?¢â?¬�?�??�?  Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1982): 661.

Thus, a majority of God�?¢â?¬â?¢s children automatically inherit eternal life through Christ, Jesus; all of these billions upon billions upon billions of souls who were never tested to the degree of someone who is raised in the worst imaginable environment, with a genetic and environmental predisposition to break the commandments of God.  Surely the Atonement allows for these individuals who were not lucky enough to die before the age of accountability.

I know its heresy, but the only way it makes sense to me is in accordance with the following sentiments:

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�?¢â?¬�??In conversing upon various principles President Young thought none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial & translated into the presence of God but those who would be Crowned as Gods & able to endure the fulness of the Presence of God ex[cept?] they might be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. Yet He thought they would eventually have the privilege of  proveing themselves worthy & advanceing to a Celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress�?¢â?¬�? Wilford Woodruff's Journal, vol. 4, p.333-334.

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"I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can; and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come�?¢â?¬�? J. Reuben Clark Jr., Church News, week ending 23 April 1960, p. 3.

Edited by enummaelish, 06 March 2005 - 11:25 AM.

[Tchild2]

I enjoyed your "heretical" views, and as an active LDS member, I too pondered the dilemna and contradiction of free agency VS those who die before the age of accountability and get the free pass to the CK.  The Millennial reign is another area that literally billions of humans will get a free ride to exaltation without a world that offers sin and temptation.

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Some of us take longer to get on board than others, but I believe that eventually everyone gets on board.

This is my view also, and it intuitively resonates with me more than a fixated celestial position and a punishing heavenly father.

[calmoriah]

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Whatever the Lord does is right whether we understand his purpose or not.

Well, I think that God intends us to understand his purpose, so I am more swayed by yours and Roberts, et. al's reasoning than Br. McConkie's.

Have you looked at the history of the eternal progression (the 'through all' and the 'only within') doctrine from the early church till now?  From your quotes, it would seem that the 'heresy' was strong in the past.  Makes me wonder about the shift.  I think there is a shift back to the earlier form or at least away from the "only within" position in that I haven't heard it preached much lately, besides Br. McConkie.

I am not much into dividing things up anyway as it seems to be more of an artifact of man's need to catagorize the world than reality (for example, it's easy to speak of the 'id, ego, and superego' when discussing inner reality but that doesn't mean we should believe they actually exist and indeed we can cause great harm if we forget that they don't).

I see the Kingdoms as levels of awareness of the same reality.  Each person's awareness will vary dependent on their personal characteristics and experience including their oneness with God.

===

It seems to me that the one common factor in those that promote the "only within" even to the point of claiming the other is a heresy, is a stated fear that people will put off their repentance until later--a decidedly negative view of the natural man to my mind.

Reminds me of the D&C 19 thread discussion I and others had with Dan Vogel.  Vogel focused on the use of the misunderstanding of "eternal" in terms of punishment as a flog for righteous behaviour (as evidence of JS's rationalization for 'pious fraud').    Looked at another way, 19 is all about the beauty of the Atonement and the Grace of God, much more 'carroty' to my view than stick.  

One view's filter is fear, the other trust.

The more I study the scriptures, the more I'm turning to the trust view.

[gaucho]

Consider the following quotes:

President Joseph Fielding Smith once told me that we must assume that the Lord knows and arranges beforehand who shall be taken in infancy and who shall remain on earth to undergo whatever tests are needed in their cases. This accords with Joseph Smith's statement: "The Lord takes many away, even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth." (Teachings, pp. 196-97.) It is implicit in the whole scheme of things that those of us who have arrived at the years of accountability need the tests and trials to which we are subject and that our problem is to overcome the world and attain that spotless and pure state which little children already possess.


Will children ever be tested?

