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Interesting answer by BYU's President. Only 10 to 15 students kicked out each semester. And his answer for getting in trouble for not tattling is not accurate at BYU Idaho. I know students were threatened with expulsion if they don't tattle. https://news.byu.edu/news/q-kevin-utt-director-byus-honor-code-office

Is the goal to ensure that violators are disciplined or to help them come back into good standing, if possible?

Our goal is to help students come back into good standing as quickly as possible. We want students to succeed here. Like at other universities, the student conduct process exists to protect the interests of the community and guide those whose behavior is not in accordance with its policies. Honor Code Office actions are intended to develop students’ moral and ethical decision-making.

The vast majority of students involved in Honor Code cases remain fully enrolled in the university. On average, between 10 and 15 students are expelled from the university each year from a population of 33,000 students, although the number is lower in the past 12 months. Decisions are carefully considered as the HCO strives to protect the rights, health and safety of all members of the BYU community.

Can I get in trouble for not reporting something to the Honor Code Office?

No. One of the nine Honor Code principles states: “Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code.” Encourage is not synonymous with “turn someone in.” Encourage is a verb that means to give support, confidence or hope to someone. We are all members of the BYU community – thousands of people coming together to develop faith, intellect and character, and we should always reach out in love and support to those around us.

 

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4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

One person I reported the HCO did nothing about and he went on to rape two women a week later. The other was the person with a dozen arrests for lewd conduct that neither BYU nor the MTC new about and that we'd caught him doing and that were be attributed to the entire apartment. I considered him a sexual assault likely kind of guy. Call it gross if you like but if they'd listened there would be several women who never were assaulted.

Those are absolutely justifiable reasons to turn someone in. I wish they had been able to prevent the rapes. That is so sad. :(

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Serious question....What would you do if your roommate brought in someone to make out with when you were attempting to sleep or was otherwise inappropriately disruptive (drinking, drugs) and refused to stop when you requested it?  (Not saying this is what happened to Clark, but I have heard of instances)  When I was at BYU, it seemed to me and others I knew impossible to get out of a lease, you could only sell it to someone else.  Some apartment owners didn't care about roommate issues, even ones with legal implications.  If you couldn't afford to pay two rents, you were stuck (we were told BYU would back the landlord in requiring payment for the lease, I don't know of anyone who broke it and stayed at the university, so don't know if that was the reality at that time or not).

Back then I would have expected going the the HC Office was also better for the culprit in cases where illegal substances were used and I was being nice to report it that way rather than to the police (I was very uninformed and naive), there would be less chance of longterm fallout in my view.

Great question. As expected, these situations are nuanced and depend on the relationship with the room mate, the “offense”, and I’m sure other things.

No matter what the offense was, I’d approach my roommate first. I can’t think of a good reason to report behavior to someone else, and let them solve it. Be an adult.

Next, I’d ask myself if the act was harming me.  If I knew my room mate was having sex with his girlfriend, but it didn’t happen in our apartment, then it’s his problem/sin/violation. No way I’m reporting that guy to the HCO.

If the problem affects me (smoking in the apartment, loud make out or sex, or whatever...), then again, I’d approach him about it, and tell him to stop for two reasons: first - It bothers me, and the apartment is just as much mine as it is his. Second - I attended BYU with the expectation that I could live in a setting that supports my values, so I’d remind him of the honor code.

The thing about honor is that part of it means to live a life you’re not ashamed of. To live with honor, my room mate should not be ashamed of what he is doing, and should be comfortable telling anyone - including the HCO about their choices.

Case in point: I studied at BYU, and generally lived the honor code. But, I never gave a crap about the rule that insisted that girls could not use my apartment bathroom.  Did I report myself?  No. But, if anybody wanted to report me, I was prepared to live with whatever consequences would come from that lame rule.  I am not ashamed of what. I think that’s honor.

Can you imagine being the guy who gets kicked out of BYU because of his flagrant bathroom violations?   Is that the headline BYU would be proud or ashamed of?

