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MustardSeed

The Cross

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

When it first came out a few years ago I really wanted to see it, until everyone was saying how Mel made it as real as possible and it was very bloody. But I did make it through it today and was fine. It was good for me to watch something to do with the Saviour especially when I didn't attend Sacrament or any other church service. 

Sounds like a worthwhile experience.

I decided not to watch it or similar depictions (even by the Church) because I don't want to set in my mind someone else's experience of the Crucifixion or other experiences in Christ's life.  It is similar to how I am avoiding the movies based on the Tolkien books, but for much more serious reasons (just saw the first Tolkien movie once in the theatre, since then leave the room quickly if my family is indulging in them again).  But I know a lot of people find watching others' visualizations quite helpful, so I don't argue against it (except that they changed way too many things from the Tolkien books from what I saw and have heard about the later ones and that is sacrilege!).

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Sounds like a worthwhile experience.

I decided not to watch it or similar depictions (even by the Church) because I don't want to set in my mind someone else's experience of the Crucifixion or other experiences in Christ's life.  It is similar to how I am avoiding the movies based on the Tolkien books, but for much more serious reasons (just saw the first Tolkien movie once in the theatre, since then leave the room quickly if my family is indulging in them again).  But I know a lot of people find watching others' visualizations quite helpful, so I don't argue against it (except that they changed way too many things from the Tolkien books from what I saw and have heard about the later ones and that is sacrilege!).

Tom Bombadil.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Calm said:

Sounds like a worthwhile experience.

I decided not to watch it or similar depictions (even by the Church) because I don't want to set in my mind someone else's experience of the Crucifixion or other experiences in Christ's life.  It is similar to how I am avoiding the movies based on the Tolkien books, but for much more serious reasons (just saw the first Tolkien movie once in the theatre, since then leave the room quickly if my family is indulging in them again).  But I know a lot of people find watching others' visualizations quite helpful, so I don't argue against it (except that they changed way too many things from the Tolkien books from what I saw and have heard about the later ones and that is sacrilege!).

I agree. When I view such things, I always do so with the thought, “This is a movie based on some things taken from a book by Xxxx. I will enjoy and judge it by its own merits.” Thus I am able to appreciate both the movie and the book for what they are and preserve the awe I felt creating the world of the book in my mind while I read it. I can only think of a handful of movies that successfully navigated those waters for me. When I first saw the “The Hobbit” movies, I was quite irritated by the  disrespect for the book and the license taken, but thinking of them this way helped me see them as pretty good fantasy flicks very loosely based on a few of Tolkein’s ideas.

I just came off of two performances of the LDS Easter oratorio “Lamb of God.”  I am somewhat conflicted personally by dramatic or musical recreations of sacred events. I think there is a fine line between emotional and spiritual experiences. The former can be easily manipulated by compositional and performance techniques. They can intentionally mimic the latter. The latter come unforced like the cool breezes on a Spring day. 

 On the other hand, I appreciate the truly inspiring feelings they engender in the participants and audience. I believe such efforts please Heavenly Father who gave us these artistic gifts in order to bring greater peace and joy into our lives; however, I believe true revelatory experiences are an order of magnitude greater. 

I feel uncomfortable and unsatisfied with most any visual portrayals of the Lord except one...the portraits of Christ by Rembrandt. They touch me deeply....and there is the inconsistency of my position, but in a way also the validation of it! As an LDS musician who has experienced both sides of art and Spirit, I’m still trying to work all this out.

http://rembrandt.louvre.fr/en/html/heads_of_christ.html

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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8 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

Tom Bombadil.

Arrrggghh. 

A dwarf and an elf romance....noooooooooo.

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4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A dwarf and an elf romance....noooooooooo.

That was pretty stupid.  Only an orc would even conceive of such a thing.

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I heard the Lamb Of God was great this weekend.  Too bad it’s the last one. 

 

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I heard the Lamb Of God was great this weekend.  Too bad it’s the last one. 

 

It went quite well. That it is the last one is the topic for another discussion......

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23 hours ago, Tacenda said:

When it first came out a few years ago I really wanted to see it, until everyone was saying how Mel made it as real as possible and it was very bloody. But I did make it through it today and was fine. It was good for me to watch something to do with the Saviour especially when I didn't attend Sacrament or any other church service. 

Mel Gibson based it on the stations of the cross. You probably noticed the dramatic times Christ fell. Those are part of the stations of the cross. He was very Catholic about the whole thing.

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8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Mel Gibson based it on the stations of the cross. You probably noticed the dramatic times Christ fell. Those are part of the stations of the cross. He was very Catholic about the whole thing.