Absolutely not! Any idea that they will be tested in paradise or during the millennium or after the millennium is pure fantasy. Why would a resurrected being, who has already come forth from the grave with a celestial body and whose salvation is guaranteed, be tested? Would the Lord test someone who cannot fail the test and whose exaltation is guaranteed? For that matter, all those billions of people who will be born during the millennium, when Satan is bound, "shall grow up without sin unto salvation" (D&C 45:58) and therefore will not be tested. "Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56-57.) Such is the emphatic language of President Joseph Fielding Smith.

Also, on another meesage board, I started a thread called, " Did we blow it in the pre existence?" You can read it here:

http://www.bordeglob...showtopic=11896

[calmoriah]

There is a difference between being tested and learning.

What is the purpose of the 'test'?

I think it is a learning tool--life as a constant chapter review test, not the final that gives you a pass or fail.

According to JS, even the most spiritually advanced in this life have a lot more to learn so surely the innocents will be learning in the next life as well.  I quoted him awhile back about that ladder with way more rungs than we know about, I'll dig it out if you want me to.

[enummaelish]

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Have you looked at the history of the eternal progression (the 'through all' and the 'only within') doctrine from the early church till now? From your quotes, it would seem that the 'heresy' was strong in the past. Makes me wonder about the shift. I think there is a shift back to the earlier form or at least away from the "only within" position in that I haven't heard it preached much lately, besides Br. McConkie.

I�?¢â?¬â?¢m not sure when the idea first entered LDS theology that one could never progress between the kingdoms, but I believe that you are correct in suggesting that the main concern seems to be a fear of procrastination.  Joseph Fielding Smith�?¢â?¬â?¢s statement that this perspective �?¢â?¬�??creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in the celestial kingdom�?¢â?¬�? is really quite telling.  

Spencer W. Kimball wrote similarly, �?¢â?¬�??After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory.  This is eternal!  That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right�?¢â?¬�? Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50.  

Even if my perspective on eternal progression is correct, if one were to adopt a procrastination view, one would not only suffer needlessly in mortality, but also face the demands of justice in the next realm.  On this issue, I appreciated your addition to the thread concerning D&C 19.  

I love and support all of the Brethren, past and present, and I am certainly not trying to pit one against the other.   I just happen to think that eternal progression must exist for all God�?¢â?¬â?¢s children. �?¢â?¬�??Whatever changes may arise, whatever worlds may be made or pass away, our identity will always remain the same; and we will continue on improving, advancing and increasing in wisdom, intelligence, power and dominion, worlds without end�?¢â?¬�?  Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, April 1901, 2.

[Helorum]

enummaelish,

It seems that you have considered a good deal of relevant material on this topic but perhaps you haven't considered ALL the relevant documents yet.

I recommend Matthew B. Brown's book The Plan of Salvation since it contains material on the resurrection of children that may change your view on 'eternal progression.' Look very carefully at the footnotes - they will show you that Joseph Smith changed his mind on the topic of resurrected children. Also notice the quotation on how fast resurrected children will be changed to their adult form.

I agree with Elder McConkie (and other Church leaders) that the 'kingdom-hopping' theory is heretical (in a spirtually deadly sort of a way).

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I�?¢â?¬â?¢m not sure when the idea first entered LDS theology that one could never progress between the kingdoms

D&C 76:112 (16 February 1832).

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�?¢â?¬�??Whatever changes may arise, whatever worlds may be made or pass away, our identity will always remain the same; and we will continue on improving, advancing and increasing in wisdom, intelligence, power and dominion, worlds without end�?¢â?¬�? Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, April 1901, 2.

In context - the only people who will receive "power and dominion" are king and priests / queens and priestesses (i.e., those who qualify for exaltation).

As far as the Brigham Young and J. Reuben Clark quotations are concerned, the phrases "He thought" and "It is my belief" make it perfectly clear that these men were merely speculating, not teaching official Church doctrine.

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I find illogical the view of simply exalting a child who meets with an accident prior to the age of accountability when that child could have committed the atrocities of an Adolf Hitler.

