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The Nehor

Notre Dame on fire

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1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

This just sounds so callous. 

It was meant to be taken in a Quasimodo-Nehor spirit for a Barnum & Bailey world of kitsch and Las Vegas style replicas.

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A sad day. I don't know how many times a building undergoing renovations catches fire. Some workman leaves a pile of greasy or paint soaked rags near a heat source and poof. Electrical faults are often to blame also. Fire forensics are usually pretty good at spotting the flash point. 

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9 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

A sad day. I don't know how many times a building undergoing renovations catches fire. Some workman leaves a pile of greasy or paint soaked rags near a heat source and poof. Electrical faults are often to blame also. Fire forensics are usually pretty good at spotting the flash point. 

It is worse. Old buildings like this are particularly prone to fire when major renovation work is being done inside. If you are doing hot work (like welding) you are supposed to keep a fire watch going for X number of hours afterwards as a spark could catch later....particularly in the walls. Someone throws some trash in a corner later and it catches. Most companies are naturally trying to control expenses so they press their workers to ignore this kind of costly thing so the rules are often “forgotten” to avoid overtime and extra hours to be paid. If it was an accident due to safety laxity (most likely in my opinion) some worker or supervisor will be scapegoated for breaking the rules while higher ups encouraged him to do so.

You are right. They will very likely be able to figure out how it started.

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

.....he lit the Notre Dame cathedral on fire.....probably at the instigation of that gypsy witch.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47941794

So horrible, there was a time here in the South where Black Churches were burned. But sadly the son of a deputy sheriff was just recently here in Georgia, was arrested for setting fire to three historically Black Churches. He was arrested just last week, or two weeks ago. I remember when a Baptist Church was bombed in Birmingham Alabama, which killed four little girls. Everybody knew it was J.B. Stoner, but he got away with it for a long time. In the late 60’s, or early 70’s, the news covered the fact that an ice cream place, called “Kay’s Castle”, in our town was going to start selling ice cream to both Black and White. The same news station said that the bomber, J.B. Stoner was going to be there protesting. So, I asked my oldest brother to take me to town to buy some pants with money I earned. But my plan all along was to confront him, even though he was in a wheelchair. My brother let me out at the cloths store, and was looking for a place to park. Once out of the car, I starting running toward the ice cream store, once there I began reading him “the riot act”, so to speak, where he told me, “apparently your parents did not raise you tight”. At that point it starting getting very ugly, until my brother starting dragging me away. My brother was yelling at me, saying to me...”do you see those two men with him, they are his bodyguards, and most likely armed”. I have eternal pity for those who do such things, as they will face an angry God on judgement day.  

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If you want to understand what it takes to build one of these cathedrals I highly recommend the novel Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet.

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7 hours ago, strappinglad said:

A sad day. I don't know how many times a building undergoing renovations catches fire. Some workman leaves a pile of greasy or paint soaked rags near a heat source and poof. Electrical faults are often to blame also. Fire forensics are usually pretty good at spotting the flash point. 

 

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is worse. Old buildings like this are particularly prone to fire when major renovation work is being done inside. If you are doing hot work (like welding) you are supposed to keep a fire watch going for X number of hours afterwards as a spark could catch later....particularly in the walls. Someone throws some trash in a corner later and it catches. Most companies are naturally trying to control expenses so they press their workers to ignore this kind of costly thing so the rules are often “forgotten” to avoid overtime and extra hours to be paid. If it was an accident due to safety laxity (most likely in my opinion) some worker or supervisor will be scapegoated for breaking the rules while higher ups encouraged him to do so.

You are right. They will very likely be able to figure out how it started.

Actually, you don't even need a heat source. All you need is oily rags in a confined space, and they may spontaneously combust. If they were oiling down interior woodwork, and threw the rags in a pile, that could be the source of a fire. I was not trying to point the finger at any one group, however, I do consider the timing suspicious - especially on the eve of "holy week" and the other very recent spate of obvious desecration and destructive acts. Hopefully, it was not arson. I never did go in Notre Dame Cathedral. I just saw it from outside. IIRC it was under all kinds of scaffolding when I was there some 38 years ago. It was one of the last great examples of flying buttress architecture, and will now probably be demolished even if the remaining stone walls prove stable - unless Europe can drum itself up out of its secular sleep.

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18 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Today, in what may be the latest in a spike of anti-Christian fervor, the famous Notre Dame Cathedral of Paris burned. This fire so far is being labeled an accident, but suspiciously started right after the Cathedral closed to visitors for the day. This year there has been a sudden rash of desecrations and destructive activities especially at Catholic Churches in France. https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800  Although I am sometimes critical of various aspects of Catholic belief, I hold various Catholics as friends, and want them to know that I stand united with them against the perpetrators of such acts, and hope that they are found and made accountable. This apparent spike in either anti-religious or anti-Christian sentiment is troubling, and I do hope that all Christians will stand unitedly in condemnation of it, and wish to extend my sincerest sympathies to Catholics for what they must be feeling.

