Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
nuclearfuels

“In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've always been a bit puzzled about the LDS gift of the Holy Ghost, constant companionship, etc. My question has been what is the difference between an LDS experience of the Holy Ghost and a non-LDS experience? And how can you know that your experience with the Holy Ghost is somehow better or longer than those of others?

@Wade Englund says you recognize it by the person's fruit and countenance. Is that the LDS view or is it his personal one?

It seems a bit presumptuous to say that LDS have a stronger (or whatever superlative you want to use) experience of the Holy Ghost when it is quite impossible to compare your experience with others.

How does this work, really? What is special about your experience compared to others and how do you know that it is special?

The only difference is that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is a command given to the newly baptized by authority of the priesthood. The command is to receive the Holy Spirit - it is still up to the individual to open their heart and invite him in. The activity of the Holy Ghost in the lives of others is and remains strong due to the power of the Holy Ghost to do the will of the Father in the lives of his children.

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/9/2019 at 10:15 PM, katherine the great said:

The only person I have ever known who even attempted this drove everyone else crazy.  Mission papers sat on his desk for weeks while he waited for a definite prompting from the Holy Ghost to send them in. Temple recommends went unsigned until he had the time to pray and ponder over it. Important ward business took a backseat to his own spirituality. People were inconvenienced right and left while he was in preparation to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. And in the meantime, life happens.

If he had the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost he would not have to wait on it all the time. That is insecurity masquerading as a desire for spirituality.

I had a mini version of this in a Bishopric once. He was always insisting that we not make a decision on something in a meeting (callings especially) until we had a week to pray about it. Finally I suggested that we can just pray right now. Why would we need a week?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Thomas Merton was pivotal in my conversion to Catholicism. While I would never be in favor of sin, there was something comforting about the fact that even the great ones stumble and have weaknesses. I knew this about him (it was his nurse while in the hospital this one time) while reading his many books and it helped me see the world not through a lens of worthiness, but through a lens of the atonement of Christ and the mercy of God. I still have to strive, yes, and work and try, yes, but my connection to God isn't reliant upon my worthiness, but upon the mercy and grace of God. That is quite comforting and peaceful because it removes the weight of unhealthy guilt and perfectionism.

Peter denied Christ three times. Paul had the thorn in his flesh. We all struggle and fall, from those first encountering God to those who have known Him deeply. Hence the atonement, praise be to God.

Thank you for writing this. After I had written my post, I spent the next hour or so thinking about the significance of the Atonement to each of us. That even in falling, his grace is sufficient to return us to the path to him. What an Gift! I stand all amazed at the love Jesus proffers me...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Magic.

I think you are not far off. Its all magic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've always been a bit puzzled about the LDS gift of the Holy Ghost, constant companionship, etc. My question has been what is the difference between an LDS experience of the Holy Ghost and a non-LDS experience? And how can you know that your experience with the Holy Ghost is somehow better or longer than those of others?

@Wade Englund says you recognize it by the person's fruit and countenance. Is that the LDS view or is it his personal one?

It seems a bit presumptuous to say that LDS have a stronger (or whatever superlative you want to use) experience of the Holy Ghost when it is quite impossible to compare your experience with others.

How does this work, really? What is special about your experience compared to others and how do you know that it is special?

 

The New Testament provides some insights in answer to your question. Take the Apostle Peter, for example. Jesus asked him, "Whom say ye that I am?" To which Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."  Jesus then declared, "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto the, but my Father which is in heaven."

Yet, during  the passions of Jesus, Peter denied the Savior thrice.

Whereas, following the day of Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out,  from then on Peter was true and faithful to his witness of the Christ.

To members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (CoJCoLDS),  this suggest a difference between the influence of the Holy Spirit (which Peter experienced prior to the day of Pent) and the Gift of the Holy Ghost (which Peter experienced after the day of Pentecost).  

