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Contradiction among the Apostles


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3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We seldom get actual autobiographies, such as that of Parley P. Pratt.  What we get instead are often letters and diaries/journals published by someone else, as in the case of Wilford Woodruff, David O. McKay, or Spencer Kimball.  Peggy Fletcher has a very insightful article on the problem at https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3386750&itype=CMSID .  I don't see any likelihood of someone's faith being damaged, unless their faith is really just a fairy faith -- a faith not worth having anyhow.

I think Ed Kimball’s and Greg Prince’s biographies are the exceptions that prove the rule. The rule being that no real insight into the thought processes, behind the scenes actions are published. Especially in the modern church. I’d love to be wrong though. 

See Clarks post here (which matches my understanding as well):

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71811-contradiction-among-the-apostles/?do=findComment&comment=1209903864

 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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7 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Two things:

First) What are you talking about?  The organization can do what it wants. My difficulty here comes in having no access to knowing what the truth is of what happened?

Second) Why so passive aggressive?  Just tell me I need to be more humble, rather than telegraph me a message in the third person plural.

Man up. I can take it what you have to say to me.  Maybe you can have the courage to say it.

What I said, and how I said it, was plain enough. If you don't get it, and even need to control how I talk to you, then for your sake it is best that you don't understand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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11 minutes ago, Wade Englund said:

What I said, and how I said it, was plain enough. If you don't get it, and even need to control how I talk to you, then for your sake it is best that you don't understand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Coward. 

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There are diaries and memoirs of previous GAs, you just have to know where to look for them. I bought two autobiographies of Seventies from their families. Some are not printed in high numbers so they are impossible to find.

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11 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

..................................

Second) Why so passive aggressive?  Just tell me I need to be more humble, rather than telegraph me a message in the third person plural.

Man up. I can take it what you have to say to me.  Maybe you can have the courage to say it.

Sometimes more than courage is called for.  A person can get banned from a thread (or worse) by being too direct and reckless.  Even civility can seem rude at times.  Can't always tell what the mods will deem appropriate.

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On 5/1/2019 at 2:14 PM, Metis_LDS said:

It is okay if no one believes a word I write.  I was a counselor to someone who said that they were a friend of Thomas S. Monson (this was before he became President of the church).  Yeah I know people say the wildest things and talk is cheap.  But then he proved it to me.  He then stated clearly about his knowledge of how the Twelve operate.  Sometimes the groundwork takes years on some issues because nothing moves forward unless all agree. So yes one member of the Twelve can stop things from going forward at the level of the Twelve. This was told to me by someone who really was a friend of Elder Monson.

I heard or read the same thing, but can't recall where, but that has been my understanding.  I think I may have read about it in The Rise of Modern Mormonism--David O. McKay.

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On 5/2/2019 at 7:37 AM, SouthernMo said:

In 2015, Eric Hawkins addressed the rumors of President Monson’s health.  Interestingly, he issued no denials, only saying that his health was a private matter.

Take from that what you will. But, if I were asked if I had Alzheimer’s or Dementia, I’d probably tell people I did not have those diseases rather than say my health is personal.

Well, if some of you care that much, why don't you order a copy of his obituary. IF he was diagnosed with Alzheimers, it should be cited, because it's considered a factor in cause of death for those who have it.  And if it's not there, I think that should end the speculation.

 

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28 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Well, if some of you care that much, why don't you order a copy of his obituary. IF he was diagnosed with Alzheimers, it should be cited, because it's considered a factor in cause of death for those who have it.  And if it's not there, I think that should end the speculation.

 

That's a fair point.  Is it Utah law that a cause of death and or any related illness be published in an obituary?

While not on point, what does it matter?  Does is memory need to be defended if he didn't have a brain disorder?  Would he have been less of a president or disqualified if he did have it?

Maybe I'm mistaking the mood from you or others, but why does President Monson need to be defended?

Of course, you could rightfully ask me the inverse question: Why is it important that we acknowledge that he could have had it?  What is the point?

For the record, I believe he did have a brain disorder.  But it would't bother my testimony in him as a leader one way or the other.  It would only bother me if there were efforts to hide it to promote the idea that "all is well" among the members.