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1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

studied at BYU, and generally lived the honor code. But, I never gave a crap about the rule that insisted that girls could not use my apartment bathroom.  Did I report myself?  No. But, if anybody wanted to report me, I was prepared to live with whatever consequences would come from that lame rule.  I am not ashamed of what. I think that’s honor.

I think we violated that one a few times.  I vaguely remember we adapted by having all the women out of the bedroom area, but maybe we just shut our doors like sensible people.  I don't think the group of us were particularly conservative in our standards (we kissed before we hit the altar), but definitely not into confrontation with authority.  One roommate was engaged and she cooked Sunday dinner for all of us on the condition her fiancé would join (and we lazy people split the costs of their meals).  So he was there every week for several hours.  I can't imagine we were requiring him to walk to the next apartment block that housed the men in our ward and knock on doors.

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I posted the below quote on another thread but it belongs here. This affects students for the rest of their lives no matter if they repent or not. That is wrong, and BYU should be held accountable and rectify these and future actions. 

"As a student, feeling extremely guilty, I self-reported my “crime” of looking at pornography and “going too far” with my girlfriend at the time. They asked probing questions and decided I needed counseling and were “lenient” because I reported myself. I received a registration block for a semester. It’s clear now that the mark on my record will follow me forever. I attended grad school and am in a professional occupation, so every time I’ve had to apply to a school or licensure, I’ve needed to explain this gap in my transcript and honor code violation. The discussion is extremely embarrassing and the person I’ve talked to seems embarrassed for me every time I explain that the mark on my record was due to normal, legal behavior for most normal 20 year olds in college.

How is this forgiveness? Where is the mercy here? This “mistake” is supposed to follow me forever? The “repentance” process is clearly not applicable to the HCO. I’m glad that the Instagram account is bringing this to light. I hope more people share their stories- I know my case isn’t nearly as severe as others. If you’ve been shamed or been made to feel like less of a person by the HCO, just know you’re not alone out there and that the truth about their practices is coming to light hopefully."

It is not wrong for BYU to make decisions that affect students the rest of their lives.  If someone rapes another student and BYU turns them over to the police and they go to prison that will most assuredly  affect the rest of their lives and I don't think anyone would disagree with that.  If someone is hacking into the grade system and changing their own grades and getting paid to change  the grades of other people the consequences of that will affect the rest of their lives and I don't think that is wrong either.  People do stupid stuff all the time and have lasting consequences. Part of repenting is living with those consequences. Hopefully they learn from them.

I have no problem with BYU having an honor code or having an honor code office.  As an oldest child of a controlling parent I had no desire to go there with the rules determined for me, but for some people it works. 

 The problem is determining what the appropriate consequences are for each individual and determining where the line is of when and how BYU should step in. I think that is going to take some discussion and it really does need to apply to individual circumstances.  I do think it would be wise to review past cases, but that could also a huge problem.

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Anyone here follow the Honor Code 100 percent? 

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Posted (edited)

Articles on this topic. https://www.newsweek.com/byu-honor-code-office-sit-protest-1393218   https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/11/behind-headlines-current/  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/brigham-young-university-students-graduates-call-more-forgiving-honor-code-n990981  https://universe.byu.edu/2019/04/09/byu-i-to-hold-honor-code-reform-march/  https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/08/gehrke-byu-can-keep-its/  https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900064249/byu-honor-code-office-social-media-campaign.html

Newsweek  "Caden Jay Zobrist, who left BYU for a job opportunity in Las Vegas, said her sister was put on suspension for six months because she didn’t turn her roommate in for having a group of friends in her room. Zobrist was “disgusted” at the way her sister was treated and told Newsweek that her parents, who she described as “pretty strict Mormons,” raised them to know right from wrong.“They put her account on hold so she couldn’t register for classes. They forced her to talk about the law of chastity with them for six months to determine if she ‘repented,’” Zobrist said. “They held her education over her head and threatened her multiple times with kicking her out of BYU.”

