Holding onto beliefs

[changed]

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Changed, I' m genuinely curious.  Are you asking for yourself?  or trying to influence?  

Asking for a friend  - Haha, no asking for myself.  I've read some stuff that ...well... I can't unread.  Everything is 180 from where it was now - reading scriptures, prayer, church - I go, I do, but it is all 180 from what it used to be.

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, changed said:

Not "give up", change.  ...

If I change my beliefs, then I give up the belief I have changed, don't I?  With due respect, it seems that this is nothing more than a semantic game: "Giving up beliefs" is bad, but "changing beliefs" is good.  

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

I believed the Dodgers were going to win the World Series that last two years, but I was wrong. Still, I wouldn't want to believe anything else because I am a fan of the Dodgers.

Matters of salvation, however, rise to a higher level than rooting for a sports team (though some might disagree). What if your erroneous belief puts you on a path that takes you away from God? What then? Would you still rather believe in something and be wrong?

My standing before God is a matter between God and me, your standing before God is a matter between God and you, and someone else's standing before God is a matter between God and him.  If he finds a path which bears good fruit in his life, which fills his soul and makes him happy, who am I to argue?  More power to him.

I have a hard time picturing, e.g., The Princess Bride's Vizzini as played by Wallace Shawn as God, who, when I meet him, will begin laughing uproariously, telling me, "You fool!  It was the Catholics!  The Catholics had it right!"  Or, for that matter, I have a hard time picturing any Catholics meeting him, whereupon he begins laughing uproariously and saying, "You fool!  It was the Latter-day Saints!  The Latter-day Saints had it right!"

If that happens, I'll simply say, "Well, I did the best I could to discern and to follow God's will, to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, to love my neighbor as myself, to serve others, to make life as good as I could make it for myself, for those I love, and for those around me for as long as my mortal life endured.  If that makes me a fool or if someone thinks I was wrong for doing so, so be it." 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, changed said:

In a discussion on the priesthood ban someone said:

"if we hold to what we truly believe to be true, and have faith that God will straighten things out if we are faithful, then...He will straighten things out. "

... if we hold to what we truly believe...

I do not think it is good to hold onto beliefs.  We are all misinformed, when we get new information we should let go of old beliefs, and follow where the new information leads, correct?

Example:  Let's say your church taught the earth was flat, or that the earth was the center of the universe, and you believed your church leaders and thought holding onto that belief was somehow showing faith in God.

Then - new information comes along, people are saying the earth is not flat afterall.... so.... do you

a) ignore what everyone is saying, and "hold onto your beliefs"

b) study it out using only church approved material, and rationalize how the church beliefs in a flat earth are correct

c) study it out using materials from multiple organizations, test it out yourself, and come to your own conclusion - then re-evaluate your beliefs.  (Keep some beliefs, get rid of others)

So... what beliefs have you discarded?  what beliefs would you have a hard time getting rid of?  What pieces of your faith do you hold onto, and what pieces are you willing to let go of?

I have discarded too many beliefs to mention. As for what i hold to, it is what Joseph Smith taught: "“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth.” I hold to the fundamental principles and to the appendages.

I think we should discern between new information and new truth, which is a spiritual gift to cultivate. And then go with the truth, of course. I have found the quest for charity to be the greatest help in this.

[changed]

9 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I have a hard time picturing, e.g., The Princess Bride's Vizzini as played by Wallace Shawn as God, who, when I meet him, will begin laughing uproariously, telling me, "You fool!  It was the Catholics!  The Catholics had it right!"  Or, for that matter, I have a hard time picturing any Catholics meeting him, whereupon he begins laughing uproariously and saying, "You fool!  It was the Latter-day Saints!  The Latter-day Saints had it right!"

 

 

Haha Kenngo, love the description.  So how do you answer these ones?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

[changed]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I have discarded too many beliefs to mention. As for what i hold to, it is what Joseph Smith taught: "“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth.” I hold to the fundamental principles and to the appendages.

I think we should discern between new information and new truth, which is a spiritual gift to cultivate. And then go with the truth, of course. I have found the quest for charity to be the greatest help in this.

A testimony of the Apostles and Prophets is exactly what I do not have right now - that is what started it all - someone called to authority abused the kids, and now I no longer trust those called to authority.  Thomas doubted, the apostles - they denied Christ, could not stay awake even one hour - forbid children from coming to Christ, betrayed Christ - continually had everything wrong.  I will no longer raise my hand to sustain those who abused my kids.