The difference in "strength" isn't necessarily one of intensity per instance of the Spirit, as it is duration or permanency.  Metaphorically, it like were you to have a dear, beloved, sage as a friend that either visited with you on occasion verses living with you in your home. 

It is our belief that while people of other religions may be influenced by the Holy Spirit, it is only through the  CoJCoLDS that one may receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost--i.e the right to the constant companionship of the Spirit.

However, here is the rub. There are those outside our faith who, when visited periodically, listen very intently and follow the sage advice of their beloved friend, whereas, some of those within our faith tend to take the beloved friend  living with them for granted,, and pay increasingly less attention to the sage advice and care less and less about  the comfort and guidance.

So, to your question, which experience is stronger?

It all depends upon what level of attention and obedience one gives the friend or Spirit. Those who attende to the Spirit, will be led closer to Christ, and those who don't, will tend to be led away from Christ.

The good news is, those who have only the influence of the Spirit at this time, if they continue to attend to the Spirit, they will be led, in due time, to receive the Gift of the Spirit.

Thanks,, -Wade Englund-

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If he had the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost he would not have to wait on it all the time. That is insecurity masquerading as a desire for spirituality.

I had a mini version of this in a Bishopric once. He was always insisting that we not make a decision on something in a meeting (callings especially) until we had a week to pray about it. Finally I suggested that we can just pray right now. Why would we need a week?

That was very practical of you. 😊

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/10/2019 at 8:29 PM, pogi said:

It is President Nelson

The gift of the HG is not "some official ordinance that makes it happen..."  The ordinance qualifies us to "receive" the gift, but it does not make it happen.  I can't say how many Latter-day Saints enjoy the gift of the constant companionship, or who they are, or how they compare to the prophet.  I am certain that what I described is not "experienced by all, or nearly all."  Not even close.  Maybe you live in a relatively holy place with very special people, I don't know, but my experience is that people do not experience what I described as a constant influence in their life -I know that I don't - there is too much darkness in the world for that to be true.  

I"m still back, then, wondering what the warning of needing the constant companionship means.  One must have it to survive spiritually, apparently.  Will non-members survive spiritually I wonder?  if so, then what's the point of the ordinance?  That means anyone can enjoy the constant companionship and the ordinance must mean nothing to very little.  

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I"m still back, then, wondering what the warning of needing the constant companionship means.  One must have it to survive spiritually, apparently.  Will non-members survive spiritually I wonder?  if so, then what's the point of the ordinance?  That means anyone can enjoy the constant companionship and the ordinance must mean nothing to very little.  

I interpreted it as him as saying that we cannot survive spiritually as members of the church.  He is not speaking to non-members here.  In other words, I think he is suggesting that our membership will be questioned and tried in increasingly difficult ways, and that if we are not careful to seek out and heed the Holy Spirit, we will be deceived and fall spiritually from the church.  There seems to be a rising opposition to the church and religion in general.   I think he is reemphasizing previous teachings about membership in the last days, about how even the very elect may be deceived if they are not careful.  We have plenty of teachings about this in our history, so it is not really anything new: https://www.lds.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-matthew/chapter-8?lang=eng

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, pogi said:

I interpreted it as him as saying that we cannot survive spiritually as members of the church.  He is not speaking to non-members here.

that would be interesting.  A ton of non-members surviving spiritually yet unprepared members getting destroyed spiritually because they fail to have the constant enough companionship of the HG.  

1 hour ago, pogi said:

  In other words, I think he is suggesting that our membership will be questioned and tried in increasingly difficult ways, and that if we are not careful to seek out and heed the Holy Spirit, we will be deceived and fall spiritually from the church.  There seems to be a rising opposition to the church and religion in general.   I think he is reemphasizing previous teachings about membership in the last days, about how even the very elect may be deceived if they are not careful.  We have plenty of teachings about this in our history, so it is not really anything new: https://www.lds.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-matthew/chapter-8?lang=eng

 

It's not so difficult if these warnings all mean we should just stay members.  Maybe nelson's been deceived himself.  That'd be an interesting twist, at least.

