let’s roll Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 19 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: More importantly, one of the things I've learnt is that heaven is available in the here and now. We can be surrounded by everything that might go away in any future cleansing and still be filled with immeasurable peace and unspeakable joy. We can have the angels as our companions. Amen. Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Just for the sake of accuracy, Latter-day Saint belief is that the earth will be cleansed of the wicked at the Lord's coming, i.e. those with telestial behaviour. This leaves all good and honourable people, most of whom will not be of our faith. More importantly, one of the things I've learnt is that heaven is available in the here and now. We can be surrounded by everything that might go away in any future cleansing and still be filled with immeasurable peace and unspeakable joy. We can have the angels as our companions. I see. I’ve been taught that the Telestial Kingdom is for those who reject Christ as the Savior. So just all the Jews, Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and many others will be burned? Still. Sounds horrible. So hard to be part of a faith with such a violent god. Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: So just all the Jews, Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and many others will be burned? And the poor Pastafarians, too... Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: And the poor Pastafarians, too... Yup. God hates gluten. 1 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I’ve been taught that the Telestial Kingdom is for those who reject Christ as the Savior. You've been taught wrong. Read D&C 76 and Gospel Principles. Quote So hard to be part of a faith with such a violent god. I recommend you get to know Him better. He's a pretty decent bloke. 3 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You've been taught wrong. Read D&C 76 and Gospel Principles. I recommend you get to know Him better. He's a pretty decent bloke. I don’t see it in D&C 76. Verse 82 indicates that those who are telestial: These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. Lots of burning going on for anyone who isn’t Christian, it seems. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Lots of burning going on for anyone who isn’t Christian, it seems. From Gospel Principles: Quote Because of the destruction of the wicked at the Savior’s Second Coming, only righteous people will live on the earth at the beginning of the Millennium. They will be those who have lived virtuous and honest lives. These people will inherit either the terrestrial or celestial kingdom. During the Millennium, mortals will still live on earth, and they will continue to have children as we do now (see D&C 45:58). Joseph Smith said that immortal beings will frequently visit the earth. These resurrected beings will help with the government and other work. (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 268.) People will still have their agency, and for a time many will be free to continue with their religions and ideas. Eventually everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is the Savior. And from the June 2014 New Era: Quote Those remaining on the earth during the Millennium will be the good people of the earth—those who were righteous and just, regardless of their religion. This includes those who will be on the earth at the time of the Second Coming as well as those who will be resurrected at that time and other times throughout the Millennium. The wicked will not remain on the earth and will not be resurrected until after the Millennium. So, what will people do during these 1,000 years? We know that a main focus will be to continue the work of salvation—helping people come unto Christ. Church members will share the gospel with those remaining who have not received it in its fulness. Edited May 2, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan 2 Link to comment
let’s roll Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I don’t see it in D&C 76. Verse 82 indicates that those who are telestial: These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. Lots of burning going on for anyone who isn’t Christian, it seems. Not sure why you would believe that’s necessarily true. Conversion means exactly that...change. We’ll all have ample opportunities to do so. And if you want to focus on a scripture regarding judgments, I invite you to consider the promise in the BofM that ALL of us will agree that ALL of God’s judgments with respect to ALL of His children are just. That promise should quell any misgivings you have about God's judgments and the fairness regarding the fate of each of His children. 1 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: From Gospel Principles: And from the June 2014 New Era: Thanks for sharing the manual and magazine article. Should we trust their validity and truth above that of The Doctrine and Covenants? Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Just now, SouthernMo said: Thanks for sharing the manual and magazine article. Should we trust their validity and truth above that of The Doctrine and Covenants? If I had time, I could add dozens of pages of teachings from Latter-day prophets on the same matter. There is no conflict in doctrine inherent in any of this. D&C clearly defines telestial behaviour. Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Not sure why you would believe that’s necessarily true. Conversion means exactly that...change. We’ll all have ample opportunities to do so. And if you want to focus on a scripture regarding judgments, I invite you to consider the promise in the BofM that ALL of us will agree that ALL of God’s judgments with respect to ALL of His children are just. That promise should quell any misgivings you have about God's judgments and the fairness regarding the fate of each of His children. That’s fair. Right now I’m focusing on the specific LDS teaching that when Christ comes again, those who don’t know of Him or accept Him as the Messiah will be burned. Trying to understand it and get an accurate picture of what to expect. Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Just now, Hamba Tuhan said: If I had time, I could add dozens of pages of teachings from Latter-day prophets on the same matter. There is no conflict in doctrine inherent in any of this. D&C clearly defines telestial behaviour. Right. D&C 76:82 clearly indicates that those who don’t know of or follow Christ are telestial. Then, as mentioned, when Christ comes, LDS teaching is that they will burn. What am I missing? Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: Then, as mentioned, when Christ comes, LDS teaching is that they will burn. What am I missing? That this is not 'LDS teaching'? Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: That this is not 'LDS teaching'? So when Christ comes to renew the earth to its “paradisiacal glory”, people from all kingdoms can be there? Paradise includes all kingdoms? Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: So when Christ comes to renew the earth to its “paradisiacal glory”, people from all kingdoms can be there? Paradise includes all kingdoms? I once again quote Gospel Principles, this time with added emphasis: Quote Because of the destruction of the wicked at the Savior’s Second Coming, only righteous people will live on the earth at the beginning of the Millennium. They will be those who have lived virtuous and honest lives. These people will inherit either the terrestrial or celestial kingdom. Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I once again quote Gospel Principles, this time with added emphasis: We seem to keep missing each other. Your reference to quell my concern over the treatment of those inheriting the telestial kingdom only addresses those inheriting the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. What am I missing? Link to comment
The Nehor Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 2 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Jesus with a flame thrower taking out all those uncelestial tea drinkers? Have a hard time seeing joy in this... Nah, the Word of Wisdom only applies to those in the church. It says so in the section in which it was given. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Just for the sake of accuracy, Latter-day Saint belief is that the earth will be cleansed of the wicked at the Lord's coming, i.e. those with telestial behaviour. This leaves all good and honourable people, most of whom will not be of our faith. More importantly, one of the things I've learnt is that heaven is available in the here and now. We can be surrounded by everything that might go away in any future cleansing and still be filled with immeasurable peace and unspeakable joy. We can have the angels as our companions. I disagree. While I believe there is happiness to be found even in adversity I do not believe it compares to that of heaven. It is a taste of it but not the whole banquet. 2 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 On 4/29/2019 at 2:25 PM, MiserereNobis said: I don't argue that there was an extermination order. However, I will argue that it wasn't carried out nor can it compare AT ALL to how Native Americans were treated by federal, state, and local governments. That bordered on genocide. Please don't try to hold up the LDS experience of persecution as being somehow greater than the Native experience because of a legal paper. ETA: by "not carried out" I mean that the LDS were not exterminated, they were expatriated. The LDS in Cane Creek, Tennessee, were expelled, four were killed, and their homes, chapel, and businesses were burned in the early 1880s. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: Your reference to quell my concern over the treatment of those inheriting the telestial kingdom only addresses those inheriting the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. I'm not trying to 'quell your concerns' at all. You seem to not want God to ever change the location of any of His children for any reason. That's like wanting parental assurance that no one will ever be put in timeout or sent to another room. I'm not sure anyone can help you with that concern. I've just been trying to correct your misconception that Latter-day Saint belief is that all non-Christians will be removed from the earth at Christ's coming. The Millennial earth will be filled with good and virtuous Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, animists, Buddhists, Jains, atheists, agnostics and others. Over time, these people will all accept Jesus Christ, which shouldn't surprise us. Mercifully, the wicked will get this same opportunity in their temporary hell as well. And if they embrace it, they too will be redeemed to a kingdom of glory, cleansed from all unrighteousness. It's a beautiful plan. Edited May 2, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan 2 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: While I believe there is happiness to be found even in adversity I do not believe it compares to that of heaven. It is a taste of it but not the whole banquet. Of course there is more to come, but the fruits of the Restored Gospel are very much available in the here and now. Otherwise, how would we know (a) that what we have is desirable or real and (b) what kinds of things to expect in future? Moreover, the Book of Mormon makes it especially clear that one can't just endure this life with gritted teeth and expect a complete 180-degree change: 'And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that ... he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still'. Edited May 2, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan Link to comment
Wade Englund Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 4 hours ago, sunstoned said: So do I. But you are too nice of a guy to argue with. Your uncommon graciousness renders arguing pointless, if not impossible, leaving me speechless. [thumbs up] Thanks, -Wade Englund- Link to comment
The Nehor Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Of course there is more to come, but the fruits of the Restored Gospel are very much available in the here and now. Otherwise, how would we know (a) that what we have is desirable or real and (b) what kinds of things to expect in future? Moreover, the Book of Mormon makes it especially clear that one can't just endure this life with gritted teeth and expect a complete 180-degree change: 'And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that ... he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still'. Oh, well that is disappointing. Time to chuck the whole thing I guess. Link to comment
Wade Englund Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 3 hours ago, SouthernMo said: So hard to be part of a faith with such a violent god. If you understood correctly, you would realize that the violence is in the sinning of men and the just consequences therefrom. The God of our faith is merciful, having suffered unspeakable violence as a consequence of man, and He wishes to save us from our sinful and violent selves, though He can't do so against our will. In other words, you have it precisely backwards. Thanks, -Wade Englund- Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Time to chuck the whole thing I guess. A course I certainly wouldn't recommend. But you already knew that. Link to comment
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