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Stay or Go?


Stay or Go?  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. If an endowed member no longer has a desire to keep his/her covenants, or retain a temple recommend, but likes being a Mormon, what should he/she do?

    • Respect the covenants that he/she made and resign membership from the church.
      4
    • Remain a member, don't make a fuss, and participate in whatever capacity or activity level he/she can.
      44
    • Share his/her position and beliefs with the Bishop, and accept his counsel on the matter.
      6
    • Other. Please explain.
      8


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Not addressing the covenant being with God, because if one doesn't believe God is a part of it, those arguments are meaningless to them, I am guessing.

If one intends to act against the covenants they made in the past, since I view them as promises we make to ourselves and other members of the community, I think they should resign because at least many members of the community view the promise/contract is still in place and will feel a need to attempt to fill their end.

Otoh, I understand that often that choice to reject and act in ways that would be perceived by others is because of a loss of belief in the meaning of the covenants and so what would be rejected is nonexistent.  Think a contract with a nonexistent company to donate money for a project.  It wouldn't be breaking a contract not to pay or breaking a promise to yourself because there was really nothing to promise about.  So I can see why some see walking away as sufficient.

Edited by Calm
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Some might expect me to vote for resignation but I think leaving should always be a last resort.

I think counseling with priesthood leaders is a much better choice.

However if no longer having a desire turns into breaking covenants then I do think discipline up to and including excommunication may be warranted. 

There are penalties for breaking covenants.  Not wanting to keep them is a different issue.

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I voted other.  I think it is so weird for people to put all their focus on the mortal world and be so blase about the next stage.  Remember what Joseph Smith said about "leaving neutral ground" ?   Then they will be worse off than the average mud grovelor.

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40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If I left the Church every time I didn't want to keep my covenants, I'd be mouldy from all the rebaptisms ...

I would qualify it as full and long lasting rejection of them, not just a lack of desire.  I think I would wait several months to make sure it was a solid change of belief if it happened relatively quickly.

My daughter is not a Christian at this point in her life, she is agnostic on it.  We tease each other she is pagan but it is more lack of belief in anything spiritual. (She knows her emotions and thoughts are dominated by physical causes, such as massive depression and anxiety so her position is quite reasonable for her experience)

We talked about whether or not she should resign.  She is leaving it up to me as it doesn't matter to her.  Part of me feels she should just for that reason...it has no spiritual meaning for her, just family meaning because she does not recognize any need to take upon the name of Christ, but she lives the standards of the Church, especially love one another.  

At this point I consider resigning has a lot of baggage attached to it that will communicate to extended family members something she doesn't want to convey....there is no rejection or rebellion on her part, just no recognition or investment.  So we decided for now no resignation.  She believes in what Christ wants for us, the best and most joyful life possible, so I am thinking of her belonging in that fashion.

Edited by Calm
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17 minutes ago, longview said:

I voted other.  I think it is so weird for people to put all their focus on the mortal world and be so blase about the next stage.  Remember what Joseph Smith said about "leaving neutral ground" ?   Then they will be worse off than the average mud grovelor.

Many stay for their spouse/family. I think God will be forgiving to that person. I give them loads of credit and my empathy for being able to mentally cope with this existance. But that's what harmful institutions do to families. Make people so afraid of divorce or losing family because of their disbelief in a organization. That kind of organization is a scary thing. 

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Quote

Respect the covenants that he/she made and resign membership from the church.

Remain a member, don't make a fuss, and participate in whatever capacity or activity level he/she can.

Share his/her position and beliefs with the Bishop, and accept his counsel on the matter.

None of the above.

Postpone any decision-making as long as you feel so-inclined.  When confronted, play dumb or deflect with a smile.  8)

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If I left the Church every time I didn't want to keep my covenants, I'd be mouldy from all the rebaptisms ...

I wish we did rebaptisms at times...the Sacrament for me feels very private, but limited as we move on so quickly.  There is something very soulful and complete about immersion as the sign of the covenant.

Edited by Calm
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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would qualify it as full and long lasting rejection of them, not just a lack of desire.  I think I would wait several months to make sure it was a solid change of belief if it happened relatively quickly.

My daughter is not a Christian at this point in her life, she is agnostic on it.  We tease each other she is pagan but it is more lack of belief in anything spiritual. (She knows her emotions are dominated by physical causes, such as massive depression and anxiety so her position is quite reasonable for her experience)

We talked about whether or not she should resign.  She is leaving it up to me as it doesn't matter to her.  Part of me feels she should just for that reason...it has no spiritual meaning for her, just family meaning because she does not recognize any need to take upon the name of Christ, but she lives the standards of the Church, especially love one another.  

