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blueglass

youth sunday school and gospel topics essays

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31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes. I would let you bishop know also.

I'm trying to think of how to tactfully do this, as in the last ward the mission home was in our ward and we knew the mission president personally and had he and his wife over for dinner a number of times.  It's different here.  I don't want to come across as a nanny "hey your missionaries are out of line - you've got to corral these kids" as they probably get a lot of these calls by concerned members.  Then again maybe he will appreciate a quick call and some observations.   

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31 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I was at a Q&A in Calgary Alberta, President Hinckley (First Counselor at that time) at a Priesthood meeting 16 and up said he decided not to speak but to take questions instead.  There were at least a thousand men and the big question I remember is why there was not a Temple closer than Cardston to Calgary.  If the big question of the youth really was the Priesthood ban I fear for their future enjoyment of the Gospel.

I get what you are saying here, but I suspect the fact that they were talking to the First Counselor probably hedged their openness a bit.

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Posted (edited)

duplicate - erase

Edited by blueglass

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1 hour ago, changed said:

..." The most significant distinction between the pseudo-relativism of position 4 and the contextual relativism of position 5 is the self-consciousness of being an active maker of meaning...." - http://perrynetwork.org/?page_id=2 

 

In spanish we say "cada cabeza es un mundo" or each mind is a world unto itself.  self consciousness enlightened to watch our own neural code operating from outside seems difficult to do as it requires modeling many minds we find interesting to gain heightened introspection.

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14 minutes ago, blueglass said:

I'm trying to think of how to tactfully do this, as in the last ward the mission home was in our ward and we knew the mission president personally and had he and his wife over for dinner a number of times.  It's different here.  I don't want to come across as a nanny "hey your missionaries are out of line - you've got to corral these kids" as they probably get a lot of these calls by concerned members.  Then again maybe he will appreciate a quick call and some observations.   

I would go with the quick call and observations. Just start with ¨my daughter was in class that Sunday and the missionaries...¨. You could start or finish with something along the lines of ¨we were concerned and just wanted to let you know (long pause for his resonse)¨. Whoever the mission president is, they should be grateful for the info, especially if you avoid extensive descriptions of how it upset your family or otherwise come off as accusing or attacking his effectiveness. If you do avoid such and he still reacts ungraciously, that´s on him.

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7 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

I get what you are saying here, but I suspect the fact that they were talking to the First Counselor probably hedged their openness a bit.

Yeah when I was 15 - 17 years old I said a lot of stuff just to get a reaction from the adults.  Most of what I said meant little to myself.

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6 hours ago, blueglass said:

True - these were the answers, but explanations will not die easily, and new justifications emerge in the vacuum created by the "we don't know why" era recently resurrected by surreptitious editors in the June 2018 ensign.  Many scholars publicly panned the ensign articles that month.  Professor Marcus Martins calls upon the church to kill these pseudo-doctrines which still pervade our culture, and I quite frankly would like to turn the page on this history and move on - yet it still pops up in Sunday school to reopen old wounds. 

Here was the response by the church to Professor's Bott's (Professor of religion teaching Mission Prep at BYU) statements to the press:

"The positions attributed to BYU professor Randy Bott in a recent Washington Post article absolutely do not represent the teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,”  https://universe.byu.edu/2012/02/29/professor-didnt-follow-university-media-policy-when-speaking-with-washington-post/

BYU University Communications also released a statement yesterday.

“The comments attributed to Professor Bott do not reflect the teachings in the classroom at Brigham Young University,” said Dean of Religious Education Terry Ball.

Professor Bott was thrown under the bus by both the church and BYU.  True, he was not authorized to speak for the church, and he should have deferred those questions to the proper spokesperson.  But what he said was indeed taught by church leaders for generations.  It was the same stuff I heard as a kid in Sunday School.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Professor Bott was thrown under the bus by both the church and BYU.  True, he was not authorized to speak for the church, and he should have deferred those questions to the proper spokesperson.  But what he said was indeed taught by church leaders for generations.  It was the same stuff I heard as a kid in Sunday School.

I don’t know how old you are, but I would venture to say there was little or no Church Correlation in place back then. Much of what has had to be disavowed in recent times with respect to blacks and the priesthood is attributable to the lack of correlation in the past. 