It is not supposed to be a testimony in any arm of flesh - I don't care if that arm of flesh is a "prophet".  It is supposed to just be a testimony in the the Savior, in God.

How does anyone come to know the Savior without apostles and prophets?  I guess it is what you hope for... I have been to Israel, have walked those dusty streets... there are some real, tangible, evidences over there.

 

... on another note, I'l be running around in Belize / Guatamala etc. this summer... any particular books I should read, or sites to see over there?  

Edited April 30, 2019 by changed

[Kenngo1969]

13 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Haha Kenngo, love the description.  So how do you answer these ones?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

Why are you talking about my standing before God, when, as I have already said, my standing before God is a matter between God and me and no one else?  We differ on certain fundamental things, but that doesn't make it my place to ask you to justify your standing before God on a public message board, so why do you think it's your place to ask me to justify my standing before God on a public message board?

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Then I'm pretty damn smart to be able to tell myself things I didn't already know. Or believe even.

I'm shocked!    Shocked, I tell you, to see such profanity, such vulgarity, such utterly base, debasing, and contemptible language here on this board, coming from a purportedly faithful Latter-day Saint!  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, changed said:

A testimony of the Apostles and Prophets is exactly what I do not have right now - that is what started it all - someone called to authority abused the kids, and now I no longer trust those called to authority.  Thomas doubted, the apostles - they denied Christ, could not stay awake even one hour - forbid children from coming to Christ, betrayed Christ - continually had everything wrong.  I will no longer raise my hand to sustain those who abused my kids.

It is not supposed to be a testimony in any arm of flesh - I don't care if that arm of flesh is a "prophet".  It is supposed to just be a testimony in the the Savior, in God.

How does anyone come to know the Savior without apostles and prophets?  I guess it is what you hope for... I have been to Israel, have walked those dusty streets... there are some real, tangible, evidences over there.

 

... on another note, I'l be running around in Belize / Guatamala etc. this summer... any particular books I should read, or sites to see over there?  

But the testimony concerns Jesus Christ, not the Apostles and Prophets. I’ve gotten that testimony for myself and have shown my kids; they know in Whom to trust and are teaching their kids. I think you’re saying that you have it.

I just read a talk by President Eyring about sustaining the Apostles and Prophets and others. https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/2019/05/34eyring?lang=eng “We are commanded by God not to judge others unrighteously, but in practice, we find that hard to avoid. Almost everything we do in working with people leads us to evaluate them. And in almost every aspect of our lives, we compare ourselves with others. We may do so for many reasons, some of them reasonable, but it often leads us to be critical.”

I hope you find some resolution, legal and spiritual, regarding whoever abused your kids.

[changed]

52 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Why are you talking about my standing before God, when, as I have already said, my standing before God is a matter between God and me and no one else?  We differ on certain fundamental things, but that doesn't make it my place to ask you to justify your standing before God on a public message board, so why do you think it's your place to ask me to justify my standing before God on a public message board?

I think my tone of voice is not quite coming through - please do not picture in your mind a sarcastic eye-rolling skeptic.... picture a broken-heart, someone with the foundation ripped from under them, without support, without faith in anything or anyone - looking for answers, trying to figure things out.  

 

Like an abused animal that bites and growls - it is a test.  Those not loving or secure enough to get past the teeth will not be strong enough to help.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Asking for a friend  - Haha, no asking for myself.  I've read some stuff that ...well... I can't unread.  Everything is 180 from where it was now - reading scriptures, prayer, church - I go, I do, but it is all 180 from what it used to be.

Got it! I was curious.  I don’t know people well enough yet to understand so thanks .  

I think spiritual crisis is so painful. 

To answer your question, I personally am constantly evolving.  And the growing pains don’t always feel good. 

Sometimes I wish my faith were exactly as it was when I was a youth- it felt so safe, unchallenged.  It was easy.  I was black and white.  

Now, as I learn and see, I see that life is complex.  People are disappointing if I expect perfection.  Adults aren’t to be placed on pedestals.  Bodies die.  My own life didn’t turn out as expected. In some ways, things are better than expected. 

When I discovered the danger of diet soda it changed my behavior.  I still drink it on rare occasion but not with the same joy . 

But I did buy a car that was poorly rated.  It worked really well for me.  * It upset me when my friend used to tell me what a pos it was *.  Don’t yuck my yum.  That car ran forever and towed all my toys.  I cried when I traded it in.  Felt I was abandoning my child.  That was weird. 