Edited by bsjkki
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, bsjkki said:

While it is very disappointing when roommates do not adhere to church standards, I think it is sad she went home. She could have switched apartments. There is no other school where she would find students living lds standards. That seemed an extreme reaction and there were probably more reasons than you know that she went home.  My son, right off his mission roomed with people who did not adhere to church standards and it was one reason he ended up struggling so much. The thing is, for some, sin is not planned. 18-24 year olds are going to make mistakes. My son had an extreme case of post mission anxiety.  He did not find a lot of love and compassion from his leaders. I have a problem when your Bishop emphasized punishment over pastoral spirtual care. He ended up in years of counseling. He has still not recovered from that time in his life. 

Our friend was just so stunned, or shocked, that LDS college kids would so flagrantly ignore church teachings she returned home. It was sad and though extreme, it was the only choice she saw for herself.  She did not want to have anything to do with BYU after that and believed she could have a better situation living closer to home and attending a local university.

Our daughter attended BYU-I; it was a mistake. An overly strict bishop and a relief society president that saw sin in every student sent her over the edge. The bishop accused her of sins that she did not commit repeatedly. She eventually transferred down to UV and graduated, but it left a very sour taste in her mouth for the church. It took several years to overcome; however, she still does not have a high interest in the Church. 

Edited by Storm Rider
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I suspect she was probably shy and couldn't confront them or feel comfortable about complaining to authorities and trying on her own to figure out how to get out of her lease and find a new place to stay she could afford and roommates guaranteed not to break standards was too overwhelming a task for her.  Going to a new school away from family on her own was probably her limit (that her family arranged for someone to take her down rather than assuming she could use the commuting services is a flag for me).  Back in the day of my terminal shyness, my response was generally nausea at the idea of conflict and full retreat.

Hearing this story, I thought the student probably was extremely homesick and had a hard time adjusting to being away from home. College life is not exactly an easy transition for a lot of kids these days. My daughter at a secular school had a dorm roommate who was doing cocaine, an RA that would pass out drunk and puke in their bathroom and she was frequently locked out for other "reasons." This is why BYU is such a draw for LDS families. The alternatives are a lot worse. So, I agree that BYU should have an honor code but I  think the Honor Code has a lot of unintended consequences due to the way it has been enforced.  

I would prefer a system that let kids stay in school as they worked through their repentance process. Some separation between the role Bishop's play. Some of these kids come from abusive situations or have mental health issues or a spiritual crisis that they could use pastoral care without a threat of being kicked out of school.  The kids these days are dealing with a lot more issues than my generation and that is not going to change. I wonder what the activity rate is among students expelled? Once you're kicked out, they really kick you to the curb. You have to immediately move out of your housing and even if it is finals week, you must leave class. Maximum damage is inflicted. There is no concern shown for mental health or any offer of services.They are done with you. I know of suicide attempts and new drug addictions, family shunning and other things that have happened after being kicked out. I feel the Honor Code has been "weaponized." 

I would still like BYU to have a Honor Code but reforms should happen. I would definitely sit down your 17 or 18 year old when they start their BYU journey and fully explain how it works. Like I've said before--many sinners don't plan to "sin." After a mistake, then fear and bad choices tend to take over. Parents need a primer on the long lasting secular consequences for an honor code violation of their student and understand what happens. That violation stays on the their transcript and will follow them forever. 

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39 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Anyone here follow the Honor Code 100 percent? 

