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SouthernMo

Stay or Go?

Stay or Go?  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. If an endowed member no longer has a desire to keep his/her covenants, or retain a temple recommend, but likes being a Mormon, what should he/she do?

    • Respect the covenants that he/she made and resign membership from the church.
      4
    • Remain a member, don't make a fuss, and participate in whatever capacity or activity level he/she can.
      44
    • Share his/her position and beliefs with the Bishop, and accept his counsel on the matter.
      6
    • Other. Please explain.
      8


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2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I am literally saying a prayer right now that you will never be put in an LDS church leadership position where you are asked to counsel people who struggle.

I don't know how most members stay members. I guess it goes to show you they honestly believe it's the only true church or they'd be gone.

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I guess the poll needs clarification.  It says nothing about the person's testimony/belief/acceptance of God and the gospel and all that.   If someone is struggling in their faith, my answer changes completely.

(But truth be told, I welcome the entire world praying that I'll never be in a leadership position. I'm inches away from giving y'all my bishop's telephone number so you can all tell on me.  :) )

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49 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know how most members stay members. I guess it goes to show you they honestly believe it's the only true church or they'd be gone.

 

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

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5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

To me, this is a false dichotomy. I don’t have to choose between the LDS church and rejecting/leaving Jesus. They are not synonymous.

But, having been Mormon for a very long time, I can see and appreciate why many church members might feel this way.

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7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

To me, this is a false dichotomy.

You're reading something into my post that I didn't intend. I was just pointing out that sincerely believing is kind of the whole point of not leaving. Most of Jesus's disciples left Him; eleven of the Twelve didn't because they sincerely believed (and were sure!).

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Quite different for apostles who were actually acquainted with Jesus, than for people living 2000+years later deciding which religious group is most closely led by God.

I've come to the conclusion - if there is a God, and this God desires personal individual relationships with everyone, the only way to protect agency and promote individual testimonies (no borrowed light), is to make all religious organizations imperfect.  No one would take the necessary individual journey if their group provided everything they needed.

I wish there was more room for people to allow themselves to leave organized religion without also leaving their belief in God.  It is not supposed to be faith in a church, it is supposed to be faith in God.

 

Edited by changed

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3 minutes ago, changed said:

Quite different for apostles who were actually acquainted with Jesus, than for people living 2000+years later deciding which religious group is most closely led by God.

I think being personally acquainted with Jesus is probably helpful in both situations. Though of course the disciples who left during Jesus's ministry probably thought they were well acquainted with Him.

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Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think being personally acquainted with Jesus is probably helpful in both situations. Though of course the disciples who left during Jesus's ministry probably thought they were well acquainted with Him.

 

Yes, it comes down to personally knowing Jesus which is a hard thing to do in this life.  The closest any of us can get is personally knowing who we would have God and Jesus to be - so I guess we come to know ourselves in this life, and will come to know the real God and Jesus in the next life.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, changed said:

The closest any of us can get is personally knowing who we would have God and Jesus to be - so I guess we come to know ourselves in this life, and will come to know the real God and Jesus in the next life.

My experience has been completely different to what you describe. We can get to know the Father and the Son in this life ... and very often they are radically different to who we would have Them to be -- a phenomenon that seems to have characterised many people's interactions with the Lord during His mortality as well.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, changed said:

Quite different for apostles who were actually acquainted with Jesus, than for people living 2000+years later deciding which religious group is most closely led by God.

I've come to the conclusion - if there is a God, and this God desires personal individual relationships with everyone, the only way to protect agency and promote individual testimonies (no borrowed light), is to make all religious organizations imperfect.  No one would take the necessary individual journey if their group provided everything they needed.

I wish there was more room for people to allow themselves to leave organized religion without also leaving their belief in God.  It is not supposed to be faith in a church, it is supposed to be faith in God.

 

Why arent you acquainted with Jesus? How can we obtain eternal life without being acquainted with Him?