As the saying goes, the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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11 hours ago, blueglass said:

I'm trying to think of how to tactfully do this, as in the last ward the mission home was in our ward and we knew the mission president personally and had he and his wife over for dinner a number of times.  It's different here.  I don't want to come across as a nanny "hey your missionaries are out of line - you've got to corral these kids" as they probably get a lot of these calls by concerned members.  Then again maybe he will appreciate a quick call and some observations.   

I think he will appreciate it, especially if you simply describe what happened without mentioning the "out of line" part (he will draw that conclusion himself). It affected your daughter and friend so you are right to bring it up. Good luck!

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14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The “ask me anything” approach taken by these young missionaries was prideful and ill-advised. They could scarcely have been better prepared for it than the teens they were purporting to teach. 

They would have done better on the spur of the moment to have read aloud the scheduled lesson from the “Come Follow Me” manual, posed the appropriate questions to the youth and invited them to respond accordingly, adding their own thoughts as inspired by the Spirit. 

Or, they could have given the youth one of the lessons they as missionaries give to investigators. 

While I agree, I don't think the missionaries can be blamed for being prideful. Missionaries are taught that they are special ministers called to preach the word of God by the spirit. By the spirit words can be put in their mouth to the convincing of all nations. The spirit will direct their teachings and will confirm the truth of all things.

IMO missionaries are trained to be prideful and arrogant. They are taught that they are emissaries of Jesus Christ, preaching with power and authority.

I've known a lot of missionaries. I was a missionary. I had an extremely painful discussion with missionaries just last week. I know better. But it's hard to blame missionaries for believing the hype about missionaries. In many cases, it's the only thing that gives them enough confidence to open their mouths at all.

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To be fair, I’m not sure regurgitating the official church position that the early prophets were bigots and taught false doctrine about black people would have left a better impression on the friend than the missionary’s  bad analogies did. 

Sometimes there are no good answers for bad events. The mistake here was inviting questions about those events. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The “ask me anything” approach taken by these young missionaries was prideful and ill-advised. They could scarcely have been better prepared for it than the teens they were purporting to teach. 

They would have done better on the spur of the moment to have read aloud the scheduled lesson from the “Come Follow Me” manual, posed the appropriate questions to the youth and invited them to respond accordingly, adding their own thoughts as inspired by the Spirit. 

Or, they could have given the youth one of the lessons they as missionaries give to investigators. 

You can get your sentences under 5 1/2 lines if you try. 

Edited by 10THAmendment
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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2019 at 9:32 PM, blueglass said:
  • How can we better prepare missionaries to not miss the mark, and to better prepare for teaching opportunities?  

Something that could help many missionaries, especially now that they are entering the field younger, would be to emphasize that it's okay to admit they don't know everything and that it is better for them to say something like, "I'm not certain. I'll need to look into that and get back with you" than it is to just make something up. I know this was something I was taught as a missionary - though I saw plenty of instances where that guidance didn't stick. 

 

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  • what can we do in teaching situations when classes go off the rails? 

It depends. Sometimes ignoring an 'out there' comment is the best course. Sometimes humor and deflection allow you to gently move things in a different direction. But sometimes you've got to just take the bull by the horns and get things back on track by any means necessary. 

 

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  • Where do we go for better answers to the questions our older youth have?  - youth which were inoculated early, but have lost trust in leadership?  

The same places where we go for answers ourselves. My kids see me reading the scriptures regularly, but they see me reading things like Rough Stone Rolling as well. There is lots of good information about the church - even for difficult questions. 

 

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  • How are we training our young Elders and Sister missionaries on utilizing the gospel topics essays?  Do they really read and understand them?  

Doubtful. Then again, I don't know that an understanding of the gospel topic essays is necessary in order for one to be an effective missionary. 

 

Edited by Amulek
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22 hours ago, blueglass said:

What answers have you given in the past for these two questions?  For the first question the elders stood by their view that God's revelations were at play in banning blacks from temples and priesthood blessings.  For the second question on changing policies regarding lgbtq and increased fatigue in trusting leadership on these issues?  

Not really my style to give “answers”...answers should be sought from, and given by, Deity.  

That doesn’t mean I won’t discuss issues.  I find it helpful to ask lots of follow-up question to identity the thoughts that underpin the original question which then point to principles and invitations. 

