Evidence of a Prophet

[SouthernMo]

Joseph Smith seemed to have prophesied the US civil war. While some may debate this, the evidence I see points to a pretty impressive prophecy!

Is there any other evidence of latter day presidents of the LDS church having correctly prophesied something?

[Storm Rider]

This is an interesting question and often comes from those that are seeking evidence of a specific gift within the calling of a prophet, or one that holds the Keys of the Priesthood. Often this question is raised from those who do not understand the office of the President of the Church. However, there are a few that are really seeking an answer, "Does the President of the Church of Jesus Christ and the other members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve possess the gift of prophecy?"  

The sincere questioner can listen to the prophets speak and determine if anything they say sounds like a prognostication of the  future. 

My personal opinion is that the gift of foreseeing the future has been exercised by few of the leaders of the Church. I tend to identify most of Church leadership and the vast majority of those identified as prophets from the beginning of time to fulfill the role of keeping the ship on course. Few of the prophets have been dispensational heads or those who have be used to make major shifts using all the gifts of prophets, seers, and revelators. Thus, few have been forseers; fewer still have been seers. 

I think the better question to ask is what is the role of the head of the Church of Jesus Christ. 

 

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

However, there are a few that are really seeking an answer, "Does the President of the Church of Jesus Christ and the other members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve possess the gift of prophecy?"

Bingo.

You bring up a good point. If I expect a man who we are asked to sustain as a prophet to prophecy, maybe it is my expectations that are misaligned with what a prophet really is.

But there has to be some faith building stories out there.

Right?

[HappyJackWagon]

16 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

This is an interesting question and often comes from those that are seeking evidence of a specific gift within the calling of a prophet, or one that holds the Keys of the Priesthood. Often this question is raised from those who do not understand the office of the President of the Church. However, there are a few that are really seeking an answer, "Does the President of the Church of Jesus Christ and the other members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve possess the gift of prophecy?"  

The sincere questioner can listen to the prophets speak and determine if anything they say sounds like a prognostication of the  future. 

My personal opinion is that the gift of foreseeing the future has been exercised by few of the leaders of the Church. I tend to identify most of Church leadership and the vast majority of those identified as prophets from the beginning of time to fulfill the role of keeping the ship on course. Few of the prophets have been dispensational heads or those who have be used to make major shifts using all the gifts of prophets, seers, and revelators. Thus, few have been forseers; fewer still have been seers. 

I think the better question to ask is what is the role of the head of the Church of Jesus Christ. 

I agree with you.

But I'm curious about your final question. Doesn't the church define the role of top leadership as "prophets, seers, and revelators"? Are you questioning that definition or are you looking at the stated roles as simply a title and not necessarily descriptive of gifts. Should members expect leaders to prophesy future events, see and discuss future and past events, and definitively reveal God's will?

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree with you.

But I'm curious about your final question. Doesn't the church define the role of top leadership as "prophets, seers, and revelators"? Are you questioning that definition or are you looking at the stated roles as simply a title and not necessarily descriptive of gifts. Should members expect leaders to prophesy future events, see and discuss future and past events, and definitively reveal God's will?

Is there a difference a church leader who has the authority to prophesy when needed but hasn't used that power yet, and one who has that authority and has used it?  Can both legitimately be called prophets?

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is there a difference a church leader who has the authority to prophesy when needed but hasn't used that power yet, and one who has that authority and has used it?  Can both legitimately be called prophets?

I don't think so.

If the title is merely aspirational, or an acknowledgement that God "could" use these men for these purposes, it also restricts God to using only these men as prophets, seers, and revelators. IOW- if it's descriptive of what they could be instead of what they are, it simultaneously limits everyone else to be incapable of being used as a prophet, seer or revelator by God. It's creating a separation with no real difference between leaders and everyone else, and again, is limiting to God.

 

[changed]

51 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Joseph Smith seemed to have prophesied the US civil war. While some may debate this, the evidence I see points to a pretty impressive prophecy!

Is there any other evidence of latter day presidents of the LDS church having correctly prophesied something?

It seems they are late to the ball game on so many things...

Late to give blacks the priesthood...

Late to start instituting policies to protect children...

Late to realize most women have to work... 

Late to realize LGBTer's - many cannot be converted through therapy, for many it is not a choice.

It would be so nice if the church were ahead.... rather than behind... everyone else on this stuff...

[SouthernMo]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is there a difference a church leader who has the authority to prophesy when needed but hasn't used that power yet, and one who has that authority and has used it?  Can both legitimately be called prophets?

Semantics are important. The LDS Bible Dictionary gives very broad and all-encompassing definition of a prophet. So I’m not espousing AT ALL that any latter day president of this church is not a prophet because he doesn’t predict the future. The BD states that anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ is a prophet.