He's a very Catholic kind of guy.

You no doubt saw Apocalypto, which depicted the Catholic Spaniards as saviors of the Maya and their elites' bloody avarice.

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3 hours ago, USU78 said:

He's a very Catholic kind of guy.

You no doubt saw Apocalypto, which depicted the Catholic Spaniards as saviors of the Maya and their elites' bloody avarice.

Just regarding human nature- 

I really see it as advantageous to have a volunteer clergy called by other members of the volunteer clergy, all sacrificing to be in their extra "jobs" with no payment other than their devotion to the church.

To take on a "job" that can range from probably 10 hours a week to forty- as I bishop I did that sometimes- with out pay makes it certain that you are there for the right reasons.

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7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Just regarding human nature- 

I really see it as advantageous to have a volunteer clergy called by other members of the volunteer clergy, all sacrificing to be in their extra "jobs" with no payment other than their devotion to the church.

To take on a "job" that can range from probably 10 hours a week to forty- as I bishop I did that sometimes- with out pay makes it certain that you are there for the right reasons.

My biggest favorite organizational aspect of our church right here.  It helps me trust the message so much more.  At least for local leadership. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, USU78 said:

He's a very Catholic kind of guy.

You no doubt saw Apocalypto, which depicted the Catholic Spaniards as saviors of the Maya and their elites' bloody avarice.

I saw Apocalypto and I would never characterize that movie as depicting the Catholic Spaniards as Saviors of the Maya.  If anything, I think they served to foreshadow some karma coming the Maya's way. :lol:

Edited by bluebell
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I saw Apocalypto and I would never characterize that movie as depicting the Catholic Spaniards as Saviors of the Maya.  If anything, I think they served to foreshadow some karma coming the Maya's way. :lol:

Interesting. My take was, whatever the Inquisition was or wasn't, what those poor folks suffered at the hands of the arrogant Spaniards was a mere fraction of that cornucopia of blood and horror the heirs of Gadianton inflicted.

Edited by USU78
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14 hours ago, USU78 said:

He's a very Catholic kind of guy.

You no doubt saw Apocalypto, which depicted the Catholic Spaniards as saviors of the Maya and their elites' bloody avarice.

Yep, that's how I saw it, too (and it was the Aztecs, not the Maya). The Aztecs were ruthless and bloody. This false image of a terrible Cortez enslaving a peaceful people really needs to go. One of the reasons why Cortez was successful against the Aztecs is because he was helped by the Aztec's neighbors who hated the cruelties and inhumanities of the Aztecs and rose up against them.

I like Neil Young's song "Cortez the Killer" as a song, but as history it's total bunk. This verse in particular is so laughable:

Hate was just a legend
War was never known
People worked together
And they lifted many stones

Anyways, the narrative of the terrible Catholics is hard to dislodge. Yes, Catholics have done terrible things, no doubt and no denial, but the true history often gets blurred in the common mind. The inquisition, the crusades, etc.

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On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:02 AM, MustardSeed said:

My biggest favorite organizational aspect of our church right here.  It helps me trust the message so much more.  At least for local leadership. 

I would agree that there are some positive aspects of a lay clergy but there are definitely some downsides as well. IMO- earning a living as a pastor doesn't necessarily corrupt the message. In fact, allowing a person the time needed to study, prepare, serve during daytime (work) hours can increase effectiveness. There are many things I was simply unable to do because I had a full time job. There are many things I never even considered doing because it hadn't crossed my mind because I didn't have the time to commit. Most church leaders serve well, and have great intentions but there are obvious limitations to their service, some of which aren't limitations for a paid clergy. I've had good leaders, bad leaders, absent leaders, incompetent leaders, generous leaders etc. All of the leaders worked within the same organizational framework the church created, but all leaders are not created equal. I think it depends more on the leader/pastor than it does the organizational system. There are trade offs.

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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I would agree that there are some positive aspects of a lay clergy but there are definitely some downsides as well. IMO- earning a living as a pastor doesn't necessarily corrupt the message. In fact, allowing a person the time needed to study, prepare, serve during daytime (work) hours can increase effectiveness. There are many things I was simply unable to do because I had a full time job. There are many things I never even considered doing because it hadn't crossed my mind because I didn't have the time to commit. Most church leaders serve well, and have great intentions but there are obvious limitations to their service, some of which aren't limitations for a paid clergy. I've had good leaders, bad leaders, absent leaders, incompetent leaders, generous leaders etc. All of the leaders worked within the same organizational framework the church created, but all leaders are not created equal. I think it depends more on the leader/pastor than it does the organizational system. There are trade offs.

