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MustardSeed

The Cross

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On 4/17/2019 at 3:17 PM, MustardSeed said:

There is a professor of Ancient Near East studies at BYU who talks about the cross as a symbol of Christ's atonement.

It's easter!  We celebrate with religions around the world this holy day.  There are similarities and there are contrasting elements in our worship.  One being that we do not use the traditional cross.  I'm sure this has been discussed here before but it's easter and I just listened to a program about this topic.

The professor believes we 'should' implement the cross more in our religion.  

I think that would be pretty great in multiple ways - that said, I have always felt sort of icky about the cross, mainly because someone gave me a chain with a cross on it when I was a child and my mother reacted as if someone had given me a dirty magazine.  It was confiscated and not discussed.  

I think the cross is beautiful, and very meaningful.  I think that Christ's sacrifice of death is so relatable.  I try to understand the atonement, and it is important to strive to understand it, but it is really abstract.  His death is a concrete concept and I can certainly appreciate the fact that someone loved us so much that he was willing to be in mortal pain and anguish and to be killed.  We down play that (I think) and we focus on the garden.   I'd be all about wearing a cross as a declaration of my devotion and gratitude for His sacrifice.  I wear the Garment but nobody sees that.  Well, as long as I'm not wearing my cheeky shorts.  

This is all just my thoughts and rambling.  Do other people see the cross as an evil symbol like I did as a child, or as a real problem?  And would it actually hurt us if we celebrated the cross?  Would it bring new understanding of us to other people?  Would it really take away from the focus on the atonement, or are we capable of multitasking?  

Note that I know this site has no power.  It's not like the option is on the table or like me commenting on it is going to mean a thing.  I'm just thinking out loud. :)

I grew up in a Baptist Church, so I would have no issues at all the the Church adopting the Cross openly. It would not bother me if this Sunday there was one on every steeple of the Church. It would help many other Faiths who are confused as to why it is not there, and take away  the the thunder of those who criticize us for not using it. Especially because it would not change what goes on inside our Chapels and Temples, we would not be surrendering anything that makes us unique, or a “peculiar people”, as we are commanded to be. It would also be a welcoming sign, both figuratively, and literally to both investigators, and to those who see us as outsiders to the Christian Faith. Of course it will not do away with the rabid anti-Mormons, they will always “lie and wait to deceive”. 

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On 4/17/2019 at 3:17 PM, MustardSeed said:

There is a professor of Ancient Near East studies at BYU who talks about the cross as a symbol of Christ's atonement.

It's easter!  We celebrate with religions around the world this holy day.  There are similarities and there are contrasting elements in our worship.  One being that we do not use the traditional cross.  I'm sure this has been discussed here before but it's easter and I just listened to a program about this topic.

The professor believes we 'should' implement the cross more in our religion.  

I think that would be pretty great in multiple ways - that said, I have always felt sort of icky about the cross, mainly because someone gave me a chain with a cross on it when I was a child and my mother reacted as if someone had given me a dirty magazine.  It was confiscated and not discussed.  

I think the cross is beautiful, and very meaningful.  I think that Christ's sacrifice of death is so relatable.  I try to understand the atonement, and it is important to strive to understand it, but it is really abstract.  His death is a concrete concept and I can certainly appreciate the fact that someone loved us so much that he was willing to be in mortal pain and anguish and to be killed.  We down play that (I think) and we focus on the garden.   I'd be all about wearing a cross as a declaration of my devotion and gratitude for His sacrifice.  I wear the Garment but nobody sees that.  Well, as long as I'm not wearing my cheeky shorts.  

This is all just my thoughts and rambling.  Do other people see the cross as an evil symbol like I did as a child, or as a real problem?  And would it actually hurt us if we celebrated the cross?  Would it bring new understanding of us to other people?  Would it really take away from the focus on the atonement, or are we capable of multitasking?  

Note that I know this site has no power.  It's not like the option is on the table or like me commenting on it is going to mean a thing.  I'm just thinking out loud. :)

I grew up in a Baptist Church, so I would have no issues at all the the Church adopting the Cross openly. It would not bother me if this Sunday there was one on every steeple of the Church. It would help many other Faiths who are confused as to why it is not there, and take away  the the thunder of those who criticize us for not using it. Especially because it would not change what goes on inside our Chapels and Temples, we would not be surrendering anything that makes us unique, or a “peculiar people”, as we are commanded to be. It would also be a welcoming sign, both figuratively, and literally to both investigators, and to those who see us as outsiders to the Christian Faith. Of course it will not do away with the rabid anti-Mormons, they will always “lie and wait to deceive”. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/17/2019 at 3:17 PM, MustardSeed said:

 

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee

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26 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I grew up in a Baptist Church, so I would have no issues at all the the Church adopting the Cross openly. It would not bother me if this Sunday there was one on every steeple of the Church. It would help many other Faiths who are confused as to why it is not there, and take away  the the thunder of those who criticize us for not using it. Especially because it would not change what goes on inside our Chapels and Temples, we would not be surrendering anything that makes us unique, or a “peculiar people”, as we are commanded to be. It would also be a welcoming sign, both figuratively, and literally to both investigators, and to those who see us as outsiders to the Christian Faith. Of course it will not do away with the rabid anti-Mormons, they will always “lie and wait to deceive”. 