Looking back, I realize I broke the code a number of times (late night talks in cars...and I do mean talks).  While there, I only realized that once and assumed it was okay because I knew I was doing no wrong or thinking the wrong way (I camped out in a guy's room at the UoU overnight rather than forcing him to drive me home because we were later than expected, in my view we were hanging out as friends and a teeny bit more, companionship not romance).  Unfortunately I later figured out the same probably could not be said for the guy I was with as he shortly thereafter asked me to marry him plus when dating my husband I clued into how arms around each other could be much more than just being friendly and comforting...boy, was I clueless back then thinking if I felt some way, the other person .I was interacting with would feel the same way or that I could predict how people would behave.  My mom didn't have a lot of dating experience besides a whirlwind romance with my dad (though she was engaged when she met my dad, so was he....love at first sight) and even less inclined to talk about the reasons why---if it even occurred to her---that talking in a car about psychology, art, physics, whatever with a guy late at night was not a safe thing to do ( she conveyed it wasn't smart, but never explained, so I brushed it off).  I am so grateful for sex education classes as dull as I thought they were.  I think Mom thought we would learn by osmosis as it was obvious Mom and Dad had a healthy sex life.  I wasn't interested in discussing their boyfriend experiences with roommates and basically I just had nonLDS friends' descriptions of sexual experimentation to go on (they liked to see if they could shock me, it was probably too abstract to me not dating till college and never romantically on my part till husband) and I never did stupid stuff by their standards, lol.

I doubt I was great with my son as he wasn't a talker, I did make a big point of not knowing how the other was feeling if he didn't ask and never put someone in an uncomfortable position because of not asking ahead of time.  With my daughter's anxieties, she doesn't even have friends offline she talks with (she has a good friend online), so haven't had The Conversation yet (and if it ever occurs, we will probably be cracking up the whole time because she likely knows more than me by now given she has a much more liberal view of life in those terms than I do...she is not a believer and uses "common sense" to determine appropriate morality in an abstract way, me pointing out research doesn't always support "common sense"---test driving to ensure sexual compatibility does not lead to longer lasting marriage for one--- is more or less ignored, she respects living the Word of Wisdom because she is in our house and has no problem with that, she wants us to feel like home is a refuge as much as it is for her).

Sorry for the runons...in a way too rambling mood apparently.

Edited by Calm
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10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Looking back, I realize I broke the code a number of times (late night talks in cars...and I do mean talks).  While there, I only realized that once and assumed it was okay because I knew I was doing no wrong or thinking the wrong way (I camped out in a guy's room at the UoU overnight rather than forcing him to drive me home because we were later than expected, in my view we were hanging out as friends and a teeny bit more, companionship not romance).  Unfortunately I later figured out the same probably could not be said for the guy I was with as he shortly thereafter asked me to marry him plus when dating my husband I clued into how arms around each other could be much more than just being friendly and comforting...boy, was I clueless back then thinking if I felt some way, the other person .I was interacting with would feel the same way or that I could predict how people would behave.  My mom didn't have a lot of dating experience besides a whirlwind romance with my dad (though she was engaged when she met my dad, so was he....love at first sight) and even less inclined to talk about the reasons why---if it even occurred to her---that talking in a car about psychology, art, physics, whatever with a guy late at night was not a safe thing to do ( she conveyed it wasn't smart, but never explained, so I brushed it off).  I am so grateful for sex education classes as dull as I thought they were.  I think Mom thought we would learn by osmosis as it was obvious Mom and Dad had a healthy sex life.  I wasn't interested in discussing their boyfriend experiences with roommates and basically I just had nonLDS friends' descriptions of sexual experimentation to go on (they liked to see if they could shock me, it was probably too abstract to me not dating till college and never romantically on my part till husband) and I never did stupid stuff by their standards, lol.

I doubt I was great with my son as he wasn't a talker, I did make a big point of not knowing how the other was feeling if he didn't ask and never put someone in an uncomfortable position because of not asking ahead of time.  With my daughter's anxieties, she doesn't even have friends offline she talks with (she has a good friend online), so haven't had The Conversation yet (and if it ever occurs, we will probably be cracking up the whole time because she likely knows more than me by now given she has a much more liberal view of life in those terms than I do...she is not a believer and uses "common sense" to determine appropriate morality in an abstract way, me pointing out research doesn't always support "common sense", test driving to ensure sexual compatibility does not lead to longer lasting marriage for one, is more or less ignored, she respects living the Word of Wisdom because she is in our house and has no problem with that, she wants us to feel like home is a refuge as much as it is for her).