Absolutely.  For sure.  I have known outstanding pastors whom I trust. 

That said, **as for me alone, regardless of what organization I’m in I’m going to ask a lot of questions and I’m going to dislike aspects of any religion.  When I am questioning something at my church, I can ask myself, what is this persons motive, and is it a pure message? 

Sonetimes pride and attention are what fuels the messenger, but at least I don’t have to factor in wealth when analyzing a message. 

I agree, paid positions affords unique time and attention.  But that’s not important to me personally in a church.  Other than it is not always easy to have a volunteer calling in addition to my family and high demand career. 

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On 4/22/2019 at 1:07 PM, MustardSeed said:

I heard the Lamb Of God was great this weekend.  Too bad it’s the last one. 

 

You must be in the Tacoma area?

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41 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You must be in the Tacoma area?

No.  But I get around.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2019 at 1:21 AM, mfbukowski said:

Just regarding human nature- 

I really see it as advantageous to have a volunteer clergy called by other members of the volunteer clergy, all sacrificing to be in their extra "jobs" with no payment other than their devotion to the church.

To take on a "job" that can range from probably 10 hours a week to forty- as I bishop I did that sometimes- with out pay makes it certain that you are there for the right reasons.

It no doubt would weed out most unscrupulous individuals (if those individuals were not weeded out a long time ago by other unpaid positions required before being considered for these leadership positions), but it´s quite the stretch from ¨volunteer¨/unpaid clergy to ¨there for the right reasons¨, let alone certainty (as you know), and...

On 4/23/2019 at 9:02 AM, MustardSeed said:

My biggest favorite organizational aspect of our church right here.  It helps me trust the message so much more.  At least for local leadership. 

... let alone being able to ¨trust the message¨. Local leadership does not make the message - they use official materials and instructions for their local presentations - those who make the official materials/messages are paid and have plenty of the non-monetary perks that threaten the integrity of all leadership positions.
 

Perhaps, from my limited experience, I am wrong about the possible sources of local leadership messages, but I´m certainly not wrong that money is far from the only motivation that can compromise a leader, their leadership, and their message. It is not even the strongest of such motivations. So, if it were true (about the message makers), then it could give one reason to trust more.  But it does not carry nearly as far, I think, as LDS members imply it does.

Edited by Joshua Valentine
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6 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

It no doubt would weed out most unscrupulous individuals (if those individuals were not weeded out a long time ago by other unpaid positions required before being considered for these leadership positions), but it´s quite the stretch from ¨volunteer¨/unpaid clergy to ¨there for the right reasons¨, let alone certainty (as you know), and...

... let alone being able to ¨trust the message¨. Local leadership does not make the message - they use official materials and instructions for their local presentations - those who make the official materials/messages are paid and have plenty of the non-monetary perks that threaten the integrity of all leadership positions.
 

Perhaps, from my limited experience, I am wrong about the possible sources of local leadership messages, but I´m certainly not wrong that money is far from the only motivation that can compromise a leader, their leadership, and their message. It is not even the strongest of such motivations. So, if it were true (about the message makers), then it could give one reason to trust more.  But it does not carry nearly as far, I think, as LDS members imply it does.

Well thanks for watering down my faith today! Lol

I’m aware of all this. It still matters to me.  But it’s an interesting discussion regardless. :)

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I think I should expand my reply to you valentine. 

I am opposed to paid clergy even in our own church due to the fact that I was raised by people who disparaged money makers and power seekers within the church- they refused to “buy tickets” to church education traveling shows and to this day we all scoff at TOFW.  We never purchased Deseret stuff other than Garments and scriptures and my uncle would share stories of unscrupulous paid characters in the church Ed program.  He himself turned down an offer to get on the speaking circuit because he felt it was corrupt.  This all in the 70s and 80s.  Right or wrong, it shaped me. Since then I’ve been offered money to produce product to sell but I can’t in good faith do it. 

Also we had a pastor in my hood 20 years ago who told his congregation that God wanted him to build a church house.  So tithes went way up. 3 years later, no church was build but pastor moved from to hood to a newly constructed home.  He said God told him to provide for his family before building the church. 

I guess God changes his mind in other churches too. ;)  anyway, that turned me off. 

No doubt there are inconsistencies in my stories, have at it.  But for me , there is comfort that the lesson today is coming from sister x who is not getting paid, famous, or much of anything from delivering a good message rooted in scripture on being “kind to others”.

i know if i ever left I’d not join another church. 