Bless you in your journey. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And get them right. Even events in the future and things I can't see.

This reminds me of something one of my undergraduate lecturers once said: Freud didn't like the idea of God, so he shrunk Him down and put Him inside man's brain. But it takes as much faith to believe in either case.

You are really taking this personally. Sorry about that. I think if it’s working for you, great, keep doing it. My experiences have been more like the wrong road story by Elder Holland, where they get prompted by the spirit but ended up going the wrong way - except I’m not willing to twist myself in knots to make it work. Or the awesome missionary story Elder Holland told about the missionary who used the spirit to find his long lost brother silence dobermans, except it was all made up. 

Closer to home I grew up with my parents telling awe inspiring stories about how the spirit prompted this or that. I see things through a different lens now. My mother, the most spiritual person I know in real life, was prompted to tell me that my son’s very high jaundice levels were going to go down (they didn’t), told my sister that her brain tumor wouldn’t impact her optic nerve (it did) and I can go on and on. Does she get some stuff right? Yes she does. And that is the stuff she remembers and talks about, but it is clearly just confirmation bias. My much more rational father does the same thing but more subtle. The stake presidency he was serving in was being released and he felt a strong prompting that he was going to be called as the new stake president. Well he wasn’t, but a couple months later he was called as the stake patriarch. He has now reinterpreted his prompting. Clearly he was prompted ahead of time about the calling, he just got a detail wrong. 

Have you seen much Derren Brown? As an atheist, he uses physiological tricks to do all kinds of things. He gave 15 people in 3 different countries the equivalent of patriarchal blessings. These blessings were so accurate it moved some of them to tears. He produced a powerful spiritual experience in atheist. He talks to dead people as a medium. He has a Netflix special where he does faith healings. And yet it is all tricks and placebo  

Now it’s possible that you are experiencing something special, and again if it works for you great, but you’ll pardon me if I accept my lived experience over yours (and of course you will do the same). 

Peace,

John

Edited April 30, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Kenngo1969]

28 minutes ago, changed said:

I think my tone of voice is not quite coming through - please do not picture in your mind a sarcastic eye-rolling skeptic.... picture a broken-heart, someone with the foundation ripped from under them, without support, without faith in anything or anyone - looking for answers, trying to figure things out.  

 

Like an abused animal that bites and growls - it is a test.  Those not loving or secure enough to get past the teeth will not be strong enough to help.

I haven't pictured you as a "sarcastic, eye-rolling skeptic."  Absent any compelling indication I should do otherwise, I don't have any reason to not take your self-description as accurate.  I haven't pictured you as anything, really: I'm not responding to any image I might have of you (or not) in my mind's eye.  I'm simply responding to what you have written.  I'm sorry for the difficulties you are experiencing, I bear you no ill will, and I wish you well.  I'm not trying to compare our respective difficulties (playing tribulation  p o k e r  is useless, anyway: "My  s t r a i g h t  f l u s h  beats your  f u l l  h o u s e!" ) but I have my own difficulties; they are different, both in nature and in degree, from yours, but I have my own difficulties.  I simply choose, difficulties notwithstanding, to believe.

All of that having been said, my questions still stand:

1. I would never dream of asking you to justify your standing before God on a public message board.  I don't think it is my place, so why, in contrast, do you think it is your place to ask me to justify my standing before God on a public message board?  (For the record, I am a faithful, [or at least a striving], Latter-day Saint.  As I said, I don't think it's any of your business, but you can deduce my answers from that.)
2. Other than semantics (to-may-to, to-mah-to, po-tay-to, po-tah-to) what's the difference between "giving up" beliefs and "changing" them?  If I change my beliefs on a given subject, I have simply "given up" an old belief for a new one, haven't I?

[MustardSeed]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You are really taking this personally. Sorry about that. I think if it’s working for you, great, keep doing it. My experiences have been more like the wrong road story by Elder Holland, where they get prompted by the spirit but ended up going the wrong way - except I’m not willing to twist myself in knots to make it work. Or the awesome missionary story Elder Holland told about the missionary who used the spirit to find his long lost brother silence dobermans, except it was all made up. 