Off topic but it’s not too late to talk to your daughter!  It sends the message that it’s healthy to discuss sex. Good luck! :)

 

I think I was pretty much a 100%  Honor coder, other than I didn’t rat out my roommates. No wait, I stayed out past curfew a lot.  And went camping with dudes.  But dudes were fun. :) 

 

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47 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't remember BYU offering any help in negotiating with landlords when problems arose when I was there...at least not advertised.  And landlords were not negotiating.  I would have walked away from one apartment along with one roommate due to conflict going on between the three others if I had a choice other than go home.  It was a small complex with no openings, so the only option was breaking the lease or trying to talk someone else into dealing with the hell and that just didn't seem right to me ( plus likely impossible as it wasn't one of the 'in' places and bad time of year as lots were looking to sell leases as they wanted to get married or something).  Thankfully, the two of us who were sane shared a room and could shut the door, ate in our room as well.  And spent as much time on campus as we could.  It was not a good time.

What a shame... While at BYU in 1959-60, I lived in the dorms so my experience was much different to begin with because of our Res Asst, dorm rules, and "dorm mother."  But I don't recall ever being aware of the HCO except indirectly.  We obeyed the dorm rules, abided by curfews, etc.  I loved the dorm experience, and my roommates and friends, some who lasted well beyond BYU.  I have fond memories of gathering in our floor lounge in our jammies and having many a lively discussion while eating junk food out of the vending machines... What good laughs... and being in the lounge helped not disrupt those wishing to study.  I only had the one year at BYU, but it is cherished and one of the reasons I'm such a BYU sports fan... The "times" probably added to the experience...much different than today's everyday world.  

GG

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Just now, Garden Girl said:

What a shame... While at BYU in 1959-60, I lived in the dorms so my experience was much different to begin with because of our Res Asst, dorm rules, and "dorm mother."  But I don't recall ever being aware of the HCO except indirectly.  We obeyed the dorm rules, abided by curfews, etc.  I loved the dorm experience, and my roommates and friends, some who lasted well beyond BYU.  I have fond memories of gathering in our floor lounge in our jammies and having many a lively discussion while eating junk food out of the vending machines... What good laughs... and being in the lounge helped not disrupt those wishing to study.  I only had the one year at BYU, but it is cherished and one of the reasons I'm such a BYU sports fan... The "times" probably added to the experience...much different than today's everyday world.  

GG

I loved my roommate experiences too, til the end where they thought I told on them. I learned a ton about myself in college through my roommates .  

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4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Off topic but it’s not too late to talk to your daughter!  It sends the message that it’s healthy to discuss sex. Good luck! :)

 

I think I was pretty much a 100%  Honor coder, other than I didn’t rat out my roommates. No wait, I stayed out past curfew a lot.  And went camping with dudes.  But dudes were fun. :) 

 

We talk about sex, just not in specifics relation to what she plans to do with companions, it is too abstract at this point (think if/when engaging in sex, what type of precautions will she used or what to do if her companion gets more physical or is less physical than she feels comfortable with).

Dudes were great.  Other than my friend from home, I had more fun with dudes.  It was when they wanted (in a few cases) to not be dudes, but boyfriends, it got painful.

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21 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

What a shame... While at BYU in 1959-60, I lived in the dorms so my experience was much different to begin with because of our Res Asst, dorm rules, and "dorm mother."  But I don't recall ever being aware of the HCO except indirectly.  We obeyed the dorm rules, abided by curfews, etc.  I loved the dorm experience, and my roommates and friends, some who lasted well beyond BYU.  I have fond memories of gathering in our floor lounge in our jammies and having many a lively discussion while eating junk food out of the vending machines... What good laughs... and being in the lounge helped not disrupt those wishing to study.  I only had the one year at BYU, but it is cherished and one of the reasons I'm such a BYU sports fan... The "times" probably added to the experience...much different than today's everyday world.  

GG

I was pretty passive when it came to seeking out friends until years after marriage and the Internet gave me opportunity to realize there were more out there like me than I thought.  I finally started pushing against my shell as a junior and joined some study groups where I had lots of fun...but less than a year later met my husband and that took up time pretty quickly.

