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Navidad

“Is a Christian a Christian;” instead of “Is a Mormon a Christian?”

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Posted (edited)

I am going to try very hard to ask this question well? I don’t want to irritate any of you; or hear you say with some disgust, “We have already answered that!” If I understood the answer, I wouldn’t ask the question again. It is as simple as that. Or maybe, it is simple because I am simple. I would only add in my defense that I really need to know and understand; and I don’t. I apologize in advance if that is offensive to any of you.

I came home very frustrated and sad from ward yesterday. As you all know it isn’t the first time; probably won’t be the last. I enjoy Sunday School and Sacrament. Elders Quorum is honestly, a whole different matter. Yesterday they (because I don’t engage) discussed President Oak’s talk from October. I remember 50 pages of interaction on that one talk on this forum.

I am pretty much done trying to understand the terms “salvation,” “saved,” “exaltation,” and “exalted” from an LDS perspective. It is too hard. So far, I have found at least six or seven different usages and meaning for the word “salvation” in LDS theology. Some co-mingle with exaltation, some do not. With no offense intended, it seems to me that many Saints don’t understand the different usages of the term salvation in LDS doctrine. If that is true, how can I possibly hope to put it all together? I can’t.

So, instead, I am trying to focus on and understand the use of the term “Christian” in LDS doctrine. I am not having much more success. I have a row of books on my shelf by both Saints and non-LDS Christians entitled in one form or another “Are Mormons Christians?” The answers contained in each vary depending on the author. I would say the answer is 50% in the affirmative and 50% in the negative, depending on the author, his or her purpose, scope, and beginning perspective. Most LDS sources, answer “yes.” I have made up my own mind on that, with an affirmative answer, so I am not struggling with that question.

I am still struggling with the question, do Mormons consider “Christians to be Christians” if they are not Mormon? Yesterday, there was a discussion in Elder’s Quorum about how wonderful “Chick-fil-A” is as a company. It was in the context of President Oak’s mention of gender and marriage.  Several men praised Chick-fil-A’s position on a host of issues. Several said they eat there every chance they get to support the message that Chick-fil-A is communicating which they see to be in-line with that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Even though I know Truett Cathy, the founder and president of the company, have preached in his church, slept in his home, and both my wife and I have spoken at one of his annual conferences for all his managers (a combination of business advice and old fashioned gospel meeting), I didn’t say a word. After the meeting, some of us were chatting and I stuck my toe into the water, or my foot into my mouth?  I asked them what they knew about Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A. They knew nothing. I explained he was a Southern Baptist elder and one of the Godliest men I have ever met. We discussed his firm commitment to his faith. They nodded their heads and smiled. Then I made a mistake. I asked a couple if they thought Truett Cathy was a Christian? They hemmed and hawed, and hawed and hemmed. One explained that “Brother Cathy” was a spirit brother with Christ. I explained that isn’t what I was asking. Did they believe he was a Christian? My next question was going to be, did they believe after all this time of knowing my wife (who, by the response from all the ladies who came up to her after) had given a beautiful testimony yesterday in Sacrament service and me, did they think we are Christians? However, I thought better of asking that. That would have been too uncomfortable for them and for me.

I don’t fear asking you all these questions so much. I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)? I am sure most of you know the witness of the company he founded and led. I can only fill in for you that he was a Southern Baptist Elder, a leader in his church, and a wonderful Godly man, married to a wonderful Godly woman for a hundred years, has a strong family, and was  right up there with the Godly Mormons I have known. There is no question in my mind he clearly identified as a Christian, part of the greater Christian family. So, in the LDS way of thinking, “Is a non-LDS Christian a Christian?” What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

Edited by Navidad
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Posted (edited)

Heck yes. That man is more Christian than I’ll ever be.

I think anyone who is doing their best to follow the teachings of Jesus and wants to be called a Christian should be.

Edited by SouthernMo

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20 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am going to try very hard to ask this question well? I don’t want to irritate any of you; or hear you say with some disgust, “We have already answered that!” If I understood the answer, I wouldn’t ask the question again. It is as simple as that. Or maybe, it is simple because I am simple. I would only add in my defense that I really need to know and understand; and I don’t. I apologize in advance if that is offensive to any of you.

