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Bernard Gui

A Coming Out Party in Provo

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Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

 

 

 

No.

Nice try.

Thanks for dangling the bait.  

Oops, I think you dangled first. ;)

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44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think that is a worthy goal . 

When you identify as someone who has been maligned in the church, it’s important internally for a person to say to themselves “I am THIS and still I am a worthy child of God, just like the rest of you are. “. Once the maligning is non existent, the qualifier will be moot. 

As far as the church adjusting for popularity... perhaps it seems that way.  But perhaps like the Priesthood issue, God had to wait for the people to catch up. 

Its just sad so many had to get hurt along the way.  

Transcending societal labels to establish Zion certainly requires an attitude that invites maligners and “malignees” to first identify as children of God. This is the direction I see on the Church’s resources on the subject. So I’m thinking the speaker and the congratulators (and any critics in the audience) are more a sign of the times than agents of change in adopting that goal. I think they could go home and do better than publicly virtue-signal under pressure of popularity and stigma.

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13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:
8 hours ago, Calm said:

Sorry. Missed that.

Most people don't watch the news section so it can be missed. I never know for sure which page to start some threads on because even if it is a news item, if I put it in the news many people won't see it and so someone will start another new thread in the General Discussions for the same thing. Maybe we should just get rid of the News section?

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

 I think they could go home and do better than publicly virtue-signal under pressure of popularity and stigma.

I doubt that's why this young man received the acceptance and applause.  IMO, that is reflective of each person's feelings and beliefs who were in the audience.  I'd imagine that all did not applaud.....which was also reflective of their beliefs and feelings. 

But it's wonderful to hear that BYU administrators approved of his speech ahead of time.

Edited by ALarson
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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I’ve read that and it’s hard to believe this took place at BYU.  But it surely shows how times are changing (just as Bernard stated in the OP).  That was just 40 years ago so let’s hope there’s as much change (in the same direction of acceptance) over the next 40 years!

Bottom up!

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Oops, I think you dangled first. ;)

No, I didn't.  By sad experience, I have learned that merely expressing the faithful/orthodox view on certain topics here elicits howls of protest from those who feel themselves persecuted at the mere expression.  That, then, elicits a typical reaction from the powers-that-be.  I'd rather not go there.  Thanks.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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My first reaction to this was; well that's a fine and dandy, but what does the statement, "I am a proud gay Son of God" mean, as a member of the church, and more particularly, a student at BYU

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15 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I doubt that's why this young man received the acceptance and applause.  IMO, that is reflective of each person's feelings and beliefs who were in the audience.  I'd imagine that all did not applaud.....which was also reflective of their beliefs and feelings. 

But it's wonderful to hear that BYU administrators approved of his speech ahead of time.

Who knows? I’m addressing the content and tenor of the posts I'm involved with in this thread, not what actually took place at the ceremony. I would like to hear what his full message was about. BYU administrators seem to approve of all speeches ahead of time, right? Hmmm... that sounds a bit honorcodesque... Let's protest it!

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12 minutes ago, Senator said:

My first reaction to this was; well that's a fine and dandy, but what does the statement, "I am a proud gay Son of God" mean, as a member of the church, and more particularly, a student at BYU

It confessed that they are a sinner. Not because of the gay part because they may not have acted on it but because pride is bad. :vader:

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Who knows? I’m addressing the content and tenor of the posts I'm involved with in this thread, not what actually took place at the ceremony. I would like to hear what his full message was about. BYU administrators seem to approve of all speeches ahead of time, right? Hmmm... that sounds a bit honorcodesque... Let's protest it!

LOL

I'd love to read the rest of his talk as well.  But what we are discussing on this thread is the applause he received when he stated: 

Quote

"It was in these quiet moments of pain and confusion that I felt another triumph, that of coming to terms, not with who I thought I should be, but who the Lord has made me," Easton said. "As such, I stand before my family, friends and graduating class today to say that I am proud to be a gay son of God."

And it's also great to read this from him:

Quote

Coming out, Easton said to applause, was "a phenomenal feeling, and it is a victory for me in and of itself."

