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...so much evidence that peoples mismangnement and downright not caring is causing present extinctions...

...justify planetary mismanagement as the will of God...

I'll never be able to get on this bandwagon, as long as we see climate change happening on Mars, or charts like this:

Image result for extinction over time

 

With a small handful of exceptions we can all count on one hand, God has forced every single living creature on earth, to die at some point.  Death is part of it.  And more than individual critters.  Species die off.  Cultures die off.  Genetic traits inherent in various peoples die off.  Emotional appeals that rely on characterizing humans as not caring or in need of justification for nefarious things?  Looks too much like plain old externalized self-hate for my tastes.  

I am comfortable with the notion that I will be personally held accountable for how I have treated people/critters/things in my stewardship.  And to a certain extent, I'm responsible for my portion of my culture's practices regarding raising animals for meat.  But yeah, I am doubting I'll be held accountable for species that went extinct during my life.  Because you can't sin without agency, and you can't have agency without choice.  

Full disclosure: I live on a hobby farm, and my wife and daughters raise chickens and turkeys.  You know what can be cruel?  Not butchering chickens in the fall.  Because that means you're forcing something to survive through the winter.  And winter can suck for critters.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Sure.

In the dinosaurs we can see a similitude of our own existence. They were brought here to populate the earth by their god, Rexoheim, and given physical bodies to house their spirits. After a really long time, Rex decides to start the dinosaur apocalypse with an asteroid, after which the earth is returned to its paradisiacal glory and for a thousand years dinosaurs roam the earth in peace and tranquility. Now the worthy ones are off living together forever as a dinosaur family and organizing other planets to give physical bodies to more dinosaur spirits and the cycle starts all over. Each time they are finished with a world, our God moves in  makes a few changes and starts bringing humans to the earth. 

This explains how the earth can be only 6000 years old, have no death before the fall and have dinosaur bones from hundreds of thousands of years back.

That's my theory at least.

 

 

I would prefer that you don’t shorten the name of Rexoheim.  It’s disrespectful.

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1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'll never be able to get on this bandwagon, as long as we see climate change happening on Mars, or charts like this:

Image result for extinction over time

 

With a small handful of exceptions we can all count on one hand, God has forced every single living creature on earth, to die at some point.  Death is part of it.  And more than individual critters.  Species die off.  Cultures die off.  Genetic traits inherent in various peoples die off.  Emotional appeals that rely on characterizing humans as not caring or in need of justification for nefarious things?  Looks too much like plain old externalized self-hate for my tastes.  

I am comfortable with the notion that I will be personally held accountable for how I have treated people/critters/things in my stewardship.  And to a certain extent, I'm responsible for my portion of my culture's practices regarding raising animals for meat.  But yeah, I am doubting I'll be held accountable for species that went extinct during my life.  Because you can't sin without agency, and you can't have agency without choice.  

Full disclosure: I live on a hobby farm, and my wife and daughters raise chickens and turkeys.  You know what can be cruel?  Not butchering chickens in the fall.  Because that means you're forcing something to survive through the winter.  And winter can suck for critters.

My chickens are just coming out of their 4th winter.  They didn’t complain at all about the cold.

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21 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

You mean created first spiritually?   A finite number of spirits .would be reasonable but finite is really not a Godly concept it is much more human way of seeing. 
Less concerned when a species goes extinct? No not really because there is so much evidence that peoples mismangnement and downright not caring is causing present extinctions.


 

Yes, so just as LDS leaders used to promote more child-bearing to bring spirits to Earth and using contraception was rebellion, so would causing extinction be a failure to actuate all the spirit organisms created by the LDS God.

Also, the ¨asteroid theory¨ is solidly backed by extensive evidence.  In order to conclude any particular species went extinct due to running out of organism spirits, you would have to show that the species was robust in numbers and fertility with no significant threats and that all the mating age adults were still mating but simultaneously stopped producing despite all this.

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Also, way too many Christians seem to have betrayed their duty to be a keeper of the Garden/Earth. Let´s not try to find a way out of our obvious responsibility for the extinction of species by saying ¨God did it¨.

I know the OP was just spitballing, but I had to say this. Thanks.

Edited by Joshua Valentine
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2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'll never be able to get on this bandwagon, as long as we see climate change happening on Mars, or charts like this:

Image result for extinction over time

 

With a small handful of exceptions we can all count on one hand, God has forced every single living creature on earth, to die at some point.  Death is part of it.  And more than individual critters.  Species die off.  Cultures die off.  Genetic traits inherent in various peoples die off.  Emotional appeals that rely on characterizing humans as not caring or in need of justification for nefarious things?  Looks too much like plain old externalized self-hate for my tastes.  

I am comfortable with the notion that I will be personally held accountable for how I have treated people/critters/things in my stewardship.  And to a certain extent, I'm responsible for my portion of my culture's practices regarding raising animals for meat.  But yeah, I am doubting I'll be held accountable for species that went extinct during my life.  Because you can't sin without agency, and you can't have agency without choice.  

