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lostindc

The Church is potentially spending 129 million to purchase a London office building.  

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5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Sounds like it may even been an annual plan. I like it.

Those are just the ones I know about.  I imagine there are quite a few more that don't make the news.

There is also a lot of land that they buy for church/temple buildings and then don't end up using (or don't use all of it) so they sell or develop.

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This is going around...looks like Elder Anderson said the church aren't a wealthy people. https://www.mormonnewsroom.co.zw/article/elder-andersen-meets-with-zimbabwes-vice-president-mohadi-pledges-support

“We want to help in every way we can,” said Elder Andersen. “We are not a wealthy people but we are good people, and we share what we have,” he added.

 

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8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

There is also a lot of land that they buy for church/temple buildings and then don't end up using (or don't use all of it) so they sell or develop.

Again, a very prudent move. If they do build the meetinghouse or temple, they save on the cost of land. If they don't, they probably nearly always turn a profit.

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

“We are not a wealthy people but we are good people, and we share what we have,” he added.

That certainly describes the people in my ward.

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3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Again, a very prudent move. If they do build the meetinghouse or temple, they save on the cost of land. If they don't, they probably nearly always turn a profit.

I agree that it is prudent.  If you don't buy land early in developing areas, you're likely to have difficulty getting land for churches as members move into the area.

However, I wouldn't say that speculative land purchases "nearly always turn a profit".  In the case of the church, they are holding the land without debt so it is more likely than not that the land will increase in value.  But there is an opportunity cost associated with having funds tied up in land and there is also an expense in selling the land.  But going back to the first point... they don't have much of a choice if they want to be able to put church buildings close to members (and it seems that they do).

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I agree that it is prudent.  If you don't buy land early in developing areas, you're likely to have difficulty getting land for churches as members move into the area.

Where I served my mission in the US, the Church had decades earlier bought a prominent block of land. Local members assured us there would be a temple there someday. I scoffed. There is a temple there now. Buying in the 1960s or whenever must have saved a fortune -- though I acknowledge opportunity cost -- and allowed a temple to be built in a central location rather than on the fringes. I wish we'd done more of this in many places, but of course we've done probably all we could.

Quote

But going back to the first point... they don't have much of a choice if they want to be able to put church buildings close to members (and it seems that they do).

Yep. And thankfully Church leaders aren't paying any attention to all the predictions that there will be no need for future buildings.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That certainly describes the people in my ward.

Thanks Hamba, this made me remember the times that leaders have always said it came from the members of the church, these donations. At first when I read Elder Anderson's statement it seemed bizarre to me, since the church has billions. But then I do remember the statements from the leaders that it's from their members. So I do have to ask, does the church use any monies from the corporate earnings for humanitarian donations? 

 

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6 hours ago, lostindc said:

The Church is potentially spending 129 million to purchase a London office building.  How much does the Church spend in humanitarian aid each year?  

We don´t know ¨how much¨,

5 hours ago, Wade Englund said:

Everything the Church does is ultimately humanitarian aid--temporally as well as spiritually. 

Why do you ask?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

We don´t know anywhere near ¨everything¨,

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Don't know but its a one time purchase.  Its not like the church does this every year.

We don´t know what ¨the church does...every year¨,

4 hours ago, rpn said:

I will never understand the argument in the OP.   Doesn't anyone know that in order to have funds to build things, do humanitarian things, you need regular and substantial and diversified sources of revenue?    The church invests (and tries to do it responsibly and cautiously).   So that creates or supports jobs, in those communities and allows the church the flexibility to do what God wants for His children.   That is good stewardship, not anything negative.

We don´t know what it does, whether it is trying or not,

4 hours ago, filovirus said:

Spending money on one thing does not preclude the ability to spend money on another thing. A perceived disparity is just that: perceived. We have no idea how much the church spends on humanitarian aid each year. Between the Bishop's storehouse, paying for members bills as needed, responding to disaster relief, and donations to charitable organizations, I'm guessing it is quite a bit.

And more and more...

I don´t understand why people try to hammer out this issue as long as the LDS Church does not fully report its financials to its members. It´s all just ¨perceived¨ disparity or parity, ¨perceived¨ irresponsibility or responsibility, greed or stewardship - it´s all nothing more than perceived. We truly have no chance until there is transparency.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So I do have to ask, does the church use any monies from the corporate earnings for humanitarian donations? 

My strong suspicion is that every single facet of the Church's operations is probably 'subisdised' by its investments. I could be wrong about that, but we know already that many are. I'd like to see that capacity grow exponentially.

At a minimum, when members no longer need to raise thousands of dollars every year just to pay for their chapel's sewage connection, it certainly increases their capacity to engage in humanitarian efforts, and not just those administered by the Church. For example, one of our ward members is currently raising funds for a charity that provides emergency food relief to Syrian refugees in Jordan. She posted this to our ward Facebook page, and donations are already flowing in.

We are, without competition, the poorest ward in our stake. I've seen the tithing stats, and I know how many of our members live in public housing. But like Elder Anderson said, though we are not a wealthy people, we are generous, and our wise leaders have done everything they could to increase our capacity to be even more generous in our individual circumstances.

Inidividual contributions and efforts, voluntarily given, grow individuals and families and congregations in ways that more institutional giving never can.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan

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4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

If my poor memory serves there were saints murdered as a result of the Extermination Order, Haun's Mill Massacre comes to mind. The term extermination is effective for even one person killed in response to the Order. 