 

Edited by ALarson

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Time, place and context.  Some things are appropriate to discuss at certain times.  Others are appropriate in certain places.  And some are appropriate only in certain contexts.

Toddlers are capable of learning this.  Takes a while, but they get it, most of them, by the time they're four.

I agree. I'm not sure about this case, where (like in the 90s, every other week the SNL host -- and on other programming too -- would get standing ovations just by saying how many days sober s/he was) coming out in a large public venue is the popular thing to do. Thus, for argument's sake, it may well have been appropriate for the time, place and context. But the problem with fads and faddish acts and behavior is that they do not contribute to positive, lasting change and often don't get to the heart of the issue.

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15 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well neither one of us know exactly what part of the audience cheered when he announced that he was gay.  So maybe it is more than just the next generation that feels this is something to cheer about.  You are in a bit of denial if you think this is not a significant event.  This story was picked up by not only virtually every major news outlet in the country, but also over seas including the BBC.  Obviously the rest of the world does not view the Church through the same nothing to see here view that you seem to have.

What is clear is that you have no idea what it must be like being a member of the church and realizing that you are gay.  Believe me, it is terrifying.  The implications are HUGE.  How their family and friends will react is a crap shoot. Will they never know love?  Will they ever be able to kiss someone, wrap my arms around them and tell them I love them?  Will they ever marry?  Have a family? Can they ever mention their partner and their life together around their family without someone chastising them for throwing their gayness in their face?  Will everything they do be scrutinized through a lense of it is ok you are gay but never discuss it or do anything to remind us you are gay.  

When I first came out, one of the things that I did was ride my bike from San Francisco to Los Angeles to raise money for the San Francisco Aids Foundation.  I raised $5,000.  It took a week and peddling 585 miles.  I was quite proud of that accomplishment.   They gave us a commemorative tee shirts to honor the riders and in raising over 2 million dollars.  I made the mistake of wearing that tee shirt to a family event. The shirt said LIFECYCLE on it.  But on the sleeve was a small logo for the SF Aids foundation.  I was asked to take the tee shirt off. My brother gave me one of his to wear and that was the last event my family every invited me to for the next 13 years.  Somehow, they thought I was throwing my "lifestyle" in their face.  Talk about drama.

Yeah times have changed somewhat, FOR SOME, but not every gay kid.   And there are always going to be those member that just the mentioning that you are gay will roll their eyes and judge if that is something that should be mentioned.  Now if the kid had thanked his loving wife for her support thorugh college, I doubt you would have been rolling your eyes that he had to bring up the fact that he was straight.  This is the double standard we hear from some members all the time.  Keep your orientation to yourself unless you want to talk about heterosexual relations.  Then by all means mention your wife and her support.  We hear that kind of comment in Conference all the time.  Should all the gay members be rolling their eyes at all the drama?

You have. no idea what it is like to hold such a huge secret and be terrified if anyone found out what you were hiding.  There was a reason why this valedictorian included that in his speech.  There is a reason why the dean approved his speech.  And there is a reason why every major news outlet picked up this story.  

My dear friend, I think this medium is often too ineffective to really communicate well on these types of serious topics. I am not questioning the significance of an individual at BYU, a valedictorian, standing up and tell the graduation audience that he is gay. I think it is significant on many levels. 

My point was that this young man was being validated all along the way from family, friends, professors, university administration, and yet with all of that validation he 1) still felt the need for more validation, 2) still felt insecure of telling others what is sexual preference was.

The Gay Agenda has this massive bullhorn and has had for the last almost 20 years. Does a lot of society still reject homosexuality? Yes. Does the majority of world religions still reject homosexuality? Yes Does the majority of the world accept another individual's right to have whatever sexual preference they choose? Yes....well almost, societies still hold some things to be sexually unacceptable choices. 

In this world, people are rejected for a host of things, countless numbers of things. Having a sexual preference outside the norm is just one of them. The dealing with the "secret" is a personal challenge; I don't think it is a challenge at all for society. You're gay, okay, join the crowd that has been in every television show, every movie, every song, it is a non-stop assault on the senses of humanity. When was the last time you heard about a gay cake maker whose store was shut down? You are right - it doesn't happen. Something to think about.