I came home very frustrated and sad from ward yesterday. As you all know it isn’t the first time; probably won’t be the last. I enjoy Sunday School and Sacrament. Elders Quorum is honestly, a whole different matter. Yesterday they (because I don’t engage) discussed President Oak’s talk from October. I remember 50 pages of interaction on that one talk on this forum.

I am pretty much done trying to understand the terms “salvation,” “saved,” “exaltation,” and “exalted” from an LDS perspective. It is too hard. So far, I have found at least six or seven different usages and meaning for the word “salvation” in LDS theology. Some co-mingle with exaltation, some do not. With no offense intended, it seems to me that many Saints don’t understand the different usages of the term salvation in LDS doctrine. If that is true, how can I possibly hope to put it all together? I can’t.

I know I have explained this before, but I will attempt again. Before I begin I will note that you will receive various responses about this subject. I will answer from my understanding of scriptures such as D&C 76(see also 88):

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

Essentially, every kingdom of heaven is saved. Trying to use that as a differentiator is just going to confuse the reader. I feel the term gets thrown about too loosely in the Church. For instance the ordinances of the temple get referred to as saving ordinances. I just disagree. They have to do with exaltation rather than salvation, with the possible exception of baptisms for the dead. A person can get saved to the telestial kingdom without any of them. What does salvation mean to LDS? I don't really know. I feel the same about other Christians though. I believe it is a term which refers to be saved from Hell. We believe in accordance with Revelation that at some point before the final judgment Hell will give up its dead - I believe to be given one last chance at repentance. The vast majority of humanity will repent, but those who don't will become Sons of Perdition.

20 minutes ago, Navidad said:

So, instead, I am trying to focus on and understand the use of the term “Christian” in LDS doctrine. I am not having much more success. I have a row of books on my shelf by both Saints and non-LDS Christians entitled in one form or another “Are Mormons Christians?” The answers contained in each vary depending on the author. I would say the answer is 50% in the affirmative and 50% in the negative, depending on the author, his or her purpose, scope, and beginning perspective. Most LDS sources, answer “yes.” I have made up my own mind on that, with an affirmative answer, so I am not struggling with that question.

I am still struggling with the question, do Mormons consider “Christians to be Christians” if they are not Mormon? Yesterday, there was a discussion in Elder’s Quorum about how wonderful “Chick-fil-A” is as a company. It was in the context of President Oak’s mention of gender and marriage.  Several men praised Chick-fil-A’s position on a host of issues. Several said they eat there every chance they get to support the message that Chick-fil-A is communicating which they see to be in-line with that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Even though I know Truett Cathy, the founder and president of the company, have preached in his church, slept in his home, and both my wife and I have spoken at one of his annual conferences for all his managers (a combination of business advice and old fashioned gospel meeting), I didn’t say a word. After the meeting, some of us were chatting and I stuck my toe into the water, or my foot into my mouth?  I asked them what they knew about Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A. They knew nothing. I explained he was a Southern Baptist elder and one of the Godliest men I have ever met. We discussed his firm commitment to his faith. They nodded their heads and smiled. Then I made a mistake. I asked a couple if they thought Truett Cathy was a Christian? They hemmed and hawed, and hawed and hemmed. One explained that “Brother Cathy” was a spirit brother with Christ. I explained that isn’t what I was asking. Did they believe he was a Christian? My next question was going to be, did they believe after all this time of knowing my wife (who, by the response from all the ladies who came up to her after) had given a beautiful testimony yesterday in Sacrament service) and me, did they think we are Christians? However, I thought better of asking that. That would have been too uncomfortable for them and for me.