At this point I consider resigning has a lot of baggage attached to it that will communicate to extended family members something she doesn't want to convey....there is no rejection or rebellion on her part, just no recognition or investment.  So we decided for now no resignation.  She believes in what Christ wants for us, the best and most joyful life possible, so I am thinking of her belonging in that fashion.

Impeccable reasoning, and (aside from not being set in stone) it has the advantage of doing minimal harm to everyone.

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would qualify it as full and long lasting rejection of them, not just a lack of desire.  I think I would wait several months to make sure it was a solid change of belief if it happened relatively quickly.

I've seen far too many people come back after years, often decades, away to think that one can be 'sure' after several months. And I genuinely believe that many if not most Saints who wander will return at some point. Better to leave the ordinances in place unless there is need to free the person from them for her/his own spiritual growth.

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is something very soulful about immersion as the sign of the covenant.

One of the reaons I love being baptised for my kindred dead!

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would qualify it as full and long lasting rejection of them, not just a lack of desire.  I think I would wait several months to make sure it was a solid change of belief if it happened relatively quickly.

My daughter is not a Christian at this point in her life, she is agnostic on it.  We tease each other she is pagan but it is more lack of belief in anything spiritual. (She knows her emotions and thoughts are dominated by physical causes, such as massive depression and anxiety so her position is quite reasonable for her experience)

We talked about whether or not she should resign.  She is leaving it up to me as it doesn't matter to her.  Part of me feels she should just for that reason...it has no spiritual meaning for her, just family meaning because she does not recognize any need to take upon the name of Christ, but she lives the standards of the Church, especially love one another.  

At this point I consider resigning has a lot of baggage attached to it that will communicate to extended family members something she doesn't want to convey....there is no rejection or rebellion on her part, just no recognition or investment.  So we decided for now no resignation.  She believes in what Christ wants for us, the best and most joyful life possible, so I am thinking of her belonging in that fashion.

You are doing it right Calm, what a wonderful reaction you have given your daughter! After reading on exMormon Reddit, there are young adults that get treated horribly for disbelief. Even their future is in the hands of if they stay in the church, because if they don't believe there would be no help financially for school etc. She's a lucky girl. I wish her the best, and it sounds like she isn't faking it till she makes it like so many youth try to do. I think the millennials are a different group than when I was their ages. 

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If an endowed member no longer has a desire to keep his/her covenants, or retain a temple recommend, but likes being a Mormon, what should he/she do?

This seems like an odd scenario, but one that I can only consider means the person is not being honest with themselves. If they don't like keeping covenants, but like being a 'Mormon', that suggests that it is purely for the social, community aspects.  So, for that person, there's no problem with attending church to socialize and support active family members, and it's up to them if they want to keep living and doing what they need to to keep their recommend. If they have an active, believing spouse, I think they have obligations to that person to not abandon the promises they made. 

But if it's all a lie--they aren't paying tithing, aren't keeping the word of wisdom or law of chastity or the commandments and they have to lie to get a recommend, then they are better off not attending the temple anymore and letting their recommend lapse, than being deceptive to try to keep it.  That cankers the soul and doesn't do believing family members any favors.  It just isolates them because they know it's a lie also,  but no one else does, and that's a lonely and difficult situation to put them in.

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As to resignation:  In my opinion, there is no reason someone should feel they have to resign their membership, unless they don't want to be a member any longer.  Even if they are endowed and no longer want to keep their covenants, I think they can and should still remain on the records (unless church leaders decide to hold a disciplinary court and then it's not their decision any longer).  There are plenty of members who no longer attend or believe--many were endowed;  and unless they are annoyed with still being on the records of the church, I think they don't need to resign--but they'll have to put up with the occasional visits from members checking up on them and inviting them to come back.  And just maybe, one day they will feel the spirit urging them to do so and they'll act on it.

I've known lots of people who have come back, and I'm glad they were still in the records so they had occasional contact with their ward members and leaders to help them return.

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If an endowed member no longer has a desire to keep his/her covenants, or retain a temple recommend, but likes being a Mormon, what should he/she do?

I chose option 2 but honestly the answer probably has more to do with the "why" an endowed member no longer has a desire to keep covenants and a TR.

For example, does the person see the church an important factor in the covenant made with God? Does he view the covenant as a legitimate covenant? Does he care about the church? Does he care about God?

Everyone's faith journey is unique, much more than I used to think. So each individual must decide for him/herself as to the role of the church in his faith journey. Temple/covenants/ordinances are a piece of that relationship.

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