But, I am trying to find some more instances where a latter day “prophet” (define it how you will) prophesied correctly.  I’ve seen some wrong ones (which I’m fine with - I don’t expect perfection), but I’d like faith-building stories.

[why me]

12 minutes ago, changed said:

It seems they are late to the ball game on so many things...

Late to give blacks the priesthood...

Late to start instituting policies to protect children...

Late to realize most women have to work... 

Late to realize LGBTer's - many cannot be converted through therapy, for many it is not a choice.

It would be so nice if the church were ahead.... rather than behind... everyone else on this stuff...

However, they were right porn. It has destroyed families and it is addictive. Also, they were right about alcohol consumption. It is true, that families in order to survive need a two income family. In the past, one income was enough and someone could raise the kids. Children were quite protected in the home, if parents were living the gospel. No smoking inside the home, drunken behavior was not seen or experienced. And with the gay issue, the idea of chasity was not a bad idea especially if one was gay in the seventies. And chasity is not a bad idea for heteros either when one considers the number of people carrying genital herpes and the rise of STDs. The church was quite early to the ball game.

Edited April 12, 2019 by why me

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, why me said:

However, they were right porn. It has destroyed families and it is addictive. Also, they were right about alcohol consumption. It is true, that families in order to survive need a two income family. In the past, one income was enough and someone could raise the kids. Children were quite protected in the home, if parents were living the gospel. No smoking inside the home, drunken behavior was not seen or experienced. And with the gay issue, the idea of chasity was not a bad idea especially if one was gay in the seventies. And chasity is not a bad idea for heteros either when one considers the number of people carrying genital herpes and the rise of STDs. The church was quite early to the ball game.

These seem like weak examples. I can predict right now that many families will be destroyed by both prescription and illegal drug addiction. That doesn't make me a prophet. It's kind of obvious, no. There is historical data as well as cultural evidence, kind of like p0rn, alcohol, etc.

You're not claiming that the church owns the issue of chastity as a prophesy, are you? Chastity has been a religious issue forever

[SouthernMo]

5 minutes ago, why me said:

However, they were right porn. It has destroyed families and it is addictive. Also, they were right about alcohol consumption. It is true, that families in order to survive need a two income family. In the past, one income was enough and someone could raise the kids. Children were quite protected in the home, if parents were living the gospel. No smoking inside the home, drunken behavior was not seen or experienced. And with the gay issue, the idea of chasity was not a bad idea especially if one was gay in the seventies. And chasity is not a bad idea for heteros either when one considers the number of people carrying genital herpes and the rise of STDs. The church was quite early to the ball game.

Porn/chastity - church was not the first there. Those are Judeo-Christian teachings from thousands of years before Joseph Smith “prophesied” anything about those.

Alcohol consumption/Smoking/tobacco - Joseph Smith didn’t add much there.  Prohibition Groups all across the country were active in the decades of the early 19th century. Kirtland had a particularly active group in the 1830’s.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree with you.

But I'm curious about your final question. Doesn't the church define the role of top leadership as "prophets, seers, and revelators"? Are you questioning that definition or are you looking at the stated roles as simply a title and not necessarily descriptive of gifts. Should members expect leaders to prophesy future events, see and discuss future and past events, and definitively reveal God's will?

I think there are periods, long periods, where the prophets, seers, and revelators do not function in their roles because the times do not require it. They serve as custodians of the Keys of the Priesthood. Their role is to lead and guide and keep the saints moving forward. 

My question, I thought, would lead to a positive discussion of their role and purpose. Understanding the purpose and value of the Keys. Without the Keys the Kingdom does not function. This is the main reason for the apostasy - they lost the Keys. They may have had great men, but the Kingdom ceased to exist on the earth. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Joseph Smith seemed to have prophesied the US civil war. While some may debate this, the evidence I see points to a pretty impressive prophecy!

On closer examination, it doesn’t look so impressive. See here for a cursory look:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69620-war-poured-out-starting-with-civil-war/?do=findComment&comment=1209860941

 

[Anonymous Mormon]

I believe the Proclamation on the Family is prophetic. 

I think that the ability to warn the world about an issue and set the standard within the church at a time when most were not thinking about these issues was certainly prophetic.

 

[SouthernMo]

3 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I believe the Proclamation on the Family is prophetic. 

I think that the ability to warn the world about an issue and set the standard within the church at a time when most were not thinking about these issues was certainly prophetic.

 

What was predicted, and how was that prediction fulfilled?

[Anonymous Mormon]

In pondering this question further I looked up the word prophesy, which clearly means predicting the future:  "verb -say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

While the dictionary and Wikipedia are more general about a prophet: "In religion, a prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact with a divine being and is said to speak on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humanity by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people."

So I guess for me the OP is asking two different questions. The thread is called, "Evidence of a prophet" and I think that warnings about current sins and trends would certainly apply.