I don’t fear asking you all these questions so much. I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)? I am sure most of you know the witness of the company he founded and led. I can only fill in for you that he was a Southern Baptist Elder, a leader in his church, and a wonderful Godly man, married to a wonderful Godly woman for a hundred years, has a strong family, and was  right up there with the Godly Mormons I have known. There is no question in my mind he clearly identified as a Christian, part of the greater Christian family. So, in the LDS way of thinking, “Is a non-LDS Christian a Christian?” What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

I believe anyone who believes and tries to follow Christ is a Christian. Many have been misled by false teachings "of man" (spurred on by Satan) into false forms of Christianity, but however, are good people trying to follow Christ. There are many "shades" of Christianity and truth. This is true inside the Church of Jesus Christ as well. I will let Christ be the Judge of who He deems worthy of salvation. That is not up to me, nor whether they are "true Christians" or not. I will generally call anyone a Christian who considers themselves as such. 

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45 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am going to try very hard to ask this question well? I don’t want to irritate any of you; or hear you say with some disgust, “We have already answered that!” If I understood the answer, I wouldn’t ask the question again. It is as simple as that. Or maybe, it is simple because I am simple. I would only add in my defense that I really need to know and understand; and I don’t. I apologize in advance if that is offensive to any of you.

I came home very frustrated and sad from ward yesterday. As you all know it isn’t the first time; probably won’t be the last. I enjoy Sunday School and Sacrament. Elders Quorum is honestly, a whole different matter. Yesterday they (because I don’t engage) discussed President Oak’s talk from October. I remember 50 pages of interaction on that one talk on this forum.

I am pretty much done trying to understand the terms “salvation,” “saved,” “exaltation,” and “exalted” from an LDS perspective. It is too hard. So far, I have found at least six or seven different usages and meaning for the word “salvation” in LDS theology. Some co-mingle with exaltation, some do not. With no offense intended, it seems to me that many Saints don’t understand the different usages of the term salvation in LDS doctrine. If that is true, how can I possibly hope to put it all together? I can’t.

So, instead, I am trying to focus on and understand the use of the term “Christian” in LDS doctrine. I am not having much more success. I have a row of books on my shelf by both Saints and non-LDS Christians entitled in one form or another “Are Mormons Christians?” The answers contained in each vary depending on the author. I would say the answer is 50% in the affirmative and 50% in the negative, depending on the author, his or her purpose, scope, and beginning perspective. Most LDS sources, answer “yes.” I have made up my own mind on that, with an affirmative answer, so I am not struggling with that question.

I am still struggling with the question, do Mormons consider “Christians to be Christians” if they are not Mormon? Yesterday, there was a discussion in Elder’s Quorum about how wonderful “Chick-fil-A” is as a company. It was in the context of President Oak’s mention of gender and marriage.  Several men praised Chick-fil-A’s position on a host of issues. Several said they eat there every chance they get to support the message that Chick-fil-A is communicating which they see to be in-line with that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Even though I know Truett Cathy, the founder and president of the company, have preached in his church, slept in his home, and both my wife and I have spoken at one of his annual conferences for all his managers (a combination of business advice and old fashioned gospel meeting), I didn’t say a word. After the meeting, some of us were chatting and I stuck my toe into the water, or my foot into my mouth?  I asked them what they knew about Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A. They knew nothing. I explained he was a Southern Baptist elder and one of the Godliest men I have ever met. We discussed his firm commitment to his faith. They nodded their heads and smiled. Then I made a mistake. I asked a couple if they thought Truett Cathy was a Christian? They hemmed and hawed, and hawed and hemmed. One explained that “Brother Cathy” was a spirit brother with Christ. I explained that isn’t what I was asking. Did they believe he was a Christian? My next question was going to be, did they believe after all this time of knowing my wife (who, by the response from all the ladies who came up to her after) had given a beautiful testimony yesterday in Sacrament service and me, did they think we are Christians? However, I thought better of asking that. That would have been too uncomfortable for them and for me.

I don’t fear asking you all these questions so much. I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)? I am sure most of you know the witness of the company he founded and led. I can only fill in for you that he was a Southern Baptist Elder, a leader in his church, and a wonderful Godly man, married to a wonderful Godly woman for a hundred years, has a strong family, and was  right up there with the Godly Mormons I have known. There is no question in my mind he clearly identified as a Christian, part of the greater Christian family. So, in the LDS way of thinking, “Is a non-LDS Christian a Christian?” What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

If someone claims to be a Christian, I think you should call them a Christian. 