Edited by Avatar4321

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2 hours ago, changed said:

I wish there was more room for people to allow themselves to leave organized religion without also leaving their belief in God.  It is not supposed to be faith in a church, it is supposed to be faith in 

And how would they learn much of God except through communities?  It was organized religion that produced the scriptures, for example.

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On 4/16/2019 at 8:57 PM, JLHPROF said:

Some might expect me to vote for resignation but I think leaving should always be a last resort.

I think counseling with priesthood leaders is a much better choice.

However if no longer having a desire turns into breaking covenants then I do think discipline up to and including excommunication may be warranted. 

There are penalties for breaking covenants.  Not wanting to keep them is a different issue.

And if you believe you have covenanted with nothing?

Or if you feel you are entering into higher or truer covenants?

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On 4/16/2019 at 7:57 PM, JLHPROF said:

Some might expect me to vote for resignation but I think leaving should always be a last resort.

I think counseling with priesthood leaders is a much better choice.

However if no longer having a desire turns into breaking covenants then I do think discipline up to and including excommunication may be warranted. 

There are penalties for breaking covenants.  Not wanting to keep them is a different issue.

For some reason this sounds cultish, and the church can act or put so much on members backs like how you're speaking now. It's harmful by breaking up families. Because if someone breaks these covenants that means they won't be with their family. And so many hide their feelings living in torment. That's an unhealthy institution. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And so many hide their feelings living in torment. That's an unhealthy institution. 

No, that's an unhealthy individual.

Quote

Because if someone breaks these covenants that means they won't be with their family.

Only if one still believes that these covenants are real.

If they aren't, it's the same as fretting that one is going to suffer a terrible accident for not having forwarded a chain letter.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No, that's an unhealthy individual

Tacenda, this right here nails it. 

There are a LOT of unhealthy folks out there.  Religion attracts unhealthy people IMO****.  Religion promises peace, and when one is anxious, bi polar, depressed, guilt ridden, lonely, outcast, or otherwise, the promise of eternal perfection and weekly renewal is a hopeful message. 

I think our religion is a Mecca for sad people.  That means that the church is both beautiful in many ways and a hospital  of struggling folks.

That’s not to say that the Gospel is the problem. When an individual is well balanced, the church is  a very different experience than when one is not healthy and struggles occur. 

There have been, I would agree, some wonky and even unhealthy policies and practices.  That is my opinion.  But mostly imo we have unhealthy humans. 

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8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Only if one still believes that these covenants are real.

If they aren't, it's the same as fretting that one is going to suffer a terrible accident for not having forwarded a chain letter.

But it is real, believe it or not.  If you don’t believe it, then you won’t worry.   But you still won’t be with your family. You may think you will but you won’t.  According to the primary manual and deductive reasoning. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/18/2019 at 2:16 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

In some other denominations the receiver must make more of an effort to receive the communion. They physically have to stand, walk toward the emblems, open their hands to receive as the emblem is placed in their hand. In some they call you by name and look you in the eye as you receive. It feels much more personal to me. I also like that many other denominations play music during communion. Some denominations are more inclusive. In Methodism they practice an "open table" which means that everyone is invited to partake. In the congregation I sometimes attend the pastor makes a point to let everyone know they are welcome regardless of their level of faith, no matter how worthy they feel, no matter what their denomination. All are invited to receive the Lord's supper, regardless of where one is in their faith journey. Personally, I feel that is how Jesus would act. I don't think there would be worthiness qualifications for partaking. Partaking can be a combination of ones faith, desire, hope, etc, and the only thing that matters to God is that an effort is being made.

In both the early Christian Church and the Nephite Church, the emblems of the sacrament were taken individually to the members....the pattern was established by Jesus himself. I think there is greater symbolism in this.

Jesus, Paul, and Mormon advised against taking it unworthily.