¨These pre-attack plans indicate the assault on the settlement was hatched days ahead of time, too soon for it to have resulted from the Extermination Order issued by Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs...¨

https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-insights-and-interpretations-of-hawns-mill-massacre?lang=eng&_r=1

¨Lilburn W. Boggs, Governor of Missouri, issued the exterminationorder on Oct. 27, 1838 stating that all Mormons must remove from the state or be exterminated. According to Alex Baugh, apparently the militia got word of the extermination order on Oct. 31st - the day after the attack.¨
http://www.heartsoffarwest.com/hawns-mill.html

And evidence for and against on Wikipedia.

 

Note: There´s actually an impressive number of parallels between Hawn´s Mill and Mountain Meadows that were presented in a compassionate-to-all article on a website that I can´t link to here. One of these parallels was the acting of the perpetrators without orders from superiors. Message me if you would like the url (I think that does not break the board rules).

Edited by Joshua Valentine
Note added
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1 hour ago, Joshua Valentine said:

👎

(no other option for a ¨dislike¨)

Why?  Please explain.

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33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Where I served my mission in the US, the Church had decades earlier bought a prominent block of land. Local members assured us there would be a temple there someday. I scoffed. There is a temple there now. Buying in the 1960s or whenever must have saved a fortune -- though I acknowledge opportunity cost -- and allowed a temple to be built in a central location rather than on the fringes. I wish we'd done more of this in many places, but of course we've done probably all we could.

Yep. And thankfully Church leaders aren't paying any attention to all the predictions that there will be no need for future buildings.

Who is predicting that there won’t be a need for future buildings?  That’s kinda crazy. 

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1 hour ago, Joshua Valentine said:

👎

(no other option for a ¨dislike¨)

 

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Why?  Please explain.

I don´t know why there is not an option to give a dislike as well as a like. Explanation would have to come from the mods.



🤣
I´ll give some reasons later.😉

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Posted (edited)

Oh look, another hand-wringing thread over the Church buying and/or developing property when that money could have been dumped out of a plane on indigent Somali peasants.

Edited by The Nehor
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35 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

Currently the 3rd floor is listed as having 13,340 sq/ft.  Leasing at 65 pounds per.

Looks like there are maybe 5 floors?   That comes to a potential revenue of 3 to 4 million per month.

 

 

Assuming they have the cash, cash flow, and business plan, and I suspect they do; then I don't have an issue with them doing this. 

 

 

Is the lease rate 65 pounds per SF per year or per month?  In the US, that would typically be listed at $ per SF year. 

Based on your numbers, you’d be looking at about $4 million pounds per year. 

But I don’t know how European leases work. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Joshua Valentine said:

 

I don´t know why there is not an option to give a dislike as well as a like. Explanation would have to come from the mods.



🤣
I´ll give some reasons later.😉

Ohh from the mods?  Why not you?  You're the one who gave me the thumbs down, would love to hear why. 

Edit, my bad, re-read that, no hostility intended.  Please take your time with your reasons.  I do try to be understanding and will happily admit when I'm wrong.

Edited by poptart

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Instead of putting Coke Machines in the building to generate revenue maybe they should put English Muffin machines in, they would sell out!

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1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My strong suspicion is that every single facet of the Church's operations is probably 'subisdised' by its investments. I could be wrong about that, but we know already that many are. I'd like to see that capacity grow exponentially.

At a minimum, when members no longer need to raise thousands of dollars every year just to pay for their chapel's sewage connection, it certainly increases their capacity to engage in humanitarian efforts, and not just those administered by the Church. For example, one of our ward members is currently raising funds for a charity that provides emergency food relief to Syrian refugees in Jordan. She posted this to our ward Facebook page, and donations are already flowing in.

We are, without competition, the poorest ward in our stake. I've seen the tithing stats, and I know how many of our members live in public housing. But like Elder Anderson said, though we are not a wealthy people, we are generous, and our wise leaders have done everything they could to increase our capacity to be even more generous in our individual circumstances.

Inidividual contributions and efforts, voluntarily given, grow individuals and families and congregations in ways that more institutional giving never can.

I now get what he was saying. Thanks :)

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6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't argue that there was an extermination order. However, I will argue that it wasn't carried out nor can it compare AT ALL to how Native Americans were treated by federal, state, and local governments. That bordered on genocide. Please don't try to hold up the LDS experience of persecution as being somehow greater than the Native experience because of a legal paper.

ETA: by "not carried out" I mean that the LDS were not exterminated, they were expatriated.

For sure. It's just like when critics claim Mountain Meadows to be greatest massacre in American history and conveniently ignore the many massacres by the federal government upom the Native Indians.

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8 minutes ago, jpv said:

I used to have a huge issue with this kind of thing. City Creek, etc.  Excommunicated historian D. Michael Quinn changed my opinion with his latest book.  Listen to this interview.  He really helped me see it from a faithful perspective. 

https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/mormon-wealth-and-corporate-power

Yes, Quinn was excommunicated but he is still very much a believer with a strong testimony of the restored church. 

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5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

“With eyes to see” This is often a term used Mormons use to make themselves feel superior to others.  Do you feel superior to me?  Are you smarter, wiser, more spiritual?

It isn't a matter of superiority or greater wisdom and intelligence. Rather, it is a matter of humility.

5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Im guessing you cannot in specifics define how everything is “ultimately” humanitarian aid.  Unless, we accept that all economics are helpful to humans.  Is that your position?  Any money spent will help people and thus can fall into humanitarian efforts?

Your getting warmer. Try thinking beyond just spending, to also return on investment. Please consider as well the spiritual as well as the physical. The 4-fold mission of the church ought to give you an immense clue.

Thanks -Wade Englund-

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