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52 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don’t fear asking you all these questions so much. I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)? I am sure most of you know the witness of the company he founded and led. I can only fill in for you that he was a Southern Baptist Elder, a leader in his church, and a wonderful Godly man, married to a wonderful Godly woman for a hundred years, has a strong family, and was  right up there with the Godly Mormons I have known. There is no question in my mind he clearly identified as a Christian, part of the greater Christian family. So, in the LDS way of thinking, “Is a non-LDS Christian a Christian?” What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

First of all, the word Christian is not defined in the Bible. It was applied to the believers, evidently by nonbelievers, in Antioch according to Acts 11:26. By that account anyone who professes Christ as their Lord and Savior would be known as Christians.  You said that Truett Cathy was one of the Godliest men you know (and almost surely professes that Christ is his Lord and Savior) and would fit the definition in both word and deed. So, in my opinion, Truett Cathy and any other person that professes that Jesus the Christ is Lord, Savior, and Redeemer is a Christian at least in word and those who follow the precepts that Christ taught are Christians in word and deed.

However I really do not get uptight about the term because it is just a label that tells nothing about what is actually in the heart and God is the judge of that. I am too bust trying to get that beam out of my eye, and wouln't you know it, it has a lot of splinters.

Glenn

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I am going to try very hard to ask this question well? I don’t want to irritate any of you; or hear you say with some disgust, “We have already answered that!” If I understood the answer, I wouldn’t ask the question again. It is as simple as that. Or maybe, it is simple because I am simple. I would only add in my defense that I really need to know and understand; and I don’t. I apologize in advance if that is offensive to any of you.

I came home very frustrated and sad from ward yesterday. As you all know it isn’t the first time; probably won’t be the last. I enjoy Sunday School and Sacrament. Elders Quorum is honestly, a whole different matter. Yesterday they (because I don’t engage) discussed President Oak’s talk from October. I remember 50 pages of interaction on that one talk on this forum.

I am pretty much done trying to understand the terms “salvation,” “saved,” “exaltation,” and “exalted” from an LDS perspective. It is too hard. So far, I have found at least six or seven different usages and meaning for the word “salvation” in LDS theology. Some co-mingle with exaltation, some do not. With no offense intended, it seems to me that many Saints don’t understand the different usages of the term salvation in LDS doctrine. If that is true, how can I possibly hope to put it all together? I can’t.

So, instead, I am trying to focus on and understand the use of the term “Christian” in LDS doctrine. I am not having much more success. I have a row of books on my shelf by both Saints and non-LDS Christians entitled in one form or another “Are Mormons Christians?” The answers contained in each vary depending on the author. I would say the answer is 50% in the affirmative and 50% in the negative, depending on the author, his or her purpose, scope, and beginning perspective. Most LDS sources, answer “yes.” I have made up my own mind on that, with an affirmative answer, so I am not struggling with that question.

I am still struggling with the question, do Mormons consider “Christians to be Christians” if they are not Mormon? Yesterday, there was a discussion in Elder’s Quorum about how wonderful “Chick-fil-A” is as a company. It was in the context of President Oak’s mention of gender and marriage.  Several men praised Chick-fil-A’s position on a host of issues. Several said they eat there every chance they get to support the message that Chick-fil-A is communicating which they see to be in-line with that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Even though I know Truett Cathy, the founder and president of the company, have preached in his church, slept in his home, and both my wife and I have spoken at one of his annual conferences for all his managers (a combination of business advice and old fashioned gospel meeting), I didn’t say a word. After the meeting, some of us were chatting and I stuck my toe into the water, or my foot into my mouth?  I asked them what they knew about Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A. They knew nothing. I explained he was a Southern Baptist elder and one of the Godliest men I have ever met. We discussed his firm commitment to his faith. They nodded their heads and smiled. Then I made a mistake. I asked a couple if they thought Truett Cathy was a Christian? They hemmed and hawed, and hawed and hemmed. One explained that “Brother Cathy” was a spirit brother with Christ. I explained that isn’t what I was asking. Did they believe he was a Christian? My next question was going to be, did they believe after all this time of knowing my wife (who, by the response from all the ladies who came up to her after) had given a beautiful testimony yesterday in Sacrament service and me, did they think we are Christians? However, I thought better of asking that. That would have been too uncomfortable for them and for me.

