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lostindc

The Church is potentially spending 129 million to purchase a London office building.  

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18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Along with janitor jobs... and probably many more become missionary jobs. Woohoo. 

Love this.  My grandma and grandpa counted on this money ...to pay tithing out of a little coin purse.

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31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The real issue is that we are all talking past each other. The primary purpose of the Church is neither to accumulate wealth or to ease the temporal suffering of the world. We do some of both but neither is not how we measure our success.

How does the church measure its success?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It was a good Google Fu workout - but I finally found a 2003 news article about the event.  Christopher Hitchens was quite a popular guy, and I'm guessing him and his anti-Mother Theresa book probably fueled every negative opinion about her that I encountered.  And yep, he's basically ticked that she went about helping the poor in ways that Hitchens didn't like.  Dood sure knew how to mock.  He had a gift.

If you do a Google search for "Mother Teresa controversy" I think you will find that her critics were much more widespread than just Hitchens. Critics range from the Washing Post, to the BBC and even the prestigious medical Journal Lancet published an article critical of her.

Quote

In 1991, Robin Fox, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet visited the Home for Dying Destitutes in Calcutta (now Kolkata) and described the medical care the patients received as "haphazard". He observed that sisters and volunteers, some of whom had no medical knowledge, had to make decisions about patient care, because of the lack of doctors in the hospice.[need quotation to verify] Fox specifically held Teresa responsible for conditions in this home, and observed that her order did not distinguish between curable and incurable patients, so that people who could otherwise survive would be at risk of dying from infections and lack of treatment.

Fox conceded that the regimen he observed included cleanliness, the tending of wounds and sores, and kindness, but he noted that the sisters' approach to managing pain was "disturbingly lacking". The formulary at the facility Fox visited lacked strong analgesics which he felt clearly separated Mother Teresa's approach from the hospice movement. Fox also wrote that needles were rinsed with warm water, which left them inadequately sterilised, and that the facility did not isolate patients with tuberculosis. There have been a series of other reports documenting inattention to medical care in the order's facilities. Similar points of view have also been expressed by some former volunteers who worked for Teresa's order. Mother Teresa herself referred to the facilities as "Houses of the Dying".

See here for Wiki article on criticisms on Mother Teresa.

Sometimes it's hard to accept that our heroes were/are human.

 

Edited by CA Steve
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4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

How does the church measure its success?

The Children of God going into exaltation.

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22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The real issue is that we are all talking past each other. The primary purpose of the Church is neither to accumulate wealth or to ease the temporal suffering of the world. We do some of both but neither is not how we measure our success.

Putting an even finer point on your salient comment, It would help people like @lostindc, @Tacenda, @SouthernMo, @Jeanne, @sunstoned and others to understand that the leaders of the Church, and the Church as a body, are bound by the law of consecration and associated covenant, which, in addition to the other laws and covenants, are ultimately designed to physically and spiritually benefit mankind--or said another way, aid humanity.

To understand this, perhaps it can be explained on a personal level, I am under the same law and covenant. Yet, I go to sleep at night. Well, the question may be asked, how is my sleeping benefiting mankind? There are a number of legitimate wisecracks that could be made. But, the answer is simple. I am not directly benefiting mankind by sleeping, but ultimately I am because it gives me much needed rest that will enable me to better serve mankind (physically and spiritually) during my waking hours.

Years ago I spent a lot of money purchasing a newish 4-Runner. People may ask, how is that aiding humanity? In a direct sense, it was used on numerous occasions to transport people in need, or to take things to people in need, or to take me to help people in need. Indirectly, it transported me to people and places and things that better enabled me to provide humanitarian aid (physical and spiritual).

It is useful to understand that aiding humanity isn't just in physically feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, educating the the ignorant, etc.. It also consists in feeding the spiritually hungry, clothing the spiritually naked, educating the spiritually ignorant, healing the spiritually sick, and raising the spiritually dead, etc.. 

This occurs not just through manning food lines at the soup kitchen, or bringing much needed material to hurricane disaster survivors, etc.  It happens in Sunday School classes, at General Conference, in the temples, through missionary work, family history, and the Ministering program, etc.

And, it isn't just about helping others. It is also about helping ourselves. By following Christ, and doing the charitable things he has done, we are changed from a fallen state to exaltation.

In short, in compliance of laws and covenats within the gospel, all that the Church does is ultimately dedicated to benefiting mankind and fulfilling the Father's merciful and elevating and exalting plan.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if the general authorities will be getting bonuses on top of their six figure salaries for this acquisition. 