Closer to home I grew up with my parents telling awe inspiring stories about how the spirit prompted this or that. I see things through a different lens now. My mother, the most spiritual person I know in real life, was prompted to tell me that my son’s very high jaundice levels were going to go down (they didn’t), told my sister that her brain tumor wouldn’t impact her optic nerve (it did) and I can go on and on. Does she get some stuff right? Yes she does. And that is the stuff she remembers and talks about, but it is clearly just confirmation bias. My much more rational father does the same thing but more subtle. The stake presidency he was serving in was being released and he felt a strong prompting that he was going to be called as the new stake president. Well he wasn’t, but a couple months later he was called as the stake patriarch. He has now reinterpreted his prompting. Clearly he was prompted ahead of time about the calling, he just got a detail wrong. 

Have you seen much Derren Brown? As an atheist, he uses physiological tricks to do all kinds of things. He gave 15 people in 3 different countries the equivalent of patriarchal blessings. These blessings were so accurate it moved some of them to tears. He produced a powerful spiritual experience in atheist. He talks to dead people as a medium. He has a Netflix special where he does faith healings. And yet it is all tricks and placebo  

Now it’s possible that you are experiencing something special, and again if it works for you great, but you’ll pardon me if I accept my lived experience over yours (and of course you will do the same). 

Peace,

John

Spirit promptings are interesting aren’t they.  

I allow them for myself but keep them to myself and don’t listen to anyone else’s for the same reasons. 

My visionary mother in law told me she saw a baby who wanted to come to our family. 

I asked her if she was pregnant.  

She has disliked me ever since. 

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, changed said:

In a discussion on the priesthood ban someone said:

"if we hold to what we truly believe to be true, and have faith that God will straighten things out if we are faithful, then...He will straighten things out. "

 

... if we hold to what we truly believe...

I do not think it is good to hold onto beliefs. 

 

Some beliefs are good to let go of and others are important to hold on to.  It seems weird to try to argue that it should always be one way or the other.

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My visionary mother in law told me she saw a baby who wanted to come to our family. 

I asked her if she was pregnant.  

She has disliked me ever since. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Spirit promptings are interesting aren’t they.  

I allow them for myself but keep them to myself and don’t listen to anyone else’s for the same reasons. 

My visionary mother in law told me she saw a baby who wanted to come to our family. 

I asked her if she was pregnant.  

She has disliked me ever since. 

Well played.

I think my favorite is still the guy who told a girl he was crushing on that he had it revealed that they had promised each other in the premortal world that they would marry. Her response: “Well, I am not making that mistake again.”

[Maidservant]

I am here now.  (Exodus 3:14  I am that I am)

That is the only reality that I understand to be unchanging.  Everything else changes.

First, I am not in a search for truth.  I personally am of the observation that that search has damaged humanity individually and collectively.  Thus, judging the harm of it, I no longer can participate.  I seek to be alive (fully), to be in a state of love and peace.  I understand all things to be energy and in a state of energy.  And so I participate in those things and allow those things (or actively seek for those things) into my system that create a state of love and peace for myself and those in my path.  When I use the word 'belief', I am referring to an energetic program in my body from which I operate (live).  I do not use the word 'belief' to describe concepts I hold an opinion on as to their correctness.

Secondly, if I did choose to frame my life in terms of a search for Truth, and furthermore Truth as presented in the New Testament (were I to tie my doings on this planet directly to that collection), I have come to the conclusion by reading and studying the New Testament that the English syllable 'truth' has much different content (i.e. meaning) in the New Testament than the content (i.e. covered ground) the syllable holds nowadays in our (American, post-Enlightenment) minds.  In other words, we live, argue, and hold forth on a content that does not match the original Hebrew/Judaic/Aramaic/Greek content.  So if we wish to be faithful to the New Testament 'Truth' we are waaaaay off.  Simply, what I think our current content is, is 'conceptually and factually correct'.  Which is not what New Testament truth is.  Not to mention that 'belief' and 'truth' do not have the connection in the New Testament that we now make.  In my own conclusion, of course.  Now, as I said, if I felt a good frame for my life was the New Testament search for Truth, it would look much different than the belief and truth discussion we are having right now.  But I have instead chosen to discard the syllable, not finding enough to salvage in the content, and prefer other syllables and frames to describe what it is I'm doing in this lifetime and in eternity.  Namely--the creation and expression of love and peace.

I do, of course, have a perception, a conceptual filter that is unique to me, that is based on my preferences and direct experiences and how I have chosen to interpret those experiences and/or the only way I am able to interpret at present because I don't have options I don't know I have.  I would be ashamed if I had the same filter five years from now, that I currently hold.  I hope to continually enlighten that filter and continually learn to better 'see from God's eyes'.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Maidservant

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, changed said:

I think my tone of voice is not quite coming through - please do not picture in your mind a sarcastic eye-rolling skeptic.... picture a broken-heart, someone with the foundation ripped from under them, without support, without faith in anything or anyone - looking for answers, trying to figure things out.  