I don’t fear asking you all these questions so much. I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)? I am sure most of you know the witness of the company he founded and led. I can only fill in for you that he was a Southern Baptist Elder, a leader in his church, and a wonderful Godly man, married to a wonderful Godly woman for a hundred years, has a strong family, and was  right up there with the Godly Mormons I have known. There is no question in my mind he clearly identified as a Christian, part of the greater Christian family. So, in the LDS way of thinking, “Is a non-LDS Christian a Christian?” What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

I did not wish to include your entire post, but in this case it seemed necessary. I first came unto Jesus Christ, on December 21, 1972, in a Baptist Church. I remember that date, as that Church gave me a Bible with that date.in it. I grew up in the home of a Baptist Minister (my Father), and I can assure you, my parents were Christians. I was a Christian as well, before becoming a Latter-day Saint, and at the age of 19, began preaching in the Baptist Church. All who believe Jesus Christ, as their Lord and Savior are Christians, by it’s very definition. Being LDS, many (like President Hickley who once said), “if there be Christians, we are they”. He said this as have others have, who do so because of frustration, and the constant attacks from Evangelicals, who state otherwise, calling us a cult. Salvation (or general slacation) is being saved from “death and hell”. Salvation to Latter-day Saints, is defined as exultation, as this is our stated goal, and should be our objective. But a loving God has prepared a place for all his children, due to the atonement of Christ our Savior, with the exception of the “Sons of perdition”. Wherever we end up, is our choice, as God will force no one into his greatest blessings. Which is why he allows his children to choose even after death.  

One important thing to remember is that every teacher is a volunteer, and does the best he or her can. Very often quote mining to reflect what they which to convey. Even when choosing a General Conference address, they choose aspects (or quotes) that emphasize their strongest views. I did not leave the Baptist Church because I did not like it, in fact I love it! Nor did I leave it because it was not filled with good people, or Christian people. I left because I knew the Book of Mormon, was indeed the word of God, and the Baptist Church did not have it. Also as the Bible teaches, and as my Father taught me, “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God”.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Navidad said:

So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)?

What kind of Christian do you mean: a self-identified Christian, a devout Christian, a Christmas-and-Easter Christian, a Born Again Christian, a struggling Christian, an unorthodox Christian, etc.?

I don't mean to hem and haw, but the term "Christian" covers quite a bit of ground. It entirely depends on how you define it.

For example, do you think it is possible for someone to be a professed Christian without being an authentic Christian? (honest question)

As far as the church goes, Latter-day Saints tend to accept anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as a Christian.

And how are we to know if someone truly believes in Jesus? The best we can do in mortality is follow the Savior's observation:

        By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

So, yes, I think Dan Cathy is a Christian - just like the millions of other people throughout the world who are trying to build a relationship with and follow our Savior Jesus Christ.

 

Edited by Amulek
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I think we have to keep an open mind and a broad definition of the word Christian, which can mean anyone who believes in and tries to follow the teachings and principles of Christ as taught in the Bible.
Also, "ye shall know them by their fruits" is another good indicator. All this regardless of which church they belong to. 

 
 

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Like everyone else, I've never thought a non LDS wasn't ever a Christian. I've always known them to be a Christian if they believe in Jesus Christ, whatever their religion.

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Posted (edited)

Sometimes I wish Elder McConkie was alive and posted here. :vader:

Edited by The Nehor
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Navidad said:

What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

The questions you ask assume a uniform view as to what it means to be a Mormon. Since you have been around us a lot, you should know that simply is not true. So the answers you get here will be as diverse and wrong as the ones you can get in a ward house.