The church having a “lay ministry” is always a warm fuzzy feeling until you realize it doesn’t .  🙄

 

Edited by 10THAmendment

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

On a related note I do get tired of the “What Would Jesus Do?” insinuations that get bandied about

I absolutely agree. I really don't know what Jesus would do. He so often breaks expectations. I think WWJD is really more about the person saying it than Jesus.

I suppose the sentiment is good, as in "be good to each other," but when it gets used in an argument it becomes worthless.

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9 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

I wonder if the general authorities will be getting bonuses on top of their six figure salaries for this acquisition. 

The church having a “lay ministry” is always a warm fuzzy feeling until you realize it doesn’t .  🙄

 

While we are baselessly wondering about vague possibilities I sometimes wonder if you are a serial killer.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The Children of God going into exaltation.

How do they get this metric?

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19 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

I wonder if the general authorities will be getting bonuses on top of their six figure salaries for this acquisition. 

The church having a “lay ministry” is always a warm fuzzy feeling until you realize it doesn’t .  🙄

 

Six figure income in California is lower middle class darn are poverty level. That is certainly nothing to brag about or be jealous of.

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43 minutes ago, Wade Englund said:

Putting an even finer point on your salient comment, It would help people like @lostindc, @Tacenda, @SouthernMo, @Jeanne, @sunstoned and others to understand that the leaders of the Church, and the Church as a body, are bound by the law of consecration and associated covenant, which, in addition to the other laws and covenants, are ultimately designed to physically and spiritually benefit mankind--or said another way, aid humanity.

To understand this, perhaps it can be explained on a personal level, I am under the same law and covenant. Yet, I go to sleep at night. Well, the question may be asked, how is my sleeping benefiting mankind? There are a number of legitimate wisecracks that could be made. But, the answer is simple. I am not directly benefiting mankind by sleeping, but ultimately I am because it gives me much needed rest that will enable me to better serve mankind (physically and spiritually) during my waking hours.

Years ago I spent a lot of money purchasing a newish 4-Runner. People may ask, how is that aiding humanity? In a direct sense, it was used on numerous occasions to transport people in need, or to take things to people in need, or to take me to help people in need. Indirectly, it transported me to people and places and things that better enabled me to provide humanitarian aid (physical and spiritual).

It is useful to understand that aiding humanity isn't just in physically feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, educating the the ignorant, etc.. It also consists in feeding the spiritually hungry, clothing the spiritually naked, educating the spiritually ignorant, healing the spiritually sick, and raising the spiritually dead, etc.. 

This occurs not just through manning food lines at the soup kitchen, or bringing much needed material to hurricane disaster survivors, etc.  It happens in Sunday School classes, at General Conference, in the temples, through missionary work, family history, and the Ministering program, etc.

And, it isn't just about helping others. It is also about helping ourselves. By following Christ, and doing the charitable things he has done, we are changed from a fallen state to exaltation.

In short, in compliance of laws and covenats within the gospel, all that the Church does is ultimately dedicated to benefiting mankind and fulfilling the Father's merciful and elevating and exalting plan.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

You bring up a very, very good point. I do not disagree.

The problem for me comes in the specific application of how I (and the organizations I support - whether the church or the Kiwanis) spend money today.

This word you use “ultimately” has a very fair point in this conversation.  But, I am very, very weak. I will easily slip into using that word to excuse me giving less directly - today and now - to those in need.  I suspect I am not the only weak individual who excuses my lack of generosity today by leveraging the principle of trickle down economics, or some sort of nebulous dispersal of good affecting spirituality.

Again - do not mistake my response. I agree with the premise that humanitarianism should be viewed FAR wider than we traditionally view it. BUT, I fear that if we take that idea to an extreme, we will excuse ourselves from helping the one in need today.

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50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

On a related note I do get tired of the “What Would Jesus Do?” insinuations that get bandied about. Read your Bible. Jesus had the power to create bread. He could have ended hunger but when people followed him in pursuit of bread he tried to teach them that He had something more important then bread. “Your fathers ate manna in the wilderness and are dead.” Jesus could have spent his life alleviating temporal suffering and to some extent He did but that was not his primary goal. His goal was to give all of humanity eternal life and exaltation through His atonement and teaching others how to follow Him to find that gift. Jesus did not spend his whole ministry in a soup kitchen or on a Salvation Army well-digging project, as commendable as those things are they are not the primary goal of His Kingdom though when His Kingdom is here in its perfection it will also end hunger and want as a matter of course.