Full disclosure: I live on a hobby farm, and my wife and daughters raise chickens and turkeys.  You know what can be cruel?  Not butchering chickens in the fall.  Because that means you're forcing something to survive through the winter.  And winter can suck for critters.

This thread should not sidetrack into a human-caused-climate-change discussion. I will just say, specifically since I did bring up Christian neglect of duty to ¨take care¨ of the Garden/Earth, that there´s more to human culpability in animal extinction than ¨climate change¨ (in fact, no one doubts climates change [on Earth or Mars]: human-caused climate change is where most detractors detract).

To your other point, that is OP relevant: It is not surprising that you do not see your responsibility if you do not see that you had a choice - that would be a truism.  However, there are plenty of humans, Christian, LDS Christian, or otherwise, who knowingly put horrible things into the environment or carelessly used up the environment without concern for whether such actions in themselves were moral. Whether or not you think any or all of the actions of the industrial and post-industrial age have actually led to anything world-wide, the individual acts themselves are either in keeping with God´s will for us to ¨take care¨ of the Garden/Earth or they are not.

Also, just because God allows something to die, does not mean God killed it, nor that it was God´s will that it die. Also, just because there have been mass extinction events does not mean that all extinctions are God´s doing.  Again, there are facts, there is evidence, there is no need to generalize guilt or innocence.  And there is no need to blame the LDS God for not making any more organism spirits.

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1 hour ago, TheRedHen said:

My chickens are just coming out of their 4th winter.  They didn’t complain at all about the cold.

You feeding 'em laced brownies or something?  My wife's chickens complain about everything, summer or winter!

 

6 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

However, there are plenty of humans, Christian, LDS Christian, or otherwise, who knowingly put horrible things into the environment or carelessly used up the environment without concern for whether such actions in themselves were moral. Whether or not you think any or all of the actions of the industrial and post-industrial age have actually led to anything world-wide, the individual acts themselves are either in keeping with God´s will for us to ¨take care¨ of the Garden/Earth or they are not.

"carelessly used up"
"without concern"

Maybe it's just me, but again, arguments based off of what must be going on inside someone's head, just lose me.  If you're gonna gripe, gripe about using stuff up.   Or do you think it's ok to use up the environment, as long as it's done carefully, and with concern?

Because that's what I do on the Loudmouth Ranch for Raising Yummy Chickens.   We love the crap out of our chickens.  We even pet them and sing to them.  And then we use them up as food.  Carefully, and with concern.  There's always another dozen chickens.  

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34 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

You feeding 'em laced brownies or something?  My wife's chickens complain about everything, summer or winter!

 

"carelessly used up"
"without concern"

Maybe it's just me, but again, arguments based off of what must be going on inside someone's head, just lose me.  If you're gonna gripe, gripe about using stuff up.   Or do you think it's ok to use up the environment, as long as it's done carefully, and with concern?

Because that's what I do on the Loudmouth Ranch for Raising Yummy Chickens.   We love the crap out of our chickens.  We even pet them and sing to them.  And then we use them up as food.  Carefully, and with concern.  There's always another dozen chickens.  

Perhaps I could have given some examples to specify what I meant by ¨carelessly used up¨ and ¨without concern¨, but you could also avoid taking my statements as attacks on you.

Again the ¨use up¨ you are using here is a truism, it is unavoidable. And you chicken example is an example of not ¨using up¨ or else there would not be ¨always another dozen chickens¨ - using up means exhausting - no chickens left. The fact that this is the second time you´ve defended yourself when no one has attacked you and the second time you´ve used truisms for arguments, and that you used such a poor understanding of the simple phrase ¨used up¨ indicates that perhaps we should end this line of discussion here.

For the record:
¨Carelessly use up¨ is fishing without minding replenishment rates and, instead, going on to another part of the sea when the bay has no more fish (with no apparent learning from what caused the bay to become fishless). ¨Without concern¨ would be dumping waste into streams - just that, just dumping junk that´s going to do who knows what, who knows where down the river somewhere to somebody else is ¨without concern¨. There is no mind-reading required here - it is self-evident in the actions themselves that no, or at least insufficient, care or concern is occurring.

Back to the OP:

So, hopefully, we´ve determined that God is not to blame for extinction by limiting the supply of spirits. The questions become, did God make organism spirits without regard for extinctions? If organism spirits ¨progress¨, will the unbodied spirits be disadvantaged? Does the LDS God have knowledge of the future in order to make just the right number of spirits?

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On 4/15/2019 at 3:29 PM, cinepro said:

The idea that everything was created first spiritually is problematic for the theory of evolution, so if you're going to believe the former and eschew the latter, you've already ventured into a much larger conversation.........................................................

The notion of a fine material spiritual creation is based on the idea of a template to be followed in the physical creation which follows the template.  What that template consists of is no more clear than the nature of dark matter and dark energy.  We cannot see it, but it must be there.

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5 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

...........................................................................

Image result for extinction over time

............................................