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Not sure what you're looking at. The petition everyone is signing has explicitly the following (emphasis mine):

"If the code is updated there will be no need for the Honor Code Office, students will finally be able to act REAL and LEARN valuable lessons in a loving environment without looking over their shoulders in fear that someone is judging them or going to rat them out.

To clarify, this advocates for a SELF reported "On My Honor" code based on LDS standards that refrains from the following" 

In other words they want the honor code to just be a code of conduct one commits to and that one may make confessions on but not something that is enforced. That's the problem since it basically means that other students can have no real expectation of Church standards in apartments. That's ridiculous IMO. That's one of the primary things that makes BYU attractive for a member.

The other post you had, didn't have the petition, but an article from common consent. So I assumed it was tied to that and couldn't see much of what you're talking about now with the petition. I don't know if you meant to post the petition the first time and mistakenly hyperlinked the other....or if the article mentioned the petition and I missed it while scan reading. But that's what I was looking at. 

I somewhat agree that to have it solely be self-reported could lead to its own issues. I don't know if that was really the primary thing that made BYU attractive to me as a member. It was the price tag honestly that made BYU attractive. And the price tag/the crippling debt I could have had if I wasn't attending BYU is what also makes me hesitate to say that the school shouldn't have any say or means to enforce the honor code. The voices that I've read in general that talk about HC reform I've generally found reasonable or with legitimate concerns. And there likely could be a healthy middle ground reached. 

 

With luv,

BD

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Interesting answer by BYU's President. Only 10 to 15 students kicked out each semester. And his answer for getting in trouble for not tattling is not accurate at BYU Idaho. I know students were threatened with expulsion if they don't tattle. https://news.byu.edu/news/q-kevin-utt-director-byus-honor-code-office

Is the goal to ensure that violators are disciplined or to help them come back into good standing, if possible?

Our goal is to help students come back into good standing as quickly as possible. We want students to succeed here. Like at other universities, the student conduct process exists to protect the interests of the community and guide those whose behavior is not in accordance with its policies. Honor Code Office actions are intended to develop students’ moral and ethical decision-making.

The vast majority of students involved in Honor Code cases remain fully enrolled in the university. On average, between 10 and 15 students are expelled from the university each year from a population of 33,000 students, although the number is lower in the past 12 months. Decisions are carefully considered as the HCO strives to protect the rights, health and safety of all members of the BYU community.

Can I get in trouble for not reporting something to the Honor Code Office?

No. One of the nine Honor Code principles states: “Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code.” Encourage is not synonymous with “turn someone in.” Encourage is a verb that means to give support, confidence or hope to someone. We are all members of the BYU community – thousands of people coming together to develop faith, intellect and character, and we should always reach out in love and support to those around us.

 

Yeah, definitely not what I was told either at BYU-P as well when it came to "Encouraging."

I can appreciate the intentions in the first question, but I don't know if that fully came across through their methods and focus at the time I was there.

 

With luv,

BD 

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Anyone here follow the Honor Code 100 percent? 

NOPE! I never broke what I'd consider were really really big ones....such as drug use or s*x or something. But if it entailed controlling people's decisions and actions or seemed too rigid to me, I was more likely to ignore it entirely. Especially once I was  in off-campus housing 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I don't remember BYU offering any help in negotiating with landlords when problems arose when I was there...at least not advertised.  And landlords were not negotiating.  I would have walked away from one apartment along with one roommate due to conflict going on between the three others if I had a choice other than go home.  It was a small complex with no openings, so the only option was breaking the lease or trying to talk someone else into dealing with the hell and that just didn't seem right to me ( plus likely impossible as it wasn't one of the 'in' places and bad time of year as lots were looking to sell leases as they wanted to get married or something).  Thankfully, the two of us who were sane shared a room and could shut the door, ate in our room as well.  And spent as much time on campus as we could.  It was not a good time.