Share this post


Link to post

On Sunday evening my wife commented to me that she felt a lot of the talks seemed to be fear-based.  That's how she felt at the end of conference.  I didn't feel like there was much that I wanted to go back and read.  That was a little sad for me.

I don't think this particular message (thread title) is all that different than the "stay in the boat" messages of the past couple years.  I suppose it is worded more strongly.

And it also happens to be an impossible-to-disprove prophecy.  So there's that if you want to lean towards cynicism.

However, whether it is overstated or not -- it's still good counsel, right?

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, rockpond said:

On Sunday evening my wife commented to me that she felt a lot of the talks seemed to be fear-based.  That's how she felt at the end of conference.  I didn't feel like there was much that I wanted to go back and read.  That was a little sad for me.

I don't think this particular message (thread title) is all that different than the "stay in the boat" messages of the past couple years.  I suppose it is worded more strongly.

And it also happens to be an impossible-to-disprove prophecy.  So there's that if you want to lean towards cynicism.

However, whether it is overstated or not -- it's still good counsel, right?

Everyone who listens (which should be everyone) has to filter the messages through their own personal revelation to help them properly understand the actual intent and how it applies to them. This approach also then helps us overcome the hurdle of getting stuck too much on how another mortal may have conveyed things, which is likely to have been imperfectly. Without that approach we will run around saying, "Last General Conference was all about hope! But this one was all about fear!" I read where one GA said something to the effect of, "Sometimes we have to be stern, but are speaking to large audiences and our messages may not always apply equally to everyone listening. We hope that they understand that and if someone hears a rebuke on a particular point where they are actually faithful and righteous then they don't need to feel like it applies to them."

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, stemelbow said:

that would be interesting.  A ton of non-members surviving spiritually yet unprepared members getting destroyed spiritually because they fail to have the constant enough companionship of the HG.  

I am suggesting that he is saying that our membership cannot survive...

20 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's not so difficult if these warnings all mean we should just stay members.  Maybe nelson's been deceived himself.  That'd be an interesting twist, at least.

I don't understand.  It is not a warning "that we should stay members", its a warning that our membership cannot stand the heat of the last days without the spirit.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/10/2019 at 3:14 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Just to clarify, do you mean that those who have the constant companionship can recognize others who also have the constant companionship?

Is the pope always infallible? ;) No, only in certain contexts.

Yes there are times and contexts in which someone can conclude that but of course the sense is not always infallible

That's between the individual and the Lord. It's not for us to know such things.

Obviously the prudent thing to do is to mind one's own business, not judge others ,and seek your own answers as received from the Holy Ghost.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
19 hours ago, rockpond said:

On Sunday evening my wife commented to me that she felt a lot of the talks seemed to be fear-based.  That's how she felt at the end of conference.  I didn't feel like there was much that I wanted to go back and read.  That was a little sad for me.

In many ways conference is full of things you are looking for and of references to what is on your mind.  For me I heard more of a focus on looking beyond yourself.  Nelson's Sunday morning talk about how exaltation is a family affair, and the two talks to open priesthood session using team sports as a metaphor and then how a quorum grew from one to twelve in two short years were some of the more memorable for me.   These last two will certainly be Deacon's quorum lessons in the coming months (since the boys almost always accept any suggestions I make).

Perhaps this is because at my day job there is a current focus on working as a team, self organizing, and helping other teams that I was attentive to the organizational dynamics talks.  But I think that is always the case when you have 10 hours of talks to draw from.  If you want to find fear, yes you will find fear.  If you want to find hope, there is always hope if you are looking for it.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/11/2019 at 7:34 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I've always been a bit puzzled about the LDS gift of the Holy Ghost, constant companionship, etc. My question has been what is the difference between an LDS experience of the Holy Ghost and a non-LDS experience? And how can you know that your experience with the Holy Ghost is somehow better or longer than those of others?