Quote

3 Nephi 18

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.
30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.
31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered.
32 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out of your synagogues, or your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.
33 Therefore, keep these sayings which I have commanded you that ye come not under condemnation; for wo unto him whom the Father condemneth.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In the early Christian Church and the Nephite Church, the emblems of the sacrament were taken individually to the members....the pattern was established by Jesus. 

Since we are not Protestants, and each of us is called upon baptism to a quasi-priesthood, we are, each of us, free to dispense the bread/wine-water to our fellow worshipers after the priest has dispensed them to the deacons, and the deacons have dispensed them to us.  I don't think there's a reason to get all complicated and form-bound, demanding that only the priest [or protestant padre] may dispense the sacrament of communion to individual worshipers.  The Last Supper was simple.  Our recreation of it each week should also be simple.

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14 hours ago, changed said:

Quite different for apostles who were actually acquainted with Jesus, than for people living 2000+years later deciding which religious group is most closely led by God.

I've come to the conclusion - if there is a God, and this God desires personal individual relationships with everyone, the only way to protect agency and promote individual testimonies (no borrowed light), is to make all religious organizations imperfect.  No one would take the necessary individual journey if their group provided everything they needed.

I wish there was more room for people to allow themselves to leave organized religion without also leaving their belief in God.  It is not supposed to be faith in a church, it is supposed to be faith in God.

 

by Yehuda Amichai

From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring.

The place where we are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard.

But doubts and loves
Dig up the world
Like a mole, a plow.
And a whisper will be heard in the place
Where the ruined
House once stood.

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18 hours ago, Calm said:

And how would they learn much of God except through communities?  It was organized religion that produced the scriptures, for example.

Balanced - part of the journey within, and part of it without.

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6 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

by Yehuda Amichai

From the place where we are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring.

The place where we are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard.

But doubts and loves
Dig up the world
Like a mole, a plow.
And a whisper will be heard in the place
Where the ruined
House once stood.

So very beautiful.  Thank you, and thank you again.  

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8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

If you don’t believe it, then you won’t worry.

Exactly. People who fret about these things needs to realise that what they're struggling with is an inner fear that they're wrong.

When I was working in Sumatera, I rented a room in the home of a very devout Muslim family. One evening, the husband and I were sitting on the back balcony drinking tea/hot water. 'So', he said, 'you must be a Christian'.

'Yep. And obviously you're a Muslim'.

'Yep. You must think I'm going to hell'.

'Nope. What kind of God would send someone to hell for being sincerely mistaken? I couldn't worship a God like that'.

Long pause, then, 'Well, that makes me feel bad. Because I believe my God will send you to hell for being a Christian'.

One man was bothered. One man wasn't.

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39 minutes ago, changed said:

Balanced - part of the journey within, and part of it without.

I don't disagree with that, but leaving community (organized religion) would seem to deprive you of the opportunity for the best balance.

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5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Exactly. People who fret about these things needs to realise that what they're struggling with is an inner fear that they're wrong.

When I was working in Sumatera, I rented a room in the home of a very devout Muslim family. One evening, the husband and I were sitting on the back balcony drinking tea/hot water. 'So', he said, 'you must be a Christian'.

'Yep. And obviously you're a Muslim'.

'Yep. You must think I'm going to hell'.

'Nope. What kind of God would send someone to hell for being sincerely mistaken? I couldn't worship a God like that'.

Long pause, then, 'Well, that makes me feel bad. Because I believe my God will send you to hell for being a Christian'.

One man was bothered. One man wasn't.

Except he might not have been bothered by his belief, but sorry that you are wrong and therefore will suffer.

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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Except he might not have been bothered by his belief, but sorry that you are wrong and therefore will suffer.

Sure. Either way, he didn't like the situation, and I was fine with it. I can live in the home of someone who thinks I'm doomed to hell, sit and drink with him even, and not be fussed because I'm not in any way worried that he might be right.

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