I had a roommate that I think would have passively took the problems as well if I weren't her roommate. Our other roommate physically assaulted the passive one when she tried to insist she turn down her blaring music. When I came home and saw the goose-egg over her eyebrow, I worked with another roommate to figure out what needed to be done to get her evicted, including calling the cops for her to file a report, taking pictures, and talking to the landlord. No way in hades was I living with someone like that. I dont know how much the HC could have helped since the offending roommate wasn't a BYU student and this wasn't BYU dorms but byu-approved apartments. That was by far my worst roommate experience. But the second to last set were amazingly frustrating as well....and the HC wouldn't have done much for me on 2 counts. 1) they were UVU students and I wasn't a student either at the time 2.) their breaks were minor at best and most of their issues weren't even tied to the honor code to begin with. I ended up swapping places with one of their friends in the basement of the house-apartment to stop dealing with them. 

Roommate roulette was never my favorite thing. 

With luv,

BD

 

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2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

One person I reported the HCO did nothing about and he went on to rape two women a week later. The other was the person with a dozen arrests for lewd conduct that neither BYU nor the MTC new about and that we'd caught him doing and that were be attributed to the entire apartment. I considered him a sexual assault likely kind of guy. Call it gross if you like but if they'd listened there would be several women who never were assaulted.

You knew someone was raping people and all you did was report it to the HCO?

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35 minutes ago, the narrator said:

You knew someone was raping people and all you did was report it to the HCO?

They came after we'd reported it to HCO and the landlords as a threat. We had no proof he'd done anything and he attributed the things we did report to being schizophrenic. I became so scared for my life I tracked down home teachers from my previous apartment and slept on their couch. He'd wake up in the middle of the night, go to the sink in the hallway and wash his hands for an hour muttering my name Lady Macbeth style. I was wise to have done so as he went completely nutso vandalizing the entire apartment (apparently managing to even break the pots and pans in half - something I still don't know how one would do that). He then went out raped two women and was locked up by the police in the asylum from what I was told. Then to top it all off the landlords and so forth had the gall to complain no one had reported him. 

I was a naive 22 year old at the time. In hindsight I'd have handled things much differently but I'd literally had no experience with anything like that.

I suspect it's rather common, especially for the shy socially awkward young adults, to have no idea how to handle misbehaving or outright dangerous roommates.

Edited by clarkgoble
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2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

The other post you had, didn't have the petition, but an article from common consent. So I assumed it was tied to that and couldn't see much of what you're talking about now with the petition. I don't know if you meant to post the petition the first time and mistakenly hyperlinked the other....or if the article mentioned the petition and I missed it while scan reading. But that's what I was looking at.

No problem. I should have linked to both, but the BCC post was discussing the petition. The BCC post does argue for the same sort of thing. The comments are even more vehement for non-enforcement. Here’s a bit from the OP.

"Restrict “honor code” investigations to cheating and plagiarism like other schools and manage them through the Dean of Students. Keep the code or not, but completely scrap the culture of tattling and enforcing that currently exists that is truly unique at the BYU schools (come on, saying that “all schools have one” is disingenuous at best given the tattling environment that exists at BYU). Don’t reward or encourage or enable tattling, full stop."

What most of the people seem to want is no enforcement of the honor code, just mental health therapy and cheating enforcement. The consequence of that should be obvious. It's already Russian roulette for roommates with there being a fair number who drink, have sex promiscuously and more. Most of mine were good but it wasn't hard to see what was going on around. One complex I lived in during my late 20's was infamous. The apartment across from ours was regularly drinking, doing drugs and so forth with lots of parties attended by many BYU students. Never called the HCO except for the peeping tom guy. But if they're your roommates IMO that's a completely different situation. I think if you rent a BYU Standards apartment you should expect what you pay for.

