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SouthernMo

Contradiction among the Apostles

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15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I guess if you put a lot of stock in rumor-mongering, that might have some meaning.  I don't, which is why I want first-hand observations from those closest to him (Uchtdorf, Eyring, his doctor, etc.).  I don't need no third hand hearsay.  Good historians learn early on not to retroject, and to be very suspicious of convenient retrojection.  Offhand observations have little value, but people love to make them.

What do good historians do when those closest to him deliberately avoid commenting on the matter?

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On 4/30/2019 at 2:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You completely misunderstood me:  I was referring to people using dementia as a convenient excuse in the absence of real dementia to explain away anything they don't agree with.  People tend to retroject non-existent "facts" into the past so as to explain the inexplicable.  That is what Tacenda was doing, and I was replying to her assumption.  Pres Monson did eventually decline to the extent that he was unable to get up for more than 5 minutes in his final year, and he was obviously in serious trouble.  The same thing happened to Pres McKay, and I was able to see obvious signs of it at the Oakland Temple dedication.  What I object to is the back-dating of a decline in such manner as to render actual evidence meaningless.

I'm glad that they have a sense of humor.  At least that story gave me a chuckle.  ☺️

I wasn't thinking childish thoughts of that German Shepherd as a "liberal savior," but rather as an accurate observer of Pres Monson in his declining years.   I think that he had an excellent opportunity to give us the straight scoop on what in fact took place.  We get a lot of hearsay.  I prefer first-hand accounts.

(bold mine)

No, I was only saying what Greg Prince said on the Mormon Land podcast, I've no idea. Watched pres. Monson's conference talk in 2015 and compared it to older talks and there is a difference in that he was just very tired or worn out.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Good historians learn early on not to retroject, and to be very suspicious of convenient retrojection. 

2012 was earlier than 2015, which was earlier than 2017/18. Do you not understand the direction that time flows? Or do you not understand what "retroject" means? 

Edited by the narrator

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:46 PM, Tacenda said:

There is one point not mentioned yet, that Pres. Monson wasn't fully mentally functional enough to ok the policy, since he had dementia. 

Does anyone know who was running his twitter and facebook accounts?  Every once in awhile someone would find a quote from one of his talks relevant to a current event or news story and post.  During a number of his talks the last 10 years I would run phrases through the conference corpus and find out which talks he was remixing.  I hope we can get to a point where emeritus apostleship is more seriously considered.  The prophet Joseph tried to pass the baton to Hyrum around the time he was running for president.  

Edited by blueglass

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On 4/29/2019 at 9:50 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Because I care about the context in which a history is produced, and that includes what the author may bring or not bring to the enterprise. It's a general issue; I've never read anything that Mr Prince has produced. I have listened to him speak online a couple of times, and it's clear to me that he isn't a trained historian. That's not a criticism or endorsement, just a part of the context.

 His David O McKay biography won both the Mormon History association and the Utah Historical association prizes in 2005.  As a trained historian why did you not consider reading his work?  What do you have against the reviews of Prince written work by Richard Bushman and Jan Shipps?  When the Journal of Mormon history reviewed the book they wrote, "they grew more confident on the material's accuracy, the further they read in the book."  Yes they use the word accuracy.  So take it up with the board of editors of JMH.  

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27 minutes ago, blueglass said:

As a trained historian why did you not consider reading his work?

This is not a matter of 'consideration'. I've never encountered his work.

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6 hours ago, the narrator said:

2012 was earlier than 2015, which was earlier than 2017/18. Do you not understand the direction that time flows? Or do you not understand what "retroject" means? 

Good historians know that rumors are still rumors, despite when they begin to appear.  Good historians do not base their conclusions on rumors, hearsay, and off-the-wall supposition.  We live in a society which constantly takes rumors as fact, without asking for corroboration.  Since you know all that, Loyd, my question would be why you are so hostile to good historiography?  Before this absurd exchange, I should have thought that you know exactly what constitutes good historiography.  Am i wrong?