@Wade Englund says you recognize it by the person's fruit and countenance. Is that the LDS view or is it his personal one?

It seems a bit presumptuous to say that LDS have a stronger (or whatever superlative you want to use) experience of the Holy Ghost when it is quite impossible to compare your experience with others.

How does this work, really? What is special about your experience compared to others and how do you know that it is special?

 

I had trouble with this as well when I converted, in some ways frankly it still doesn't make sense because the strongest manifestations I have had of the HG were to show me the way to the church in the first place.

On the other hand, now I do feel the HG on a more constant basis than I did before about little things I need on a daily basis. 

But then again, I sometimes am able to have a prayer in my heart almost continuously. What I mean about that is that it is an attitude toward prayer, having a continual learned way of being in the world which you seek. A physical analogy might be reminding yourself to smile more or to stand up straight and not slouch, or some other kind of attitude you are trying to achieve.

Ask and you receive.

But of course all this is subjective, and it really doesn't apply to judging others anyway. :)

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, revelstoked said:

In many ways conference is full of things you are looking for and of references to what is on your mind.  For me I heard more of a focus on looking beyond yourself.  Nelson's Sunday morning talk about how exaltation is a family affair, and the two talks to open priesthood session using team sports as a metaphor and then how a quorum grew from one to twelve in two short years were some of the more memorable for me.   These last two will certainly be Deacon's quorum lessons in the coming months (since the boys almost always accept any suggestions I make).

Perhaps this is because at my day job there is a current focus on working as a team, self organizing, and helping other teams that I was attentive to the organizational dynamics talks.  But I think that is always the case when you have 10 hours of talks to draw from.  If you want to find fear, yes you will find fear.  If you want to find hope, there is always hope if you are looking for it.

It isn't my wife's personality to want to find fear.  I don't think she was looking for that or hoping for it - but it is what she heard.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, rockpond said:

It isn't my wife's personality to want to find fear.  I don't think she was looking for that or hoping for it - but it is what she heard.

Rather than saying it as "wanting to hear", I would say it as topics one has become sensitive to and therefore focus on them more than others.  There has been a lot of discussion on endtimes and troubles both in and outside the Church's membership (doomsday preppers, the popularity of writers like Pontius and Rowe whose books were the number one bestsellers among members).  This has created imo greater awareness of the topic and the fear and hate (as I interpret it...the villains of the pieces included North Korean invaders and Obama letting them in more or less) that typically is woven into the stories of the alleged visions of the soon to be future.

Even if at times we don't agree with much of the discussion, I think we start hearing things as others do.  When I listen to conference these days, many times something will trigger the thought "critics won't be happy with that" or the reverse.  I am usually right.  It is actually frustrating to me because I get distracted from listening to the messages in the way I want to hear it, as in how it should be affecting me.  Later on, I am happy to think and talk to others about how they see talks, but I want that moment to be one on one for me and it isn't anymore.  I feel like the board is there with me instead, lol.

I had not anticipated this as a side effect of getting my wish to talk with and learn more about how others see the world of faith, it is the only drawback I can think of.  I usually look on the opportunity as a real blessing.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Calm said:

Rather than saying it as "wanting to hear", I would say it as topics one has become sensitive to and therefore focus on them more than others.  There has been a lot of discussion on endtimes and troubles both in and outside the Church's membership (doomsday preppers, the popularity of writers like Pontius and Rowe whose books were the number one bestsellers among members).  This has created imo greater awareness of the topic and the fear and hate (as I interpret it...the villains of the pieces included North Korean invaders and Obama letting them in more or less) that typically is woven into the stories of the alleged visions of the soon to be future.

These are not things that my wife is tuned in to much at all.  She has no clue who Julie Rowe is.