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11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

No.  But I get around.

Do you mind saying how you were aware of the Tacoma Lamb of God? Just wondering....

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To an extent, I understand and agree with your position on money @MustardSeed. I also appreciate your personal experience in this area. Thanks for sharing particulars.

It is a legitimate comfort to know that someone is doing something without money as a motivation/risk to their integrity. I point out that money is not the only corruptible motivation (position/power/prominence in society, fear of loss, and other social perks can be even more powerful). I´m sure you are aware of this, but I have never heard an LDS admit it - they just sing the praises of unpaid clergy without any recognition that money is not the only or the biggest game in town, or that its the paid upper leadership and staff who are determining messages and directions.

But you specifically mentioned the message, and for the LDS Church (according to my understanding), messages given by everyone from members to bishops and even stake presidents are drawn from the centralized publications of the upper leadership and staff, all of whom are not only paid, but certainly could be compromised by the other motivations.

Simply because someone is paid does not mean they are corrupted.  So, too, just because someone is not paid does not mean their integrity is intact. That these are truisms does not mean that one should not be aware of the influence of money, but it also does not mean that its an all or nothing thing. We cannot sit on the laurel of unpaid and not keep vigilant of integrity. Similarly, we should not write off every person who is paid as plague to be avoided out of hand - which your last statement seems to be an illustration of.

Again, I am sympathetic to avoidance. I have had my fair share of negative church experiences and am very wary of putting too much into a leader or an organization. But I still will give particular leaders and organizations a chance (with grace for their humanity).

In fact, given that these people do not claim to be THE prophet of God and these organization do not claim to be THE church of God, allows me to take them as they are - humans more or less trying to work with God and each other. On the other hand, it is these claims of the LDS Church that warrant me holding LDS leadership and organization to a higher standard (however much members seem to disagree with this implication). Given these great claims, it seems even stranger to me for individuals to give too much credit to the whole leadership and organization simply because the lower part of leadership do not get paid (let alone that they are not the sources of the messages or directives of their church).

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34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you mind saying how you were aware of the Tacoma Lamb of God? Just wondering....

A family member was a participant this year

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29 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

To an extent, I understand and agree with your position on money @MustardSeed. I also appreciate your personal experience in this area. Thanks for sharing particulars.

It is a legitimate comfort to know that someone is doing something without money as a motivation/risk to their integrity. I point out that money is not the only corruptible motivation (position/power/prominence in society, fear of loss, and other social perks can be even more powerful). I´m sure you are aware of this, but I have never heard an LDS admit it - they just sing the praises of unpaid clergy without any recognition that money is not the only or the biggest game in town, or that its the paid upper leadership and staff who are determining messages and directions.

But you specifically mentioned the message, and for the LDS Church (according to my understanding), messages given by everyone from members to bishops and even stake presidents are drawn from the centralized publications of the upper leadership and staff, all of whom are not only paid, but certainly could be compromised by the other motivations.

Simply because someone is paid does not mean they are corrupted.  So, too, just because someone is not paid does not mean their integrity is intact. That these are truisms does not mean that one should not be aware of the influence of money, but it also does not mean that its an all or nothing thing. We cannot sit on the laurel of unpaid and not keep vigilant of integrity. Similarly, we should not write off every person who is paid as plague to be avoided out of hand - which your last statement seems to be an illustration of.

Again, I am sympathetic to avoidance. I have had my fair share of negative church experiences and am very wary of putting too much into a leader or an organization. But I still will give particular leaders and organizations a chance (with grace for their humanity).

In fact, given that these people do not claim to be THE prophet of God and these organization do not claim to be THE church of God, allows me to take them as they are - humans more or less trying to work with God and each other. On the other hand, it is these claims of the LDS Church that warrant me holding LDS leadership and organization to a higher standard (however much members seem to disagree with this implication). Given these great claims, it seems even stranger to me for individuals to give too much credit to the whole leadership and organization simply because the lower part of leadership do not get paid (let alone that they are not the sources of the messages or directives of their church).

That makes perfect sense to me. 

Many of us have seen people struggle with being released from certain callings, as if their identities are crushed by a releasing.  It nearly destroyed my grandfather to be released as bishop and he was a legit good man,  but people certainly have motives outside of a pure desire to serve God which can appear convolute the message.  Pride, a sense of worth, attention, reassurance, redemption, we’ve seen it if we haven’t indeed even felt it ourselves.  

Money just happens to be a dirty culprit and obvious target .  

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