For example re the first question raised, I might have asked, why do you think your friend asked you the question?  Do they believe in God?  Did the question imply to you that they believed that was something God would never do?  What do the scriptures say about access to the temple and priesthood in OT and NT times?  Do you think God makes mistakes?  Do you believe God will answer your questions? What has God taught regarding how we can best prepare to receive His wisdom?...

Or I might have asked, why do you think there are so many different opinions on topics like this?  With so many different opinions about things in the world, what do you think will happen that will enable God’s promise that each and every one of His children will AGREE that each and every one of His judgments regarding every single one of us is just/fair/correct?

Along the way, I anticipate I’d be prompted to testify of a principle or two and extend some invitations.

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5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

While I agree, I don't think the missionaries can be blamed for being prideful. Missionaries are taught that they are special ministers called to preach the word of God by the spirit. By the spirit words can be put in their mouth to the convincing of all nations. The spirit will direct their teachings and will confirm the truth of all things.

IMO missionaries are trained to be prideful and arrogant. They are taught that they are emissaries of Jesus Christ, preaching with power and authority.

I've known a lot of missionaries. I was a missionary. I had an extremely painful discussion with missionaries just last week. I know better. But it's hard to blame missionaries for believing the hype about missionaries. In many cases, it's the only thing that gives them enough confidence to open their mouths at all.

I quite disagree that missionaries are trained to be prideful. My observation has been the opposite. 

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On 4/27/2019 at 10:57 PM, let’s roll said:

I’m curious what folks would consider as good, better, best level responses to the two questions posed during the class.

How I answer these (and everyone can chime in with how they view it)

Blacks and the priesthood - As a female, I am currently not ordained to the priesthood, so I can commiserate a little.  I fall back on scriptures such as "the greatest among you are your servants", and God's ways are not our ways.  There is a story I tell my daughters - sleeping beauty - how Aurora was raised as a peasant, not knowing who she was - then after becoming queen ruled with love justice and humility because of the wisdom gained living as a peasant.  It's fun to add and ham up old fairy tale stories - turn Aurora into a political activist who rebels against the unjust taxation and lack of representation within the monarchy prior to learning she was born into nobility herself etc. etc.

LGBTQ - I have had this conversation with relatives in same sex marriages.  I say Christianity is a religion of sacrifices - from Abraham to the atonement.  In tandem with Catholicism's celibacy requirements for priests and nuns, many Christians sacrifice familial relationships as one of the requirements for discipleship.  That said, most Catholics are not celibate.  Most individual sacrifices are very personal and unique, and my personal beliefs support respecting the free agency of others and suggesting nothing more to anyone above following their own conscience after prayer and study.

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On 4/27/2019 at 8:32 PM, blueglass said:

A boy - a senior in HS was asked by a friend at school why black members of the church were not offered the same blessings of the priesthood at the same time as other members.  How should we answer a question like this?  the missionary started answering this question by presenting the analogy of giving a 4 year old a chainsaw. He said you don’t give them a real chainsaw because they “would probably kill themselves because they don’t know how to properly handle it.” 
my daughter asked if he was actually comparing black members to 4 year-olds? Elder backs off and recoils and says he didn't mean it like that.  The young elder then tried another approach and went on to tell the story of Moses - how Moses first received the higher Melchizedek priesthood commandments, but when he came down the mountain, he saw that they were worshiping the golden calf, so subsequently he broke the higher law tablets, and gave them the lower commandments for the Aaronic priesthood because the Israelites were not ready. The young elder 14months of experience on the mission said that God gives the priesthood to people who he trusts and that we can always trust the prophets to do the right thing because it truly was a revelation from God [to not give blacks priesthood, temple blessings, or sealings]. 

Until the Brethren teach church membership that the the race-based temple and priesthood ban was a mistake, we will continue to get all kinds of explanations to justify it.  What else can we expect?  As long as it is held up as something that God wanted, our faithful and believing brains will seek explanations so that belief in prophetic leadership can be maintained.

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Until the Brethren teach church membership that the the race-based temple and priesthood ban was a mistake, we will continue to get all kinds of explanations to justify it.  What else can we expect?  As long as it is held up as something that God wanted, our faithful and believing brains will seek explanations so that belief in prophetic leadership can be maintained.