I think you are correct that when an individual says, "I would like to thank my wife or husband for..." We don't think twice about it. However, when someone says, "I am homosexual and I have a spouse and he loves me completely and I thank him for supporting me on this journey in a straight world..." Yeah, doesn't really fly for a lot of people.

I am not sure I have ever heard a valedictorian thank their spouse before. I know I have never heard a valedictorian feel the need to tell me their sexual preference. I don't think this is a gay or straight issue, it is just the need in today's society to freely talk about all things sexaul at any time. There is no sense of decency, no boundaries for when things are appropriate. 

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47 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well neither one of us know exactly what part of the audience cheered when he announced that he was gay.  So maybe it is more than just the next generation that feels this is something to cheer about.  You are in a bit of denial if you think this is not a significant event.  This story was picked up by not only virtually every major news outlet in the country, but also over seas including the BBC.  Obviously the rest of the world does not view the Church through the same nothing to see here view that you seem to have.

What is clear is that you have no idea what it must be like being a member of the church and realizing that you are gay.  Believe me, it is terrifying.  The implications are HUGE.  How their family and friends will react is a crap shoot. Will they never know love?  Will they ever be able to kiss someone, wrap my arms around them and tell them I love them?  Will they ever marry?  Have a family? Can they ever mention their partner and their life together around their family without someone chastising them for throwing their gayness in their face?  Will everything they do be scrutinized through a lense of it is ok you are gay but never discuss it or do anything to remind us you are gay.  

When I first came out, one of the things that I did was ride my bike from San Francisco to Los Angeles to raise money for the San Francisco Aids Foundation.  I raised $5,000.  It took a week and peddling 585 miles.  I was quite proud of that accomplishment.   They gave us a commemorative tee shirts to honor the riders and in raising over 2 million dollars.  I made the mistake of wearing that tee shirt to a family event. The shirt said LIFECYCLE on it.  But on the sleeve was a small logo for the SF Aids foundation.  I was asked to take the tee shirt off. My brother gave me one of his to wear and that was the last event my family every invited me to for the next 13 years.  Somehow, they thought I was throwing my "lifestyle" in their face.  Talk about drama.

Yeah times have changed somewhat, FOR SOME, but not every gay kid.   And there are always going to be those member that just the mentioning that you are gay will roll their eyes and judge if that is something that should be mentioned.  Now if the kid had thanked his loving wife for her support thorugh college, I doubt you would have been rolling your eyes that he had to bring up the fact that he was straight.  This is the double standard we hear from some members all the time.  Keep your orientation to yourself unless you want to talk about heterosexual relations.  Then by all means mention your wife and her support.  We hear that kind of comment in Conference all the time.  Should all the gay members be rolling their eyes at all the drama?

You have. no idea what it is like to hold such a huge secret and be terrified if anyone found out what you were hiding.  There was a reason why this valedictorian included that in his speech.  There is a reason why the dean approved his speech.  And there is a reason why every major news outlet picked up this story.  

Running out of posts but need to do this, hugs! 🤗 That's the first I'd heard about your earning money for the SF Aids Foundation and T-shirt story in your youth! You rock of course, glad your with us! 😘

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41 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I agree. I'm not sure about this case, where (like in the 90s, every other week the SNL host -- and on other programming too -- would get standing ovations just by saying how many days sober s/he was) coming out in a large public venue is the popular thing to do. Thus, for argument's sake, it may well have been appropriate for the time, place and context. But the problem with fads and faddish acts and behavior is that they do not contribute to positive, lasting change and often don't get to the heart of the issue.

They tend to invite virtue-signalling from crowds programmed to signal by their whistles and applause, notwithstanding this kid's personal stuff is quite irrelevant and inappropriate to the event.  Do we really want our grandkids being compelled to participate in such things?

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28 minutes ago, alter idem said:

therefore there is no place for married homosexuals to attend BYU, hence, no need to worry about housing

I’m talking about unmarried housing. 