 

Like an abused animal that bites and growls - it is a test.  Those not loving or secure enough to get past the teeth will not be strong enough to help.

Not fun, I hear you Changed. Just think of the members they could keep vs. the kick to the shins it's giving to people with doubts, especially with talks like Elder Renland's talk with cartoons of the  beat-up boat and  whack-a-mole analogies. This makes it worse. https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-and-sister-renlund-tell-young-adults-to-let-faith-not-doubt-drive-questions?lang=eng

The church must know that this doesn't keep people in, just nudges them further out. Maybe that's their goal. But with ministering maybe they are trying, it just doesn't appear that they make known the issues very easily.

This only makes the church appear more false, when hiding things. If the church would be brazen with what they now know about church history, how about they actually believe in it enough that it doesn't matter what gets said, as long as it's honest and factual.

And reach out to those that are struggling, rather than excommunicate those that want to help those like me, speaking of the recent excommunication of Cody and Leah Young for instance, because they have a private FB group that is a safe place to talk about their struggles. 

The church is drawing the line in the sand, and booting out those that cross it. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Spirit promptings are interesting aren’t they.  

I allow them for myself but keep them to myself and don’t listen to anyone else’s for the same reasons. 

My visionary mother in law told me she saw a baby who wanted to come to our family. 

I asked her if she was pregnant.  

She has disliked me ever since. 

You are such a hoot, I'd love to know you in person, you'd make me laugh and I need that, haha!!

[RevTestament]

13 hours ago, changed said:

I do not think it is good to hold onto beliefs.  We are all misinformed, when we get new information we should let go of old beliefs, and follow where the new information leads, correct?

Example:  Let's say your church taught the earth was flat, or that the earth was the center of the universe, and you believed your church leaders and thought holding onto that belief was somehow showing faith in God.

Then - new information comes along, people are saying the earth is not flat afterall.... so.... do you

a) ignore what everyone is saying, and "hold onto your beliefs"

b) study it out using only church approved material, and rationalize how the church beliefs in a flat earth are correct

c) study it out using materials from multiple organizations, test it out yourself, and come to your own conclusion - then re-evaluate your beliefs.  (Keep some beliefs, get rid of others)

So... what beliefs have you discarded?  what beliefs would you have a hard time getting rid of?  What pieces of your faith do you hold onto, and what pieces are you willing to let go of?

I do hold on to my beliefs unless God shows me I am wrong. For instance my beliefs about the nature of God have changed over my life. For instance I was raised in a trinitarian Baptist(and sometimes Presbyterian) Church. However, I developed questions or doubts about that theology. Yeshua said too many things that seemed to contradict that theology. I also had other doubts about that theology like is God really going to send everyone who is not saved through Jesus Christ to hell for ever even if they never heard of Him? Even though I had never heard of the Mormons, when I began to listen to the missionary teaching, what they had to say just was compelling to me. It just sunk into my heart as truth. So I discarded trinitarianism, and joined the Church. Next I didn't feel I understood the atonement. so my progress in the priesthood stopped as a teacher. Was I right to be so adamant about understanding everything? Well, it set me on a path that I think I learned the answer through life. So Back to the Church I came. 

3 hours ago, changed said:

Haha Kenngo, love the description.  So how do you answer these ones?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

Do I sustain the Church leaders? Yes, I do. Do I believe they are perfect and always right? No, I don't. Those are two different things in my mind. In fact I personally believe the Church continues to be wrong about a good number of scriptural points. Was BY or Kimball right? I am probably somewhere in the middle - closer to BY than Kimball. To expect perfection from leaders because the Church "is true" I personally feel is a path to a lot of doubt, hurt, pain, etc. So I just don't do it. I know they are not perfect. If I was the Church president, I would not be perfect either. I would try to lead with what inspiration I feel I receive. That is the best any of us can do. To me doubting the whole Church because one sees inconsistencies in Church history or teachings, is just the wrong tack.

3 hours ago, changed said:

A testimony of the Apostles and Prophets is exactly what I do not have right now - that is what started it all - someone called to authority abused the kids, and now I no longer trust those called to authority.  Thomas doubted, the apostles - they denied Christ, could not stay awake even one hour - forbid children from coming to Christ, betrayed Christ - continually had everything wrong.  I will no longer raise my hand to sustain those who abused my kids.