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7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

...............................

No, I was only saying what Greg Prince said on the Mormon Land podcast, I've no idea. Watched pres. Monson's conference talk in 2015 and compared it to older talks and there is a difference in that he was just very tired or worn out.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng

Pres Monson delivered two sermons at each Conference that year, for a total of four.  I thought he did a good job.  However, as you say, he was a very old man.  Don't know that I would say that he was "worn out."  None of that means dementia, and I have suggested to others that we will know more when (and if) his counselors write their memoires.  A medical diagnosis would help, based on an actual brain scan.  Same applies to others in public life.  Ronald Reagan, for example, is believed to have had early Alzheimers while still in office.  Yet the detailed discussion by snopes.com rejects that claim as unproven, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ronald-reagan-alzheimers-disease/ .

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9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

What do good historians do when those closest to him deliberately avoid commenting on the matter?

They withhold judgment until diaries become available, or until a physician finally lets the cat out of the bag.

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5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

They withhold judgment until diaries become available, or until a physician finally lets the cat out of the bag.

In 2015, Eric Hawkins addressed the rumors of President Monson’s health.  Interestingly, he issued no denials, only saying that his health was a private matter.

Take from that what you will. But, if I were asked if I had Alzheimer’s or Dementia, I’d probably tell people I did not have those diseases rather than say my health is personal.

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13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, I was only saying what Greg Prince said on the Mormon Land podcast, I've no idea. Watched pres. Monson's conference talk in 2015 and compared it to older talks and there is a difference in that he was just very tired or worn out.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng

I ain't seeing it. When he was escorted from the stage, yes, he looked a little old, but that is not shown in that clip. That in no way implies dementia as some are implying. If he could balance his checkbook, he had enough capacity to continue in office. He actually looked pretty darn good for someone in his mid 90s. I do think the loss of his wife affected him though. That is understandable. 

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53 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I ain't seeing it. When he was escorted from the stage, yes, he looked a little old, but that is not shown in that clip. That in no way implies dementia as some are implying. If he could balance his checkbook, he had enough capacity to continue in office. He actually looked pretty darn good for someone in his mid 90s. I do think the loss of his wife affected him though. That is understandable. 

He died at 90, so definitely not as chipper as Pres. Nelson. so he was around 87 in 2015. But my mother died at 75 having had Alzheimer's/Dementia for 10 years, so age doesn't matter. And you're so right about his wife's death affecting him greatly. 

So we have no real evidence unless we were there at the time he ok'd the policy whether he had a severe enough dementia, and maybe Robert is right, I was one of those that want the policy to be wrong so much that I'd use an excuse like that.

But I didn't think Greg Prince was like a person like me, thought he might be in the know. 

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5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

In 2015, Eric Hawkins addressed the rumors of President Monson’s health.  Interestingly, he issued no denials, only saying that his health was a private matter.

Take from that what you will. But, if I were asked if I had Alzheimer’s or Dementia, I’d probably tell people I did not have those diseases rather than say my health is personal.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda,.... it would be nice if someone actually had a true medical diagnosis for all of us to absorb.  I can agree, but see the only responsible way to deal with the question is the same way snopes.com dealt with rumors of Ronald Reagan's early Alzheimers.

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Diabetes, which was confirmed, could account for any confusion or weakness seen.  Even when defined as under control (usually in my experience as good A1cs), there can be a lot of variation.

This is not to state there were no additional issues, just that there did not have to be.  My 28 year old acts confused and weak when her sugars are off and stressful or unusual activity usually do that to her (she is type 1, but certain things are consistent in terms of how blood sugar levels affect one).

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/695250131/Thomas-S-Monson-named-as-new-LDS-Church-president.html

Quote

He said he was diagnosed with type II diabetes several years ago, but the disease is under control.

 

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Woulda, coulda, shoulda,.... it would be nice if someone actually had a true medical diagnosis for all of us to absorb.  I can agree, but see the only responsible way to deal with the question is the same way snopes.com dealt with rumors of Ronald Reagan's early Alzheimers.