Or we could explain that since all who die before the age of accountability inherit the Celestial Kingdom, and because  Africa and Asian populations and infant mortality rates will result in a disproportionate number of our African and Asian brothers and sisters (billions in total) inhabiting the Celestial Kingdom when compared to Anglos, perhaps we Anglos were in need of a small leg up in the spiritual repitrage we call mortality so we’ll be at least a slightly larger tiny minority in the Celestial Kingdom.  Think of it as a bit of spiritual affirmative action.  The numbers certainly point to why it might be needed.   Just a thought. 🙂

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35 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Or we could explain that since all who die before the age of accountability inherit the Celestial Kingdom, and because  Africa and Asian populations and infant mortality rates will result in a disproportionate number of our African and Asian brothers and sisters (billions in total) inhabiting the Celestial Kingdom when compared to Anglos, perhaps we Anglos were in need of a small leg up in the spiritual repitrage we call mortality so we’ll be at least a slightly larger tiny minority in the Celestial Kingdom.  Think of it as a bit of spiritual affirmative action.  The numbers certainly point to why it might be needed.   Just a thought. 🙂

A little bit like the patronizing justification for polygamy:  more women than men in the CK. :)

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17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know how old you are, but I would venture to say there was little or no Church Correlation in place back then. Much of what has had to be disavowed in recent times with respect to blacks and the priesthood is attributable to the lack of correlation in the past. 

As the saying goes, the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. 

You bring up good points.  The fact remains that for whatever reason the stuff that he made public in the interview was not made up from whole cloth.  It was preached over the pulpit.   However, he was incredibly naive and uninformed to believe that stuff after the essays came out.  

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

You bring up good points.  The fact remains that for whatever reason the stuff that he made public in the interview was not made up from whole cloth.  It was preached over the pulpit.   However, he was incredibly naive and uninformed to believe that stuff after the essays came out.  

I thought the Bott interview was before that essay was released.

it seemed to me that Bott was just repeating what had been taught over the pulpit and through official church publications.  He is certainly not to blame.

I disagree that a lack of correlation is the problem.  Prophets who teach things that we later determine to be false is the heart of the issue.

Edited by rockpond
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38 minutes ago, rockpond said:

A little bit like the patronizing justification for polygamy:  more women than men in the CK. :)

Do you have any issue with the numbers?  Rough math...15 BILLION is a conservative estimate.  

 It’s always been puzzling to me that with the variety of gospel related issue that folks choose to analyze, debate and speculate on, you rarely see any discussion regarding the fact that far more of God’s children qualified for the Celestial Kingdom in our premortal life than it appears will qualify in mortality...hence my somewhat TIC characterization of mortality as spiritual repitrage.

I find it fascinating and thought provoking.

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3 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Do you have any issue with the numbers?  Rough math...15 BILLION is a conservative estimate.  

 It’s always been puzzling to me that with the variety of gospel related issue that folks choose to analyze, debate and speculate on, you rarely see any discussion regarding the fact that far more of God’s children qualified for the Celestial Kingdom in our premortal life than it appears will qualify in mortality...hence my somewhat TIC characterization of mortality as spiritual repitrage.

I find it fascinating and thought provoking.

It is fascinating and thought provoking (and adds to the numerical problem with temple work at our current rate).

I don't have an issue with the numbers, I just don't think the Lord was wanting spiritual affirmative action.

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9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I thought the Bott interview was before that essay was released.

it seemed to me that Bott was just repeating what had been taught over the pulpit and through official church publications.  He is certainly not to blame.

I disagree that a lack of correlation is the problem.  Prophets who teach things that we later determine to be false is the heart of the issue.

You are probably right.  My timeline might be messed up.

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15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It is fascinating and thought provoking (and adds to the numerical problem with temple work at our current rate).

I don't have an issue with the numbers, I just don't think the Lord was wanting spiritual affirmative action.

I’m not sure what you mean by the first comment.  My understanding is that those 15 billion not only have no need for baptism, but no need for any other ordinance, so no temple work needed...they’re in.

I agree with your second comment, although I’d suggest that my TIC explanation makes more sense than some I’ve heard which were not TIC. 

 

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