Edited by clarkgoble
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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Looking back, I realize I broke the code a number of times (late night talks in cars...and I do mean talks).  While there, I only realized that once and assumed it was okay because I knew I was doing no wrong or thinking the wrong way (I camped out in a guy's room at the UoU overnight rather than forcing him to drive me home because we were later than expected, in my view we were hanging out as friends and a teeny bit more, companionship not romance).  Unfortunately I later figured out the same probably could not be said for the guy I was with as he shortly thereafter asked me to marry him plus when dating my husband I clued into how arms around each other could be much more than just being friendly and comforting...boy, was I clueless back then thinking if I felt some way, the other person .I was interacting with would feel the same way or that I could predict how people would behave.  My mom didn't have a lot of dating experience besides a whirlwind romance with my dad (though she was engaged when she met my dad, so was he....love at first sight) and even less inclined to talk about the reasons why---if it even occurred to her---that talking in a car about psychology, art, physics, whatever with a guy late at night was not a safe thing to do ( she conveyed it wasn't smart, but never explained, so I brushed it off).  I am so grateful for sex education classes as dull as I thought they were.  I think Mom thought we would learn by osmosis as it was obvious Mom and Dad had a healthy sex life.  I wasn't interested in discussing their boyfriend experiences with roommates and basically I just had nonLDS friends' descriptions of sexual experimentation to go on (they liked to see if they could shock me, it was probably too abstract to me not dating till college and never romantically on my part till husband) and I never did stupid stuff by their standards, lol.

I doubt I was great with my son as he wasn't a talker, I did make a big point of not knowing how the other was feeling if he didn't ask and never put someone in an uncomfortable position because of not asking ahead of time.  With my daughter's anxieties, she doesn't even have friends offline she talks with (she has a good friend online), so haven't had The Conversation yet (and if it ever occurs, we will probably be cracking up the whole time because she likely knows more than me by now given she has a much more liberal view of life in those terms than I do...she is not a believer and uses "common sense" to determine appropriate morality in an abstract way, me pointing out research doesn't always support "common sense"---test driving to ensure sexual compatibility does not lead to longer lasting marriage for one--- is more or less ignored, she respects living the Word of Wisdom because she is in our house and has no problem with that, she wants us to feel like home is a refuge as much as it is for her).

Sorry for the runons...in a way too rambling mood apparently.

I missed out on the college life maybe, by living at home and going to the UofU and LDS Business College. Sounds like a riot, I always wanted my kids to have that college fun. Only one son lived away at college. But I guess it can also be a scary thing as well. And knowing they have an honor code helps somewhat, except after reading all of the instagrams put out about the Y's HC, it's certainly not foolproof. 

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The Honor Code and enforcement nowadays is very mild in comparison to when I was in college in the 70's, but we didn't protest it even though it was the era of protests and riots,  and this because we had significant things to protest like civil rights and the Vietnam war. I say this as someone who was cited for Honor Code violations multiple times.

But, I suppose the kids these days need something to provide a semblance of meaning in their lives. I guess tempest-in-teapot protests will work as good as any. ;)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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15 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Anyone here follow the Honor Code 100 percent? 

All of the Honor Code? 100 percent of the time? Nope. Definitely not. 

All of the Honor Code which, if violated, would likely result in getting kicked out of school? You betcha. 

You don't have to be a Vulcan to live by the Honor Code. Living the gospel faithfully will generally put you outside the HCO danger zone.

Now, admittedly, one of the things that's markedly different about attending BYU today - as opposed to when I was a student - is that everyone has a cell phone and multiple social media accounts now. As such, it's much easier to get caught doing something inappropriate nowadays. A jilted lover, disgruntled roommate, or anyone else can scroll through the internet and find evidence of all sorts of things that might be...falling short of the expected standards. 

To be honest though, that doesn't really bother me that much. If your buddy busts you for smoking pot and you get kicked out of school - good riddance. You were holding a spot from someone who would be perfectly willing to take your place (and keep their commitments). 

The only HC rule that ever really annoyed me was BYU-I's curfew requirement that all students be in their own apartments by a set time each night. It was rare for me to be able to get up there from Provo to visit my siblings, and I thought it was silly that we couldn't hang out as late as we wanted. But, having grown up in a small town (bigger than Rexburg, but still pretty rural), I know what sort of things people tend get up to late at night when there's nothing else to do, so I kind of get why they have that rule. 

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