This is an unfounded conspiracy theory.

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Posted (edited)

I join with my French-Catholic family members (although, I am a Latter-day Saint, my family in France are not) in the real anguish of loss at this time.  Those windows alone caused me to weep yesterday.  If you did not get to see them, there is no way to express their majesty and beauty - all accented by the fact that many depicted scenes of faith and were ~800 years old.  The large rose windows - the majestic colors they imparted to the sanctuary were amazing and so peaceful to me.  The wood work, the organ, I literally feel as if I have lost a member of my family.  

 

Edited:  I just saw at least the rose windows seem to have survived!!!  What a blessing.

12334450-6926807-One_of_the_centuries_old_was_windows_apparently_still_intact_on_-a-16_1555405766417.jpg.6f9f045f6642cc64599efcf4243dd8b1.jpg

Edited by Maestrophil
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13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

If you want to understand what it takes to build one of these cathedrals I highly recommend the novel Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet.

They often took hundreds of years to build.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I join with my French-Catholic family members (although, I am a Latter-day Saint, my family in France are not) in the real anguish of loss at this time.  Those windows alone caused me to weep yesterday.  If you did not get to see them, there is no way to express their majesty and beauty - all accented by the fact that many depicted scenes of faith and were ~800 years old.  The large rose windows - the majestic colors they imparted to the sanctuary were amazing and so peaceful to me.  The wood work, the organ, I literally feel as if I have lost a member of my family.  

Moi aussi.

My eyes have seen those colors that no one will see again. You cannot duplicate them, they are gone forever.

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, Gray said:

This is an unfounded conspiracy theory.

Glad you know that. Unfortunately no one else does. 

I don't know how you find a flash point on a collapsed roof after it has all fallen a couple of hundred feet.

Or if the French would "want" to find it when it could cause, let's just say, more trouble than they already have.

Finding that flash point, could itself be the flashpoint for total chaos.

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32 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I join with my French-Catholic family members (although, I am a Latter-day Saint, my family in France are not) in the real anguish of loss at this time.  Those windows alone caused me to weep yesterday.  If you did not get to see them, there is no way to express their majesty and beauty - all accented by the fact that many depicted scenes of faith and were ~800 years old.  The large rose windows - the majestic colors they imparted to the sanctuary were amazing and so peaceful to me.  The wood work, the organ, I literally feel as if I have lost a member of my family.  

 

Edited:  I just saw at least the rose windows seem to have survived!!!  What a blessing.

12334450-6926807-One_of_the_centuries_old_was_windows_apparently_still_intact_on_-a-16_1555405766417.jpg.6f9f045f6642cc64599efcf4243dd8b1.jpg

Thank God!

Thanks!

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Glad you know that. Unfortunately no one else does. 

I don't know how you find a flash point on a collapsed roof after it has all fallen a couple of hundred feet.

Or if the French would "want" to find it when it could cause, let's just say, more trouble than they already have.

Finding that flash point, could itself be the flashpoint for total chaos. 

Like I said, unfounded. Thanks for demonstrating.

Right now there is no evidence to support this conspiracy theory. Lots of nincompoops on the internet trying to sow divisions started it up.

Edited by Gray
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3 hours ago, Gray said:

This is an unfounded conspiracy theory.

Absolutely not. It is reasonable suspicion imho, which calls for close investigation. Just the post above yours I said "Actually, you don't even need a heat source. All you need is oily rags in a confined space, and they may spontaneously combust. If they were oiling down interior woodwork, and threw the rags in a pile, that could be the source of a fire. I was not trying to point the finger at any one group, however, I do consider the timing suspicious - especially on the eve of "holy week" and the other very recent spate of obvious desecration and destructive acts. Hopefully, it was not arson." I also linked a Newsweek story on some recent cases which obviously included intentional desecration of Churches as well as cases including arson accepted as such by the French authorities. Another Church news outlet said:


"More than 10 churches have been hit since the beginning of February, with some set on fire while others were severely desecrated or damaged.

St. Sulpice, the second-largest church in Paris, after Notre Dame Cathedral, had the large wooden door on its southern transept set ablaze March 17.

Investigators confirmed March 18 that the fire was started deliberately, according to the website of the Vienna-based Observatory on Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe, an independent organization founded with the help of the Council of European Bishops’ Conferences.

In early February, in the Church of Notre-Dame-des-Enfants in Nimes, near the Spanish border, intruders drew a cross on a wall with excrement then stuck consecrated hosts to it." https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2019/03/28/vandals-arsonists-target-french-catholic-churches/

I believe it is reasonable to conclude from these increased incidents that Catholic Churches are being targeted. While it may be too early to include Notre Dame as a victim of terrorism, I do believe the timing to be suspicious, and warrants close inspection rather than dismissal. The workers were gone for at least an hour when the cathedral closed, so in all likelihood visitors were there for another hour and would have seen a fire started by workers - the fire alarm went off within 20 minutes of the closing time. Maybe cameras in or around the structure will provide clues, but so far seem to be lacking. Nevertheless the incident does follow a recent pattern, which I do find disturbing, and should not be simply dismissed as conspiracy theory. 