I agree. Please see the relevant material in Brother Brown's book on whether or not children will automatically get exalted.

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I believe eternal progression must be accounted for in order for the Plan to be logical.

I agree. But AGENCY is the bedrock foundation of the Plan of Salvation. In an unpublished revelation to John Taylor the Lord clearly states that He will NEVER violate anyone's agency. Thus, if a child dies for whatever reason (planned or not planned) before reaching the age of accountability they cannot be forced into exaltation against their will. There are some mortals who qualify for exaltation who may actually choose not to be - their agency cannot be violated.

[stn9]

D&C 76:112 is speaking solely of the Telestial kingdom; I can see no justification for applying it to any other.

And while we are on the topic, that verse merely states that a being in the telestial kingdom can never�?¢â?¬â?which I understand "worlds without end" to mean�?¢â?¬â?go to the Celestial kingdom�?¢â?¬â?which I understand "where God and Christ dwell" to mean; to take it in a strict sense, it merely states an eternal principle: those of the Telestial kingdom cannot go to the Celestial kingdom; however, it does not say that those of the Telestial kingdom cannot go to the Terrestrial kingdom; nor does it speak of those in the Terrestrial kingdom.

Having said that, I am not advocating the view that one can progress out of the Telestial kingdom, though I wonder if the language is that precise in D&C 76 for a reason.

But, on the idea of progression, I would read Alma 12:9-11 and make that my guiding principle: ultimately there are only two outcomes. That is a scripturally-sound principle.

If I were pressed to state my own current view I would say there is and there is not progression between kingdoms�?¢â?¬â?progression from the Terrestrial, but not from the Telestial. This accomodates both Alma 12 and D&C 76 very nicely, as well as matches a little known teaching of Hyrum Smith and D&C 130:18-19.

This view to me also harmonies the agency question: ultimately our kingdom will be or is determined by the law which we are willing to receive and live, and this agency does not end with the resurrection.

A related issue is whether as Elder McConkie declared all who are on the right path at death will assuuredly reach the Celestial kingdom; he unqualifiedly said they would (that's my understanding of his words), but I think you can still choose to not accept certain laws�?¢â?¬â?hence the degrees of glory even within the degrees of glory. For instance, what if William law had died in early 1842 instead of becoming alienated from the Prophet during the rest of that year and the following, 1843, and ultimately rejecting him and leading events that brought about the martyrdom in 1844? Had he died in 1842 would he then have automatically accepted the teachings he did reject in 1844? Or would the same character flaw(s) have existed in him?

I think that can be said of anyone at any time: you cannot be assured of exaltation unless you live worthy of it from moment to moment; there is no relaxing of the standard, and the standard always will include righteous use of agency. Hence even those who have their calling and electionmade sure are warned to watch themselves: "Take heed both before and after obtaining the more sure word of Prophecy" (Joseph Smith, 21 May 1843; published inEhat & Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith, p.208).

[stn9]

Helorum,

I would be grateful if you could post or email the footnotes (and context) you referred to in which Joseph Smith views on children can be seen to change. I have never heard this claim before (though I have heard differing interpretations on the record we have of his views) and I will not likely have time anytime soon to obtain a copy of Matthew Brown's book.

[calmoriah]

Perhaps it would help to look at exactly how progress occurs.

I think we've been addressing it as opportunities available and think that in an infinite eternity with an infinitely just and merciful God, all opportunities would be available for all people.

But simply because opportunity exists, doesn't mean people take it.

There is progress of knowledge and skill (something that seems should continue to increase over an infinite period of time), but also progress of character (for want of a better term).  While I don't see it as possible that someone could eternally not get some principle of mathematics unless they were profoundly limited (and I am assuming here that we are not assuming such determined outcomes), on the other hand I can envision someone not getting the principle of "Thy will, not mine" eternally.