 

My opinion is that if we could ask Christ, he would tell us he cares very little for labels and is more concerned with how we treat our fellow human beings.

Edited by CA Steve
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5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am going to try very hard to ask this question well? I don’t want to irritate any of you; or hear you say with some disgust, “We have already answered that!” If I understood the answer, I wouldn’t ask the question again. It is as simple as that. Or maybe, it is simple because I am simple. I would only add in my defense that I really need to know and understand; and I don’t. I apologize in advance if that is offensive to any of you.

I came home very frustrated and sad from ward yesterday. As you all know it isn’t the first time; probably won’t be the last. I enjoy Sunday School and Sacrament. Elders Quorum is honestly, a whole different matter. Yesterday they (because I don’t engage) discussed President Oak’s talk from October. I remember 50 pages of interaction on that one talk on this forum.

I am pretty much done trying to understand the terms “salvation,” “saved,” “exaltation,” and “exalted” from an LDS perspective. It is too hard. So far, I have found at least six or seven different usages and meaning for the word “salvation” in LDS theology. Some co-mingle with exaltation, some do not. With no offense intended, it seems to me that many Saints don’t understand the different usages of the term salvation in LDS doctrine. If that is true, how can I possibly hope to put it all together? I can’t.

So, instead, I am trying to focus on and understand the use of the term “Christian” in LDS doctrine. I am not having much more success. I have a row of books on my shelf by both Saints and non-LDS Christians entitled in one form or another “Are Mormons Christians?” The answers contained in each vary depending on the author. I would say the answer is 50% in the affirmative and 50% in the negative, depending on the author, his or her purpose, scope, and beginning perspective. Most LDS sources, answer “yes.” I have made up my own mind on that, with an affirmative answer, so I am not struggling with that question.

I am still struggling with the question, do Mormons consider “Christians to be Christians” if they are not Mormon? Yesterday, there was a discussion in Elder’s Quorum about how wonderful “Chick-fil-A” is as a company. It was in the context of President Oak’s mention of gender and marriage.  Several men praised Chick-fil-A’s position on a host of issues. Several said they eat there every chance they get to support the message that Chick-fil-A is communicating which they see to be in-line with that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Even though I know Truett Cathy, the founder and president of the company, have preached in his church, slept in his home, and both my wife and I have spoken at one of his annual conferences for all his managers (a combination of business advice and old fashioned gospel meeting), I didn’t say a word. After the meeting, some of us were chatting and I stuck my toe into the water, or my foot into my mouth?  I asked them what they knew about Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A. They knew nothing. I explained he was a Southern Baptist elder and one of the Godliest men I have ever met. We discussed his firm commitment to his faith. They nodded their heads and smiled. Then I made a mistake. I asked a couple if they thought Truett Cathy was a Christian? They hemmed and hawed, and hawed and hemmed. One explained that “Brother Cathy” was a spirit brother with Christ. I explained that isn’t what I was asking. Did they believe he was a Christian? My next question was going to be, did they believe after all this time of knowing my wife (who, by the response from all the ladies who came up to her after) had given a beautiful testimony yesterday in Sacrament service and me, did they think we are Christians? However, I thought better of asking that. That would have been too uncomfortable for them and for me.

I don’t fear asking you all these questions so much. I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)? I am sure most of you know the witness of the company he founded and led. I can only fill in for you that he was a Southern Baptist Elder, a leader in his church, and a wonderful Godly man, married to a wonderful Godly woman for a hundred years, has a strong family, and was  right up there with the Godly Mormons I have known. There is no question in my mind he clearly identified as a Christian, part of the greater Christian family. So, in the LDS way of thinking, “Is a non-LDS Christian a Christian?” What exactly does it mean to be a no kidding, real live Christian from a LDS perspective?

I define a Christian to be an individual who looks to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, who died on the cross to pay for the sins of all humanity, rose the third day, and will return again one day. I don't know if I have ever met a group of Mormons who had a problem identifying individuals with these beliefs to as Christians and also believed that Mormons were Christians based on the same definition.  

