Stay or Go?

[Avatar4321]

Keep your covenants anyway

[SouthernMo]

19 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Keep your covenants anyway

If faith without works is dead, is work without faith dead?

[HappyJackWagon]

22 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

If faith without works is dead, is work without faith dead?

I love the question.

My answer is ... I have no idea. But I'd be hesitant to call anyone's faith or works dead simply because I don't understand or appreciate the person's motives. I suspect God will be very merciful with us regarding our incomplete faith and/or works.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Um... they don't call themselves Mormons.

Some don’t but last I heard some of the smaller break offs do.

[The Nehor]

Dupe.

Edited April 18, 2019 by The Nehor

[Storm Rider]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:26 PM, SouthernMo said:

See the poll.

I think most people see progression as ever increasing in faith and observance of the teachings of Christ. Personally, this life is a time of trial and choice. Progress for one is not progress for another. All of our Father's children have periods of disinterest, lesser faith or trails of our faith, and times when we choose to sin. Some of us wander from religion to religion.

The better path is not to judge ourselves or others as we see ourselves or them today. We each are in the process of learning and God is working with us to bring us into a position to fulfill our mission in this life and the next. Be gentle with yourself and share your mind and heart with your Father in Heaven. Let him be the captain of your soul and guide you in paths of learning and growth. As you resist him you will see how unhappiness increases - I am not saying your life will be difficult - I am saying your unhappiness will increase. When we are striving to be one with Father we can be happy under any circumstances. 

I see no need to talk to a bishop, but I strongly recommend some long discussions on your knees.

[Steve-o]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:07 PM, Calm said:

I wish we did rebaptisms at times...the Sacrament for me feels very private, but limited as we move on so quickly.  There is something very soulful and complete about immersion as the sign of the covenant.

I've experienced communion in other denominations. In most cases it felt more special than it does in sacrament meeting. I do not know why that is.

[Stargazer]

I'm torn between option 2 and 3.  2 predominates, so that's what I checked.

[Stargazer]

On 4/17/2019 at 2:57 AM, JLHPROF said:

Some might expect me to vote for resignation but I think leaving should always be a last resort.

I think counseling with priesthood leaders is a much better choice.

However if no longer having a desire turns into breaking covenants then I do think discipline up to and including excommunication may be warranted. 

There are penalties for breaking covenants.  Not wanting to keep them is a different issue.

Well, you don't have to break ALL one's covenants.  Perhaps just a tidy selection of them, the ones that won't land you in the bishop's or stake president's office.

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, Steve-o said:

I've experienced communion in other denominations. In most cases it felt more special than it does in sacrament meeting. I do not know why that is.

That might be because it was new to you, also because some of those denominations only do it occasionally and when they do they go whole hog on the ceremony. Ever been to a Catholic High Mass, such as at Christmas?  Wow, it's impressive.

[Stargazer]

In our ward in Washington state there was an older inactive couple, they were only names on the ward list, and had never been to the temple.  The wife had formerly been Catholic, and after her parents died she decided to rejoin the Catholic Church in their honor.  So she put in her resignation and started attending weekly mass.  This apparently put the husband in mind of his testimony, which was still there, so he started attending our ward, got active, and went all out to be an exemplary member.  Meanwhile his wife attended weekly mass, but after the initial pleasure of going back to her roots it all began to pall on her.  She just wasn't getting what she formerly had out of it.  Eventually, she started attending church with him, and then her testimony started coming back.  Finally she went to the bishop and asked to come back.  She was required to wait a year, but she did and was then rebaptized -- by her husband.  At some point they went to the temple, received their endowments and were sealed as husband and wife.  As the ward clerk at the time I got to watch the whole thing, and it was very uplifting.  They're both gone to the next place now, but they stayed active and enthusiastic to the end.  Listening to them speak in church was a treat.

So, never say never.  And even if you resign, you can come back.

But always, always, always, treat those who leave or doubt with respect and friendship.  You're not supposed to drive them further away, but if you have to send them off, send them off with love and a welcoming heart.

[HappyJackWagon]

34 minutes ago, Steve-o said:

I've experienced communion in other denominations. In most cases it felt more special than it does in sacrament meeting. I do not know why that is.

In some other denominations the receiver must make more of an effort to receive the communion. They physically have to stand, walk toward the emblems, open their hands to receive as the emblem is placed in their hand. In some they call you by name and look you in the eye as you receive. It feels much more personal to me. I also like that many other denominations play music during communion. Some denominations are more inclusive. In Methodism they practice an "open table" which means that everyone is invited to partake. In the congregation I sometimes attend the pastor makes a point to let everyone know they are welcome regardless of their level of faith, no matter how worthy they feel, no matter what their denomination. All are invited to receive the Lord's supper, regardless of where one is in their faith journey. Personally, I feel that is how Jesus would act. I don't think there would be worthiness qualifications for partaking. Partaking can be a combination of ones faith, desire, hope, etc, and the only thing that matters to God is that an effort is being made.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Steve-o said:

I've experienced communion in other denominations. In most cases it felt more special than it does in sacrament meeting. I do not know why that is.

Were you a member at the time of that denomination?

[10THAmendment]

I decided to stay but I did so on “my terms” as I’ve seen it described on here. That’s the only way I can stay. I’ve given myself permission to dismiss certain teachings that I find uncomfortable and wrong. I am an unorthodox Mormon and I’m at peace with that for now. All my focus is on God when I go to church and I take a lot of what I hear with a grain of salt, not as an absolute truth. 

[why me]

On 4/17/2019 at 3:26 AM, SouthernMo said:

See the poll.