Character progress in this life comes through a combination of opposition and desire.  The humbling that comes through opposition for some may result in despair in others.  Changing despair to humility is not a simple case of just learning more facts or more skill.  It is not a case of just given enough time, someone will 'get it'.  The desire must be present along with the opposition for change to take place.

The scriptures speak of God not always striving with us.  Sounds like opposition, at least in the intense amount that is present in mortal life, may not be present in the next stage.  If so, change must come to pass by pure desire.....but how is that desire present?  I don't think it is the case that given enough time, a person will simply experience it as a matter of probability.

I don't see God as limiting people's opportunities to progress eternally speaking ('what father when asked for bread, gives a stone?'), but individuals themselves may do so on their own because they've already refused to place themselves in a position where they will 'get' it and it could be an usurption of their free agency for God to continually place them in positions of opposition until they do.

Perhaps it is the description of the "highest" degree that bugs us.  If there is no limit to progress within the kingdoms, then perhaps it would be better to describe as simply a different degree.  It is not unlikely to my mind that even given eternity, there are still going to be people who would not desire the experience of children and the "power and dominions" referred to by H above.

Edited by calmoriah, 06 March 2005 - 04:58 PM.

[enummaelish]

Hello Helorum:

Quote

I recommend Matthew B. Brown's book The Plan of Salvation since it contains material on the resurrection of children that may change your view on 'eternal progression.' Look very carefully at the footnotes - they will show you that Joseph Smith changed his mind on the topic of resurrected children. Also notice the quotation on how fast resurrected children will be changed to their adult form.

Matthew Brown�?¢â?¬â?¢s appendix one covers the issue of �?¢â?¬�??The Salvation of Children.�?¢â?¬�?   Footnote 14 covers the Prophet Joseph�?¢â?¬â?¢s view concerning the exaltation of the children who die before the age of accountability.   Brown presents several recollections recorded in the late 1800�?¢â?¬â?¢s of those who claimed to have heard Joseph Smith modify his view that little children would forever remain infants in the eternities.  Even though it is a very interesting topic, and I genuinely enjoy Matthew Brown�?¢â?¬â?¢s publication, it really does not directly relate to my views on eternal progression.

Edited by enummaelish, 06 March 2005 - 05:52 PM.

[Moxy]

Quote

Will children ever be tested?

Absolutely not! Any idea that they will be tested in paradise or during the millennium or after the millennium is pure fantasy. Why would a resurrected being, who has already come forth from the grave with a celestial body and whose salvation is guaranteed, be tested? Would the Lord test someone who cannot fail the test and whose exaltation is guaranteed? For that matter, all those billions of people who will be born during the millennium, when Satan is bound, "shall grow up without sin unto salvation" (D&C 45:58) and therefore will not be tested. "Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56-57.) Such is the emphatic language of President Joseph Fielding Smith.

Also, on another meesage board, I started a thread called, " Did we blow it in the pre existence?" You can read it here:

This is WRONG!!!!  Ofcourse everyone will need to tested and to learn.  That is the ONLY purpose of this and other lives to learn and progress.  You cannot expect someone to build a car if  they  dont even know what  a car is. Duh!!!
To think that children will somehow inherient divine knowledge AND divine EXPERIENCE is ludiroucous.

Edited by Moxy, 06 March 2005 - 05:27 PM.

[Markk]

Hi David,

I read your first post and that was all, so excuse me if this has been brougt up.

While I don't hold to eternal progression or that every one born on this earth is Gods Child, from a LDS prespective isn't your view  mor e of less Lucifers plan?

Mark
John 1:12

[enummaelish]

Quote

While I don't hold to eternal progression or that every one born on this earth is Gods Child, from a LDS prespective isn't your view mor e of less Lucifers plan?

No.  Agency is an absolute necessity in my view.  In fact, one of the reasons I adhere to this perspective is that in it, God does not violate the law of agency by taking righteous spirits before they reach the age of accountability.  I believe every individual will be held accountable for the decisions made in his or her life.