I really don’t think Jesus would have posted what you wrote.

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20 hours ago, USU78 said:

Someone.

Who?

A deranged hobo is my guess.

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11 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I really don’t think Jesus would have posted what you wrote.

Of course not. He would have been even harsher.

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33 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

How do they get this metric?

At the Last Day they get the final numbers. Until then we have to deal with estimates and just follow the divine guidance of those few beings who know the real impact of our actions and guide us accordingly.

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14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Heaps of online apostates and other critics. Have you not seen any of the spirited discussions about what the Church will be forced to do with its buildings as entire stakes implode, including selling temples off to be used as themed hotels, gambling halls, or even sets for certain kinds of films? It's an entire subgenre of fantasy literature.

Catholics said it wouldn't happen.  Some of the better restaurants in cities such as Pittsburgh are former Catholic churches.  

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Children of God going into exaltation.

So the success of the Church isn't provable, thus quantifiable in this life? 

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2 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Catholics said it wouldn't happen.  Some of the better restaurants in cities such as Pittsburgh are former Catholic churches.  

I think for the Church to sell a temple, as sacred as we consider them to be, one of two things would have to happen:

1)  Leaders would have to decide that the temple had reached its "end of life" in terms of the physical facility.  Meaning, it was no longer worth renovating/refurbishing to keep it in a usable and safe condition.  In this case, however, I believe that decision would be to demolish the temple and either rebuild or sell the land that it sat on.  I don't imagine that the Brethren would ever let a standing temple be converted into some other (lesser) use.

2)  The Church would have to fall into such an economic catastrophe that divesting itself of the majority of its assets was required.  I don't see that happening unless they are lying to us about not taking on debt (and I don't think they are lying to us!).  And if it did happen, properties that are not places of worship would be sold first, then meetinghouses, then (and only then) temples.

 

I'd give #1 above a small probability.

I don't believe for a moment that #2 would ever happen but I suppose there is some small possibility of it.

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21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't argue that there was an extermination order. However, I will argue that it wasn't carried out nor can it compare AT ALL to how Native Americans were treated by federal, state, and local governments. That bordered on genocide. Please don't try to hold up the LDS experience of persecution as being somehow greater than the Native experience because of a legal paper.

ETA: by "not carried out" I mean that the LDS were not exterminated, they were expatriated.

I believe they 'expatriated' themselves in order to avoid being exterminated.

That doesn't lessen the fact that it was issued and it's horrible that it happened to the Saints and to the Native Americans--they also 'expatriated' themselves a number of times to avoid being exterminated.

  ISTR, it was still on the books in Illinois until a couple of decades ago when they removed it.

 

 

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20 hours ago, sunstoned said:

The church has over 32 billion in the stock market.  They are the largest land owner in Florida.  They own multiple million dollar buildings.  Just when does the sustained and meaningful aid kick in?

The church's efforts at providing Humanitarian aid are ongoing and bless many daily and you are welcome to share some of your resources to help.  If you don't want to give to the church, find another organization to support.

 

And it's a good thing they have all that wealth, because that buys the church some protection and clout in this world against those who would like to see us gone.  As Pres. Harold B. Lee once said;  "Just remember this isn't 1830 and there aren't just six of us"...🙂

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8 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I believe they 'expatriated' themselves in order to avoid being exterminated.

That doesn't lessen the fact that it was issued and it's horrible that it happened to the Saints and to the Native Americans--they also 'expatriated' themselves a number of times to avoid being exterminated.

  ISTR, it was still on the books in Illinois until a couple of decades ago when they removed it.

 

 

Missouri  ;) 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Missouri  ;) 

Thanks for the correction.

I was confusing it with the other state we were driven out of...and lost our land.

Edited by alter idem

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1 hour ago, lostindc said:

So the success of the Church isn't provable, thus quantifiable in this life? 

“If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” -Paul

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16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Heaps of online apostates and other critics. Have you not seen any of the spirited discussions about what the Church will be forced to do with its buildings as entire stakes implode, including selling temples off to be used as themed hotels, gambling halls, or even sets for certain kinds of films? It's an entire subgenre of fantasy literature.

I have seen this. I am looking forward to the “Supper of the Great God” happening to them with equal anticipation.

 

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