You need to follow your heart. If you don't you may lose a sense of peace. No one can steer you in any direction. You just need to make your own choice and go with it.

[Steve-o]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:31 PM, Calm said:

Were you a member at the time of that denomination?

No. Why?

[RevTestament]

On 4/19/2019 at 9:33 PM, 10THAmendment said:

I decided to stay but I did so on “my terms” as I’ve seen it described on here. That’s the only way I can stay. I’ve given myself permission to dismiss certain teachings that I find uncomfortable and wrong. I am an unorthodox Mormon and I’m at peace with that for now. All my focus is on God when I go to church and I take a lot of what I hear with a grain of salt, not as an absolute truth. 

I concern myself with the tenets of the restored gospel, and not so much the other stuff.. There are traditions in the Church which have changed, and others that will. They are thought of as truth, because they have been bantered about, but really are just traditions imho, and will go into the dust heap like other traditions have. Coincidentally, the Jews had their traditions too... someone came along and upset their apple cart....  Not sure why God does things this way. It seems to be a repetitive process here on earth.

[10THAmendment]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I concern myself with the tenets of the restored gospel, and not so much the other stuff.. There are traditions in the Church which have changed, and others that will. They are thought of as truth, because they have been bantered about, but really are just traditions imho, and will go into the dust heap like other traditions have. Coincidentally, the Jews had their traditions too... someone came along and upset their apple cart....  Not sure why God does things this way. It seems to be a repetitive process here on earth.

I don’t know. I appreciate this line of thinking and used to embrace it myself but I don’t believe teaching that Adam is God and that black people are unworthy of blessings due to the color of their skin simply fall into the traditions category. 

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

I don’t know. I appreciate this line of thinking and used to embrace it myself but I don’t believe teaching that Adam is God and that black people are unworthy of blessings due to the color of their skin simply fall into the traditions category. 

Yeah, there are a number of em. Actually, D&C calls Adam our Father. I believe he is Elohim with the Father. Not much of a problem with me. How it gets interpreted seems to be the bigger problem. I see the key of Adam representing something man has not really comprehended. In fact the whole OT tells a story of God, and Adam represents the first. You don't have to believe that, but that's me. The blacks in the priesthood thing I do chalk up to tradition. Traditionally, blacks were slaves, and as Church membership grew, not all Church members could countenance their having equal standing - it was a traditional prejudice thing imho. So because the Church just wasn't ready to get over that, it became a tradition or policy. I have never really accepted it as a revelation, and I don't believe it was the case under Joseph Smith. It is the fault of early Church members for painting it that way imho. While Joseph Smith was alive there were several black priesthood holders. But what happened is that after Joseph Smith died, BY moved the Church out West, and news got back to him of a black elder marrying several white sisters. This type of thing got lampooned in the press back East, and I think this was the catalyst for the ban. BY was right though that Blacks would be able to hold the priesthood after everyone else was given the opportunity - for awhile the Church leaders seem to have forgotten that part. 

There are others. I see no need to go through them all. People on the board know that I do not believe Eden was in the Americas.... Really, none of these things have to do with the truths of the gospel. What needs correcting will get corrected. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Steve-o said:

No. Why?

Experiencing something different than usual often heightens our awareness of it. That might be part of the feeling special.

[LoudmouthMormon]

"no longer has a desire to"

Go ask any parent of kids what happened when their kid said they didn't wanna eat their peas any more.  

I mean, the poll isn't about losing testimony, doubting the divine nature of Jesus, no longer believing the truth claims of the church.  The poll is about what happens when you just don't wanna any more.  Whatever answer was right for the child, should be right for the adult here.

Edited April 22, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[SouthernMo]

36 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

"no longer has a desire to"

Go ask any parent of kids what happened when their kid said they didn't wanna eat their peas any more.  

I mean, the poll isn't about losing testimony, doubting the divine nature of Jesus, no longer believing the truth claims of the church.  The poll is about what happens when you just don't wanna any more.  Whatever answer was right for the child, should be right for the adult here.

Wow. Just wow.

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Wow. Just wow.

I know, right?  Grown people acting like children, allowing themselves to put their testimony and salvation at risk just because of the whimsy of a nonpermanent feeling.   Most of 'em figure they still have to go to work even if they no longer have a desire to.  But teaching primary or wearing a garment is somehow too much for 'em?

People, man.

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I know, right?  Grown people acting like children, allowing themselves to put their testimony and salvation at risk just because of the whimsy of a nonpermanent feeling.   Most of 'em figure they still have to go to work even if they no longer have a desire to.  But teaching primary or wearing a garment is somehow too much for 'em?

People, man.

I am literally saying a prayer right now that you will never be put in an LDS church leadership position where you are asked to counsel people who struggle.

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

"no longer has a desire to"

Go ask any parent of kids what happened when their kid said they didn't wanna eat their peas any more.  

I mean, the poll isn't about losing testimony, doubting the divine nature of Jesus, no longer believing the truth claims of the church.  The poll is about what happens when you just don't wanna any more.  Whatever answer was right for the child, should be right for the adult here.

Hm.  I guess I interpreted the poll differently than you did.  

I didnt read it as “if you don’t want to wear your garments or accept a calling should you stay or leave” although I can see how you did. 

I think if you are a believer and you don’t feel like contributing, or you just don’t feel like wearing your garments , either being a simple issue of convenience, then by all means, eat yer peas. 

But if you’re struggling in your faith and as a result of that crisis you are considering inactivity but that you love the culture of network and ward life and don’t know what to do, then it’s not about peas.  It’s about a crisis of faith and so many people go through it and don’t know what to do about it.  

FWIW.