But the OP's first post asked, "Is there any other evidence of latter day presidents of the LDS church having correctly prophesied something?" This is certainly much more rare in that there haven't been many straight up prophesies of the future by modern prophets outside Joseph Smith.

I wonder if you did a study of prophets in the scriptures, what percentage would end up prophesying the future and what percentage only warned about the present time sins?

 

 

[let’s roll]

Watch Pres. Kimball spin a globe and prophesy about how missionary work will spread throughout the world.

[jpv]

42 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I think there are periods, long periods, where the prophets, seers, and revelators do not function in their roles because the times do not require it. They serve as custodians of the Keys of the Priesthood. Their role is to lead and guide and keep the saints moving forward. 

My question, I thought, would lead to a positive discussion of their role and purpose. Understanding the purpose and value of the Keys. Without the Keys the Kingdom does not function. This is the main reason for the apostasy - they lost the Keys. They may have had great men, but the Kingdom ceased to exist on the earth. 

This is exactly how I have come to reconcile the criticisms of Snufferism, etc. 

I'm at peace with the Church, and content with President Nelson's abundance of administrative revelation, depsite the relative dearth of charasmatic prophesy, seership (in the scriptural sense with seer stones), and theological revelation. 

The Church and the keyholders are the custodians of the ordinances of exaltation.

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, jpv said:

This is exactly how I have come to reconcile the criticisms of Snufferism, etc. 

I'm at peace with the Church, and content with President Nelson's abundance of administrative revelation, depsite the relative dearth of charasmatic prophesy, seership (in the scriptural sense with seer stones), and theological revelation. 

The Church and the keyholders are the custodians of the ordinances of exaltation.

What do you think the purpose of sustaining the Q15 as “Prophets, Seers, and Revelators”?

Why not just sustain them as presiding keyholders?

[changed]

17 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

What do you think the purpose of sustaining the Q15 as “Prophets, Seers, and Revelators”?

Why not just sustain them as presiding keyholders?

 

I would like to know what it means to sustain someone too.  I turned in my TR because I no longer have a testimony in the church leaders, and did not feel comfortable sustaining them.  (Had to deal with abuse from a bishopric member - which called into question if callings were made by God - in turn feeling sick to my stomach that I had raised my hand to sustain an abuser and was not about to do that any more.)

[Metis_LDS]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Is there a difference a church leader who has the authority to prophesy when needed but hasn't used that power yet, and one who has that authority and has used it?  Can both legitimately be called prophets?

I only think this so IMO. Moses had Aaron use his staff to do wonders. It was the staff that Moses got from God but he had Aaron wield it. Heber C. Kimball seemed to wield the gift of prophecy on behalf of Brigham Young.  Heber said some amazing things like state goods will be sold cheaply in Salt Lake City when they had a shortage of manufactured goods and it happened. He said many other things some far into the future. The scriptures say that the President of the Church can have all the Gifts of the Spirit and we assume that means in one man at the same time D&C 107: 92.  I believe in the economy of heaven. If some gifts are present in the Apostles is it not easier for them to wield them on behalf of the President.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Metis_LDS
missing word

[SouthernMo]

5 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Heber said some amazing things like state goods will be sold cheaply in Salt Lake City when they had a shortage of manufactured goods and it happened.

Where can I learn more about this?

[Metis_LDS]

10 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Where can I learn more about this?

https://ldsscriptureteachings.org/2016/11/25/the-miracle-of-the-seagulls-and-the-states-goods-prophecy/

Half way down the page where there is a picture of Heber C. Kimball.

Brigham was in the habit of saying: “Heber is my Prophet.”

Edited April 12, 2019 by Metis_LDS
addition

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, changed said:

It seems they are late to the ball game on so many things...

Late to give blacks the priesthood...

Late to start instituting policies to protect children...

Late to realize most women have to work... 

Late to realize LGBTer's - many cannot be converted through therapy, for many it is not a choice.

It would be so nice if the church were ahead.... rather than behind... everyone else on this stuff...

So, on balance, do you find that the LDS leaders have been behind the curve (1) usually (2) sometimes, (3) rarely, or (4) not at all?

Does God allow prophets to intervene in history without proper preparation (crisis, question, protest, debacle, etc.)?

Does God allow prophets to intervene in history if the people are unprepared for it?  Not deserving of it?

In other words, do conditions apply to God's willingness to allow intervention of a prophet?  Biblical and BofM history would indicate that to be very important.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Joseph Smith seemed to have prophesied the US civil war. While some may debate this, the evidence I see points to a pretty impressive prophecy!

Is there any other evidence of latter day presidents of the LDS church having correctly prophesied something?

Brother Brigham's prophetic direction in D&C 136 was enormously successful.

Apostle Orson Hyde's dedicatory prayer on the Mt of Olives in 1841 has now been fulfilled in half of its prophecy:  The final Gathering of the Jews.  He also called for the rebuilding of their temple in Jerusalem. That is the next step.