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42 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Well, if some of you care that much, why don't you order a copy of his obituary. IF he was diagnosed with Alzheimers, it should be cited, because it's considered a factor in cause of death for those who have it.  And if it's not there, I think that should end the speculation.

 

Obituaries rarely list cause of death. Why would they? 

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11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

That's a fair point.  Is it Utah law that a cause of death and or any related illness be published in an obituary?

Of course it isn’t. That’s ridiculous. Not sure what alter idem is thinking. Obituaries themselves are optional, and extremely personal. 

Maybe she’s thinking of autopsies. That still wouldn’t make sense, as one they are not public and are only done when someone dies suspiciously or at families request. 

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8 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Of course it isn’t. That’s ridiculous. Not sure what alter idem is thinking. Obituaries themselves are optional, and extremely personal. 

Maybe she’s thinking of autopsies. That still wouldn’t make sense, as one they are not public and are only done when someone dies suspiciously or at families request. 

I didn't think so, but I've been wrong before.  And, if @alter idem knows something about this subject that I don't, I want to give her the opportunity to share what insight she has.

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1 hour ago, alter idem said:

Well, if some of you care that much, why don't you order a copy of his obituary. IF he was diagnosed with Alzheimers, it should be cited, because it's considered a factor in cause of death for those who have it.  And if it's not there, I think that should end the speculation.

As others noted it's dubious it'd be in the obituary. But it's worth noting that Alzheimers is only one of many ways to get dementia and memory loss.

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On 5/6/2019 at 12:41 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Obituaries rarely list cause of death. Why would they? 

Yes, thanks Calm, I meant death certificate.  Obituaries sometimes list cause of death, but I was thinking of a death certificate.  I don't think they need to be ordered--most Obituaries are online now.

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On 5/6/2019 at 12:31 PM, SouthernMo said:

That's a fair point.  Is it Utah law that a cause of death and or any related illness be published in an obituary?

While not on point, what does it matter?  Does is memory need to be defended if he didn't have a brain disorder?  Would he have been less of a president or disqualified if he did have it?

Maybe I'm mistaking the mood from you or others, but why does President Monson need to be defended?

Of course, you could rightfully ask me the inverse question: Why is it important that we acknowledge that he could have had it?  What is the point?

For the record, I believe he did have a brain disorder.  But it would't bother my testimony in him as a leader one way or the other.  It would only bother me if there were efforts to hide it to promote the idea that "all is well" among the members.

The point I was trying to make is that while I really don't care if he had Alzheimers or not, other people tried to make an issue of the possibility, just as some did with Pres. Reagan.  Some were speculating about it on this thread.

I think Calm's reminder that he was diabetic is something to consider.  I've have loved ones with Alzheimers and Diabetes so I've seen how it can affect them.  Basically, what he suffered from was old age.

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23 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Yes, thanks Calm, I meant death certificate.  Obituaries sometimes list cause of death, but I was thinking of a death certificate.  I don't think they need to be ordered--most Obituaries are online now.

Death certificates are not public for 50 years and as discussed above don’t list dementia or Alzheimer’s in the majority of cases. 

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8 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Death certificates are not public for 50 years and as discussed above don’t list dementia or Alzheimer’s in the majority of cases. 

I know a person who orders death certificates all the time for their work and the certificate will list Alzheimers or dementia as incident to cause of death.  I've seen it.

I'm not sure why you think you can't get a death certificate for 50 years--I just looked online for Utah and you can order one, but it costs money and in Utah you need to be related or have permission from a relative of the person who died.

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4 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I know a person who orders death certificates all the time for their work and the certificate will list Alzheimers or dementia as incident to cause of death.  I've seen it.

I wish you'd read what I wrote. I said in the majority of cases, Alzheimer's and dementia or not listed on the death certificate even when known to be present. I will repost the link here:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24254704/ 

I did not say that it is never listed.

4 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I'm not sure why you think you can't get a death certificate for 50 years--I just looked online for Utah and you can order one, but it costs money and in Utah you need to be related or have permission from a relative of the person who died.

Again, I didn't say no one could access for 50 years, I said they weren't public for 50 years. So unless you are a close relative of President Monson, viewing the death certificate is not going to happen.

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