Refreshing.  Thank you! :)

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2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I grew up in a Baptist Church, so I would have no issues at all the the Church adopting the Cross openly. It would not bother me if this Sunday there was one on every steeple of the Church. It would help many other Faiths who are confused as to why it is not there, and take away  the the thunder of those who criticize us for not using it. Especially because it would not change what goes on inside our Chapels and Temples, we would not be surrendering anything that makes us unique, or a “peculiar people”, as we are commanded to be. It would also be a welcoming sign, both figuratively, and literally to both investigators, and to those who see us as outsiders to the Christian Faith. Of course it will not do away with the rabid anti-Mormons, they will always “lie and wait to deceive”. 

Ah, but sad experience has taught me that the naysayers would quickly and forcefully pounce on us for trying to deceive others into thinking we are actually Christians. 

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2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I grew up in a Baptist Church, so I would have no issues at all the the Church adopting the Cross openly. It would not bother me if this Sunday there was one on every steeple of the Church. It would help many other Faiths who are confused as to why it is not there, and take away  the the thunder of those who criticize us for not using it. Especially because it would not change what goes on inside our Chapels and Temples, we would not be surrendering anything that makes us unique, or a “peculiar people”, as we are commanded to be. It would also be a welcoming sign, both figuratively, and literally to both investigators, and to those who see us as outsiders to the Christian Faith. Of course it will not do away with the rabid anti-Mormons, they will always “lie and wait to deceive”. 

I agree with you.  I wear a cross openly, and I did on my mission.  Around my neck and on this zipper of my scriptures triple cover.  No one, including my mission prsident and  members have given me any grief over it.   Some members asked about it.  I replay that it reminds my of the sacrifice Christ made for me.  That is enough. People understand.  

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5 hours ago, 3DOP said:

I was speaking of the whole book of Malachi as the only prophecy with which I am familiar. I meant all of the last book in the Old Testament for non-Catholics; Mal. 1:11 primarily, and other references in Catholic translations to "sacrifice" elsewhere in his short prophecy, if you will. I do not think we Catholics should insist to non-Catholics, that the English word "sacrifice", as used in English Catholic translations of Malachi are paramount. What is more important is if early witnesses connected the prophecy of Malachi about whatever word you prefer, sacrifice, oblation, or offering is fulfilled in the Eucharistic celebration called "breaking of bread" in the Acts of the Apostles.  

Sorry about Martino. Martino is my son-in-law who believes that the poet Leopardi, an apparent skeptic as to God and certainly not Catholic, has much to offer to Catholics who will consider his musings. If I understand him correctly, his doctoral thesis attempts to dispel some stereotypes about Leopardi, that would make him seem like an atheistic communist, that he believes are a twisting and misunderstanding of his poetry. I have an instinctive aversion to Wittgenstein as well as Leopardi, except that someone I know thinks that perhaps that their ideas are in many ways, compatible with, and possibly instructive for thoughtful Catholics. I know Leopardi's life a little. Pretty hard, and it shaped him. It sounds like Wittgenstein experienced some trials in his upbringing which was the same as his four brothers, three of whom are thought to have committed suicide. Maybe we need to consider the anguish and pain in souls that seem to reject the beliefs we who have not suffered what they have, hold dear. Job is our biblical example, and he was extraordinary in his suffering, placing it in the context of God's providence in this life. But what of those who do not so succeed in retaining faith while suffering? Are their reflections from a worldview of infidelity always insignificant for the faithful?

Anyway...maybe I shouldn't have brought up my son-in-law. I could have proposed the same ideas without making it personal. It is not improbable that somebody (me) just wanted people to know that "truck driver boy" and now, "factory boy", somehow raised a child that some smart guy wanted to marry. I was warning myself that I was tooting my horn. Why don't I always listen to my better self?

Monday looms, and first shift is at 0330. We get Thursday and Friday off. Hurrah. See you all then maybe.

I don't see any comparisons between W and L frankly, except both saw all language as poetic and symbolic

W's family was rich and famous, one of the richest in Europe and he was a wunderkind in anything he tried. He mingled with artists and composers and his family was a patron of the Arts.

Don't denigrate your abilities. The most important thing in life for a man is to be a good father and from all I can see you are an excellent one.

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11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ah, but sad experience has taught me that the naysayers would quickly and forcefully pounce on us for trying to deceive others into thinking we are actually Christians. 

Probably right, I thought I pointed that out. I was speaking of the future. 

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10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't see any comparisons between W and L frankly, except both saw all language as poetic and symbolic

W's family was rich and famous, one of the richest in Europe and he was a wunderkind in anything he tried. He mingled with artists and composers and his family was a patron of the Arts.

Don't denigrate your abilities. The most important thing in life for a man is to be a good father and from all I can see you are an excellent one.

I just started reading "The Duty of Genius" by Monk about Wittgenstein. It seems like it's going to be a good read.

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