As a single cis woman I can’t live in an apartment with cis men I assume because if I’m potentially attracted to them or they to me then there is privacy needs and also need to prevent $ex. 

As controlling as BYU is, how is homosexuality factored in ten years from now when students are to be housed in a way that doesn’t encourage fraternizing ? 

This is meant as a curious question, not a challenge. 

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10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

They tend to invite virtue-signalling from crowds programmed to signal by their whistles and applause, notwithstanding this kid's personal stuff is quite irrelevant and inappropriate to the event.  Do we really want our grandkids being compelled to participate in such things?

Well we talk about sexuality even “over the pulpit”constantly . 

I think more about $ex at church than I do any other day of the week😜

 

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Bottom up!

Umm, did you......... never mind.

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47 minutes ago, USU78 said:

They tend to invite virtue-signalling from crowds programmed to signal by their whistles and applause, notwithstanding this kid's personal stuff is quite irrelevant and inappropriate to the event.  Do we really want our grandkids being compelled to participate in such things?

"Popular" typically has is its own standard for "propriety."

Building Zion never was popular but it still takes a welcoming, invitational stance. Of course popular, secular themes and mores can filter into the academic (student and professor) body and the body of Christ since we are only human and very much the product of our times. We slowly creep out of this pit once we are called and gathered into something higher via covenant. So I think the ideal is to teach our children, grandchildren and the world at large to think for themselves, live spiritually, and never compel for social reasons but to first and foremost stand as a light for the Lord. Hopefully all involved in the event are open-mined enough to consider Elder Bednar's words as well, and interested enough to find out the Church's teachings on this issue. In a decade (or sooner) it will be something else, and this would be good practice for that.

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54 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well we talk about sexuality even “over the pulpit”constantly . 

I think more about $ex at church than I do any other day of the week😜

 

I don't think he was talking about sexuality so much as how he manages his sexuality within the covenants he has made, and balancing that with his changing social standing vis-a-vis changing societal attitudes about sexuality.

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55 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m talking about unmarried housing. 

As a single cis woman I can’t live in an apartment with cis men I assume because if I’m potentially attracted to them or they to me then there is privacy needs and also need to prevent $ex. 

As controlling as BYU is, how is homosexuality factored in ten years from now when students are to be housed in a way that doesn’t encourage fraternizing ? 

This is meant as a curious question, not a challenge. 

Sorry, I assumed you were referring to legally married homosexuals, because there are homosexual students who already live in BYU housing, so I'm not sure why something needs to be done in the future. These students are perfectly capable of 'fraternizing' with roommates of the same sex, if so inclined, but I assume the hope is that they will keep the standards they promised to live in signing the honor code, while at BYU. 

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1 minute ago, alter idem said:

Sorry, I assumed you were referring to legally married homosexuals, because there are homosexual students who already live in BYU housing, so I'm not sure why something needs to be done in the future. These students are perfectly capable of 'fraternizing' with roommates of the same sex, if so inclined, but I assume the hope is that they will keep the standards they promised to live in signing the honor code, while at BYU. 

MS does have a point though.  Heterosexual men and women are not allowed to live together and still be students at BYU, regardless of the fact that they have made promises and signed an honor code.  Would homosexual men and women be treated differently than heterosexual students if the school was aware of their sexual preferences?

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Sorry, I assumed you were referring to legally married homosexuals, because there are homosexual students who already live in BYU housing, so I'm not sure why something needs to be done in the future. These students are perfectly capable of 'fraternizing' with roommates of the same sex, if so inclined, but I assume the hope is that they will keep the standards they promised to live in signing the honor code, while at BYU. 

Of course.  I could live with boys and have no issues.  BYU would never ever allow that though.  I don’t think two homosexuals should be allowed to room together in an abstainance required setting than should a  cis male and female .  Maybe homosexual males will have to room with lesbians.  But what to do about bisexuals then? 

Up to this point though I’d say homosexuality has been don’t ask don’t tell at BYU ,  but if in 10 years it’s a non shame topic and everyone is out, won’t that force a policy for housing in a campus that is controlled for such things? 

Again I’m curious how this will work. 

Edited by MustardSeed

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