Haven't got a clue why this would be a problem in individuals in your ward. I don't comprehend it, but I can believe almost anything about humans. 

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Praising the CEO of a fast food company and endorsing its products is inappropriate in Elder’s Quorum. Then again in my Sunday School class I teach I had to cut off a discussion about how Pelosi was a Gadianton and how Trump was the anti-Christ. Why do people seem to take some perverse glee at dragging politics into our church meetings? Why are those who are most eager to do so also hopelessly ignorant about it in the first place?

What a horrible thing to bring up in church, politics is not even permitted on this discussion board, nor others devoted to defending our Faith. Whomever tried to (or did) interject politics in your Ward should be ashamed, and should have their Bishop warn them not to never  do so again. Church, any Church, is not a place to air political opinions, no matter their views. 

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My definition is someone who believes Christ is God/Son of God and atoned for our sins so I would consider anyone who believes that way to be Christian.

Then I met a woman online who identified as Christian, doesn't believe he is God, didn't atone for sins, but was just a prophet.  So do I consider her christian?  Not really, but if I were discussing her views with her I would respect that she identifies as christian because label wise she is technically correct even if she doesn't fit my definition. 

It's one of the reasons I don't worry if someone defines Christian with the necessity of God being Trinity and don't consider me Christian.  I figure Christ knows my heart and that's really all that matters.

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19 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

What a horrible thing to bring up in church, politics is not even permitted on this discussion board, nor others devoted to defending our Faith. Whomever tried to (or did) interject politics in your Ward should be ashamed, and should have their Bishop warn them not to never  do so again. Church, any Church, is not a place to air political opinions, no matter their views. 

Nah, my bishop has enough to worry about. I just shut it down real quickly while trying to make a joke about not letting politics come in. Neither of them have done it since.

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6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I only fear your scorn and disgust that I am asking something again. So, was Truett Cathy a Christian (in an Acts 11 sense)?

Of course.

A Christian is a disciple of Christ.  It's not determined by which pew your butt warms Sunday morning.  

Yes, having your butt warm *a* pew and being present (not just in body, but in entirely) does tend to help a person become a better disciple of Christ.  Being present at a pew where purer truth is being taught helps even more.  Same with reading your scriptures, making covenants with Him, etc.  

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Sometimes I wish Elder McConkie was alive and posted here. :vader:

Thankfully, people grow and change, had he lived longer he would have as well. Such as when he did under, President Spencer W Kimball, and the Priesthood for all worthy male members. Elder McConkie gave one of the greatest sermons I have even heard, just a few days before his death, a sermon that I carry in my briefcase every Sunday, most of which I have memorized. A sermon I played for my Mother, who was not a member, who found it wonderful, inspiring, and to use her words, “gave her a better understanding of the atonement, than she ever has”. Had Elder McConkie lived longer, I think he would ever evolved to become an even mightier man of God. I for one love the man. 

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why do people seem to take some perverse glee at dragging politics into our church meetings? Why are those who are most eager to do so also hopelessly ignorant about it in the first place?

Political ideology seems to put blinders on people where they can only see their own viewpoints. There is little to no rational political discussion. It mostly seems to be emotional. Political ideology seems to have become a sort of religion to all too many.

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Every Christian drinks from the living water from their rivulets and streams and rivers.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the ocean.

It is the major depository of living water on earth, though everyone has access to the water available locally.

I don't suppose that will work but I tried.

 

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9 hours ago, Navidad said:

So, instead, I am trying to focus on and understand the use of the term “Christian” in LDS doctrine. I am not having much more success. I have a row of books on my shelf by both Saints and non-LDS Christians entitled in one form or another “Are Mormons Christians?” The answers contained in each vary depending on the author. I would say the answer is 50% in the affirmative and 50% in the negative, depending on the author, his or her purpose, scope, and beginning perspective. Most LDS sources, answer “yes.” I have made up my own mind on that, with an affirmative answer, so I am not struggling with that question.