So what we have are six major extinctions:

1.  End Ordovician, 444 million years ago, 86% of species lost

2.  Late Devonian, 375 million years ago, 75% of species lost

3.  End Permian, 251 million years ago, 96% of species lost

4.  End Triassic, 200 million years ago, 80% of species lost

5.  End Cretaceous, 66 million years ago, 76% of all species lost

6.  Current mass extinction underway, 100% of species to be lost

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16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

6.  Current mass extinction underway, 100% of species to be lost

The deal with #6, is even if you're just being silly, even if you're just alluding to us being in the last dispensation and things are wrapping up, there are plenty of folks (Christian or not) out there who believe it for realsies.  Setting aside the 'last dispensation' aspect of things, point #6 is crazy talk, unsupported by science, and refuted by simply looking out the window.  Unless you're of a certain ideological bent, then you see evidence of it happening everywhere, and you probably blame white men, or the West, or getting vaccinated, or GMO crops, or some such.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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23 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

The deal with #6, is even if you're just being silly, even if you're just alluding to us being in the last dispensation and things are wrapping up, there are plenty of folks (Christian or not) out there who believe it for realsies.  Setting aside the 'last dispensation' aspect of things, point #6 is crazy talk, unsupported by science, and refuted by simply looking out the window.  Unless you're of a certain ideological bent, then you see evidence of it happening everywhere, and you probably blame white men, or the West, or getting vaccinated, or GMO crops, or some such.

I wasn't kidding, and it may even be worse than any of us have thought:  We may have crossed over from the Holocene to the Anthropocene in living memory -- https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/great-debate-over-when-anthropocene-started/587194/?utm_source=pocket-newtab .

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On 4/17/2019 at 9:12 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

The deal with #6, is even if you're just being silly, even if you're just alluding to us being in the last dispensation and things are wrapping up, there are plenty of folks (Christian or not) out there who believe it for realsies.  Setting aside the 'last dispensation' aspect of things, point #6 is crazy talk, unsupported by science, and refuted by simply looking out the window.  Unless you're of a certain ideological bent, then you see evidence of it happening everywhere, and you probably blame white men, or the West, or getting vaccinated, or GMO crops, or some such.

The day before the flood of Noah: His silly boat building is refuted by looking out the window. It is not even that cloudy.

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25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The day before the flood of Noah: His silly boat building is refuted by looking out the window. It is not even that cloudy.

I thought no species went extinct with the flood...

And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

(and all that)

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I wasn't kidding, and it may even be worse than any of us have thought:  We may have crossed over from the Holocene to the Anthropocene in living memory -- https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/great-debate-over-when-anthropocene-started/587194/?utm_source=pocket-newtab .

That's interesting reading.  At least as interesting as this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/1969/02/23/archives/science-worrying-about-a-new-ice-age.html

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1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I thought no species went extinct with the flood...

And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

(and all that)

3bd3d1a28f0ac586d253f0f46eb72fd7.png

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On 4/15/2019 at 5:41 PM, strappinglad said:

According to my reading the vast majority of species that ever lived went extinct before man placed his tender tootsies on the planet. Man can be quite efficient in removing species, but it should be remembered that when the pioneers crossed the plains there were about 400 million gophers. After 150+ YEARS OF SHOOTING, POISONING AND EXPLODING THE GOPHERS,  there are about ….400 million left. 

Ok. Now apply that analysis to the buffalo.

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ok. Now apply that analysis to the buffalo.

Yes, or the Passenger pigeon . At least there are a few Bison left. 

Edited by strappinglad

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- I believe the human race has caused the extinction of various species.
- I believe the extinction of various species is something that happens naturally, with or without humans on the planet.
- I believe that (as seen in the above chart), the vast, vast, vast majority of extinctions happen without human involvement.  (Need a few more vasts in there...)
- I do not automatically assume that humans causing a species to go extinct is some sort of blot on the human race, or me, or even the people holding the greatest responsibility in the matter.  

Yeah, I figure someone can treat critters with enough cruelty that they lose their place in heaven, because their actions speak to the state of their soul.  Wanton destruction might speak to the state of your soul too, whether things die or not.  But killing something (even an entire species) isn't necessarily cruel or wanton.  It might be, or it might not be.  Any non-vegan who disagrees is welcome to reflect on their diet after taking a few back-stage tours at abattoirs and slaughterhouses and meat processing plants.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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It's interesting to watch some latter day saints here using the arguments to the o/p that we aren't near the end, there isn't a finite number of spirits assigned to this earth, and things will continue as they always have.

I feel much better reading posts from those who are using the correct gospel principle of wise stewardship to address the o/p question of man made extinction.

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On 4/15/2019 at 2:27 PM, Metis_LDS said:

You mean created first spiritually?   A finite number of spirits .would be reasonable but finite is really not a Godly concept it is much more human way of seeing. 
 

Yeah I hate the distinction between infinite and finite.  A google is a finite number.  A one with a hundred zeros after it but in reality it is such a huge number that our minds can not conceive of a google of anything.  In all practical purposes, a google might as well be infinite. 

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On 4/18/2019 at 8:46 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

I stand corrected.  :)

I usually sit corrected.

Much more comfortable.

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