In less than five years, I predict we’ll have one reliable source who will come forward and confirm/refute. 

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44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Diabetes, which was confirmed, could account for any confusion or weakness seen.  Even when defined as under control (usually in my experience as good A1cs), there can be a lot of variation.

This is not to state there were no additional issues, just that there did not have to be.  My 28 year old acts confused and weak when her sugars are off and stressful or unusual activity usually do that to her (she is type 1, but certain things are consistent in terms of how blood sugar levels affect one).

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/695250131/Thomas-S-Monson-named-as-new-LDS-Church-president.html

 

I seem to recall then Pres. Uchtdorf mentioning something about memory loss, with Pres. Monson

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3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

In less than five years, I predict we’ll have one reliable source who will come forward and confirm/refute. 

Possibly.  More likely that we will have to wait for the memoires of Eyring or Uchtdorf.  Even then, dementia doesn't explain everything.  It isn't a Deus ex machina.

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Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Possibly.  More likely that we will have to wait for the memoires of Eyring or Uchtdorf.  Even then, dementia doesn't explain everything.  It isn't a Deus ex machina.

Agreed. Dementia or Alzheimer’s is not an identity - only a part of someone. I have no doubt the Holy Ghost carried that man.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Possibly.  More likely that we will have to wait for the memoires of Eyring or Uchtdorf.  Even then, dementia doesn't explain everything.  It isn't a Deus ex machina.

I didn’t know apostles published memoirs. Can you point me to a couple examples. Even if they did, I can’t believe they would ever talk about something like that. Might damage someone’s faith. Not everything that’s true is useful...

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding

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29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I didn’t know apostles published memoirs. Can you point me to a couple examples. Even if they did, I can’t believe they would ever talk about something like that. Might damage someone’s faith. Not everything that’s true is useful...

There's strong incentives against it. Even diaries have become a bit of an issue. I seem to recall someone mentioned that the Church wanted diaries donated to the Church so they could control the release of them. Although that was back before the current document openness.

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On 4/29/2019 at 4:31 PM, SouthernMo said:

Maybe.

It is difficult to be in a church where I will NEVER get an answer or an explanation (timeline) as to what happened.

This is perfectly understandable. People who need organizations to conform to their personal will tend not to fare very well in organizations designed for people to conform to God''s will. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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2 minutes ago, Wade Englund said:

This is perfectly understandable. People who need organizations to conform to their personal will tend not to fare very well in organizations designed for people to conform to God''s will. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

This works only if you believe that transparency in God’s church is against God’s will. 

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3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This works only if you believe that transparency in God’s church is against God’s will. 

No. It works just fine  if the level and nature and priority of transparency in God's church conforms to God's will, but not to the will of people needing God's church to conform to them.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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20 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I didn’t know apostles published memoirs. Can you point me to a couple examples. Even if they did, I can’t believe they would ever talk about something like that. Might damage someone’s faith. Not everything that’s true is useful...

We seldom get actual autobiographies, such as that of Parley P. Pratt.  What we get instead are often letters and diaries/journals published by someone else, as in the case of Wilford Woodruff, David O. McKay, or Spencer Kimball.  Peggy Fletcher has a very insightful article on the problem at https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3386750&itype=CMSID .  I don't see any likelihood of someone's faith being damaged, unless their faith is really just a fairy faith -- a faith not worth having anyhow.

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1 hour ago, Wade Englund said:

This is perfectly understandable. People who need organizations to conform to their personal will tend not to fare very well in organizations designed for people to conform to God''s will. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Two things:

First) What are you talking about?  The organization can do what it wants. My difficulty here comes in having no access to knowing what the truth is of what happened?

Second) Why so passive aggressive?  Just tell me I need to be more humble, rather than telegraph me a message in the third person plural.

Man up. I can take it what you have to say to me.  Maybe you can have the courage to say it.

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