I am still struggling with the question, do Mormons consider “Christians to be Christians” if they are not Mormon? Yesterday, there was a discussion in Elder’s Quorum about how wonderful “Chick-fil-A” is as a company. It was in the context of President Oak’s mention of gender and marriage.  Several men praised Chick-fil-A’s position on a host of issues. Several said they eat there every chance they get to support the message that Chick-fil-A is communicating which they see to be in-line with that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So far, I don´t see any(?) references to anything that would be considered representative of LDS doctrine.  Just a bunch of individual answers to the second bolded question - what (individual) Mormons consider non-LDS Christians. While I am sure that the vast majority of LDS would and do call non-LDS Christians ¨Christians¨, this does not mean that they should, according to LDS teachings and doctrine.

Obviously, LDS doctrine says that the current non-LDS christian churches are (at best) apostate christian churches with apostate christians. But there are plenty of teachings, some scriptures, and previous temple material that (at worst) equates non-LDS Christianity to the church of the devil, being led by Satan, and thus not being Christian at all.  Other teachings by individual LDS prophets refer to ¨so-called Christians¨ (Brigham Young), ¨´Christian´ churches¨ (Joseph F. Smith - that´s quotation marks around Christian, implying it is only a label, and contrary to reality), that there were ¨no Christian churches [before the LDS Church was restored]¨ which implies there were no Christians either (Orson Pratt) and, only other church is ¨Babylon¨ (George Q. Cannon).
 

9 hours ago, Calm said:

If I heard any Saint suggesting other Christians were not Christian based on whether or not they were of my faith, I would have a hard time not letting them have it.  I think that would be the most ridiculous thing I have heard taught at Church if I heard it.  I think I have heard it one or twice on this board from some poster who had rather extreme views, but I think most fellow Saints would look at me bewildered about how I could even ask if other believers in Christ were Christian.  It is, imo, nonsensical.

Just because we can claim to be Christian doesn't mean we can deny the name to others.

LDS leaders up until, perhaps the 80s, were more than willing to do all of this and justified it by scripture and revelation, which is their jurisdiction. Although LDS prophets since then have said things that indicate that members do and should accept non-LDS Christians as Christians (Hinckley), they do not do it from scripture and revelation and interpretative justification (as the previous LDS prophets did).  So one could conclude that LDS Doctrine states that non-LDS Christians are not Christians, but for individual, personal interactions members will accept them (under a much broader, simpler, content-ignoring definition of Christian [see more on this next]).

 

9 hours ago, churchistrue said:

If someone claims to be a Christian, I think you should call them a Christian. 

Orson Pratt said:
¨But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be. They say, "We have built chapels unto the name of the Lord; we call our Churches Christian Churches, they are called the Church of Christ, St. John's Church, St. Paul's Church, St. Peter's Church, and after others of the ancient Apostles;" and one who had never studied the pattern which God has given of the Christian Church would almost really believe that they are Christian Churches.

This quote supports two things important to other comments here:

1) If self-proclaimed ¨Christian¨ churches are mistakenly called Christian, then their members would be, too.
2) The content  (¨pattern¨) of a church determines whether it is truly Christian, so the content of a believer is also relevant to whether they are a Christian. (this goes against the LDS argument for the simple definition of a Christian that allows them to accept anyone who claims to be, and counters this definition´s use against non-LDS Christians that argue that LDS are not Christians because of their LDS beliefs [content])

Question for thought: If a Christian, or for example Truett Cathy, supported organizations that send missionaries to LDS or warn non-LDS Christians that the LDS Church is not a Christian church, would you still consider that person a Christian?

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Every Christian drinks from the living water from their rivulets and streams and rivers.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the ocean.

It is the major depository of living water on earth, though everyone has access to the water available locally.

I don't suppose that will work but I tried.

 

The problem is that implies we are all drinking salt water.

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56 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

Question for thought: If a Christian, or for example Truett Cathy, supported organizations that send missionaries to LDS or warn non-LDS Christians that the LDS Church is not a Christian church, would you still consider that person a Christian?

How do you define “Christian”?

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