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No, your first post was a hair short of just assuming it was an intentional attack. Also, your suspicion is literally useless. They are obviously going to investigate and fire forensics have gotten very good. So I stand by saying that your assumptions of arson are unfounded and irresponsible. It is not like they are going to miss evidence of arson unless you stir stuff up on an obscure message board.

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Absolutely not. It is reasonable suspicion imho, which calls for close investigation. Just the post above yours I said "Actually, you don't even need a heat source. All you need is oily rags in a confined space, and they may spontaneously combust. If they were oiling down interior woodwork, and threw the rags in a pile, that could be the source of a fire. I was not trying to point the finger at any one group, however, I do consider the timing suspicious - especially on the eve of "holy week" and the other very recent spate of obvious desecration and destructive acts. Hopefully, it was not arson." I also linked a Newsweek story on some recent cases which obviously included intentional desecration of Churches as well as cases including arson accepted as such by the French authorities. Another Church news outlet said:


"More than 10 churches have been hit since the beginning of February, with some set on fire while others were severely desecrated or damaged.

St. Sulpice, the second-largest church in Paris, after Notre Dame Cathedral, had the large wooden door on its southern transept set ablaze March 17.

Investigators confirmed March 18 that the fire was started deliberately, according to the website of the Vienna-based Observatory on Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe, an independent organization founded with the help of the Council of European Bishops’ Conferences.

In early February, in the Church of Notre-Dame-des-Enfants in Nimes, near the Spanish border, intruders drew a cross on a wall with excrement then stuck consecrated hosts to it." https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2019/03/28/vandals-arsonists-target-french-catholic-churches/

I believe it is reasonable to conclude from these increased incidents that Catholic Churches are being targeted. While it may be too early to include Notre Dame as a victim of terrorism, I do believe the timing to be suspicious, and warrants close inspection rather than dismissal. The workers were gone for at least an hour when the cathedral closed, so in all likelihood visitors were there for another hour and would have seen a fire started by workers - the fire alarm went off within 20 minutes of the closing time. Maybe cameras in or around the structure will provide clues, but so far seem to be lacking. Nevertheless the incident does follow a recent pattern, which I do find disturbing, and should not be simply dismissed as conspiracy theory. 

If you're claiming it was arson by some shadowy cabal of anti-Catholics (the recent conspiracy theories include Satanists and Muslims) without evidence, then it's a conspiracy theory. Maybe wait until a thorough investigation is conducted?

White supremacists and other kooks are spreading this all over the place. Never let a tragedy go to waste, I guess.

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Btw, they are treating it as an accident,  although a team of investigators has also been set up.

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Just heard an estimate that it will take 10 to 20 years to restore Notre Dame, and that it will cost around 1 billion Euros.

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Might be a good idea to build the new roof out of materials that are less flammable, like steel. 

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7 hours ago, Gray said:

If you're claiming it was arson by some shadowy cabal of anti-Catholics (the recent conspiracy theories include Satanists and Muslims) without evidence, then it's a conspiracy theory. Maybe wait until a thorough investigation is conducted?

White supremacists and other kooks are spreading this all over the place. Never let a tragedy go to waste, I guess.

The Church of Satan tweeted their sympathies and mourned the lost treasures and damage to an architectural wonder.

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Posted (edited)

Macron has said he wants it repaired by 2024 when they are to host the olympics.  I'm sure, with enough resources including skilled crafts people,  they can have the majority of the work done by then.

Edited by sheilauk
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Question for those who know. Is /was Notre Dame still used as a church for regular Mass? 

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8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Question for those who know. Is /was Notre Dame still used as a church for regular Mass? 

Yes, it was a "working" church. I guess the fire will have affected that.

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On 4/16/2019 at 1:35 PM, Gray said:

If you're claiming it was arson by some shadowy cabal of anti-Catholics (the recent conspiracy theories include Satanists and Muslims) without evidence, then it's a conspiracy theory. Maybe wait until a thorough investigation is conducted?

White supremacists and other kooks are spreading this all over the place. Never let a tragedy go to waste, I guess.

Oh, now your including me with supremacists - not just conspiracists. I haven't even said it was arson. That doesn't make the circumstances any less suspicious - especially after a man is arrested in St Patrick's in New York with two gasoline cans and lighter fluid - yet another Catholic Church set to go up in flames. And this was after he was arrested Mon night for refusing to leave a Church in Newark.  https://abc7news.com/man-arrested-at-st-patricks-with-gas-cans-had-ticket-to-rome/5256911/ Nope. No conspiracy there because the man in just a mentally disturbed kook. Keep telling people not to be alarmed - nothing is going on untoward - let's just assume  there are no conspiracies while we watch the Churches burn - Or we can be cautious - set up cameras and security. I mean how many cases of arson do you need before you raise the flag of caution? Instead we should label any such cautious people as supremacists.... typical... they should hire you as their PR man.

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