It is not supposed to be a testimony in any arm of flesh - I don't care if that arm of flesh is a "prophet".  It is supposed to just be a testimony in the the Savior, in God.

How does anyone come to know the Savior without apostles and prophets?  I guess it is what you hope for... I have been to Israel, have walked those dusty streets... there are some real, tangible, evidences over there.

I receive joy out of my search for truth. I enjoy uncovering new tidbits of scriptural understanding about the Godhead, and everything else, and I hope one day others benefit from what I have learned. Yet, some can be put off if I try to impart the way I understand things. I guess they feel they should be able to kneel down and pray about anything and receive an answer right away, and get upset if I try to say I don't think God works that way. I have learned in steps, and i think the scriptures teach this, so I try to impart that to others, but sometimes offense is taken like I am trying to set myself up as "holier than thou." It really is because I believe the more one understands, the more responsibility they have - and the harder they can fall. I think our ex-bro Satan is an example. So I believe God does not impart His innermost "secrets/oracles" until He believes we are ready, and won't fall away.  That can be a hard message for some to accept. 
Can people know God without apostles and prophets? I think that is a hard one. He has appointed them to teach His word. Without them we wouldn't have any scriptures to read to learn about Him. I believe I encountered God as a young Baptist boy. I got baptized and went home and prayed in repentance. I felt great joy. I don't believe one has to be LDS to repent or feel the promptings of the Holy Spirit. In fact I believe our Lord spoke to me as a Baptist boy in Bible school. That was the beginning of a long path for me. I have been to many Christian Churches. What you experienced can happen in any of them, and has. Youth ministers have committed indiscretions with underage girls. Catholic parishes have had well-publicized molestation scandals. People sin no matter what Church they are in, and going to a different Church does not mean you can automatically trust everyone there. So does that mean you can't believe in God? Yeshua said to forgive them. That doesn't mean we can't hold them accountable, but forgiveness is the only way we can continue to progress in the gospel - otherwise our souls become corrupted with selfish emotions of anger, hate, etc. God has no choice but to work through imperfect people. Your experience is the problem I see with the expectations set up by Church leaders that they cannot lead us astray. This can create a huge hole if the expectation is not met. I believe the President, like other Church members is authorized to prophesy - that doesn't mean he will receive prophecy. Ward bishops are authorized to judge certain temporal needs and serious transgressions, but that doesn't mean they will be righteous always. They fall to sin like everyone else. If you can learn to drop the expectation of perfection, then I think you will be on a healthy path to healing, so i kinda wish the Church would learn that. I know they will learn that. I am not putting any onus on you. I believe this process has started already through changes in doctrine or policy or whatever you want to call it.  

None of this changes the truths the Church teaches. Do they lead me to happiness? I receive happiness from the joy my sons have gotten through spreading the gospel and leading others to Christ. I receive joy and satisfaction from raising well-adjusted sons who contribute to society and to Christianity. The Church has helped me to do that. I have been offended by some at Church, but I know they were wrong, and have forgiven them. My wife has had to work through similar issues as yours, and she grew away from the Church for about 4 years. In fact I had to insist that I was going back without her if necessary. She still has some pain from her experiences, but I think she has forgiven to the extent she needed to be able to continue a healthy spiritual life which brings her joy and satisfaction. I believe that is possible for everybody. 

 

 

[Dersman29]

19 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

I had to give up my belief that the prophet was the single authority for the entire world and that this church is the only “true” church on earth. I had to completely rework my testimony and core beliefs in order to stay in the church. 

 

I feel that I am currently at a place where I am reworking all of my beliefs as well... could I ask you to expand on your experience doing so and what that meant to you?

 

thanks!

[MustardSeed]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You are such a hoot, I'd love to know you in person, you'd make me laugh and I need that, haha!!

Yes! That would be fun.  I fancy myself funny.  

 

[Nacho2dope]

I would look at who was telling me the belief I had was wrong. Your example is kind of hard because it can be proven. Are there beliefs in the Church that can be proven to be wrong-not a policy but a belief?

[Joshua Valentine]

14 hours ago, changed said:

Asking for a friend  - Haha, no asking for myself.  I've read some stuff that ...well... I can't unread.  Everything is 180 from where it was now - reading scriptures, prayer, church - I go, I do, but it is all 180 from what it used to be.

Everything is 180?... it is all 180?... So, like, ¨changed¨?😋