I think there actually were quite a few messages referring to how challenging the world is and that if we don't do x, y, and z we will stumble.  I don't think it was really a matter of some internal bias she has... in part because I haven't seen it in her but more so because I think we had a number of speakers who did suggest that there was something to fear.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, rockpond said:

These are not things that my wife is tuned in to much at all.  She has no clue who Julie Rowe is.

I think there actually were quite a few messages referring to how challenging the world is and that if we don't do x, y, and z we will stumble.  I don't think it was really a matter of some internal bias she has... in part because I haven't seen it in her but more so because I think we had a number of speakers who did suggest that there was something to fear.

What should General Conference focus on? Should it leave out warnings and exhortations?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, CMZ said:

What should General Conference focus on? Should it leave out warnings and exhortations?

I expect that conference will focus on many things that are important to the Brethren and the Lord. 

No, it certainly shouldn’t leave out warnings and exhortations. That would be odd. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 4/9/2019 at 1:51 PM, The Nehor said:

I also felt the Spirit and got counsel in conference but I am still mostly miserable and the Holy Ghost is not a constant companion. To be fair I probably sinned it away.

As to becoming one of them.....maybe someday.

 

On 4/9/2019 at 5:10 PM, Avatar4321 said:

Then follow the counsel 

 

On 4/9/2019 at 5:12 PM, The Nehor said:

I am. Just not optimistic that I will feel better for doing so.

@The Nehor Will you feel worse?  Worst case scenario, if the worst thing that happens is that you feel the same, it's a wash, right?  I don't know what your challenges are, so I hesitate to say that I can relate, but let's say I get the impression or the inspiration to do something, or I'm faced with the challenge of doing something I know I should do, but I find it extraordinarily difficult.  (That happens a lot.)  I usually say, "I don't want to."  (That also happens a lot.)  Then, my inner dialogue says (and I can't take credit for this: My mom is the one who used it first), "That's OK.  You don't have to want to."  ;)  Then, my inner dialogue says, "Well, are you going to feel better, worse, or the same if you don't do it?"

I have another job on the phones. :rolleyes: (I know that's not the worst thing in the world, by far, but I would give certain sensitive portions of my anatomy up to not have to do it and to be able to do something else.)  I work for a company that has self-paced training, which is both good and bad: Good, because I don't have to sit in class thinking I'm the only kid who doesn't "get it"; bad, because if I don't "get it," my options for trying to "get it" are more limited.  The company's executive structure is such that it doesn't have dedicated trainers.  The powers-that-be have left that job to a pair of senior executives, both of whom have a lot on their plate, and who are not always (or are seldom?) available to answer any questions.

I was to the point, after about my fourth barely-restful night in a row after my third day this week of trying (often futilely) to grasp the elements of my job in an industry in which I have never worked, of texting my "trainer" and telling him, "I'm sorry.  I can't do this.  I'm done."  My inner dialogue said, "Well, you're right:  That is one option, if you do that, you're limiting your remaining options.  On the other hand, if you show up for work and clock in, no matter what else happens, they have to pay you, and that's true until they tell you, 'You know what, Ken?  We're sorry, but this isn't working out.  Best wishes in your future occupational endeavors,' and you should force them to make that decision: They're the ones who hired you.  It's their responsibility to see to it that you can do the job, or, if they decide they made a mistake in hiring you, to show you the door.  You know what?  Maybe you're right.  Maybe you can't do the job, but, if that's the case, at least you should force them to own up to their decision to hire you, and to be the ones who reverse that decision if they decide they made a mistake.  Besides, after tomorrow [Saturday], you get three days off to consider your options and to plan your next move.  But if you tell them, 'Sorry, can't do this, I'm done' now, instead, all of that is off of the table.  On the other hand, all you have to do is get through Saturday, and, whatever else may come, you can do that ... if you choose to.  It's your choice."

My Saturday wasn't the best day in the world, but it wasn't a total disaster.  I spent a good part of the day Y-jacking (two headphones, one jack, one person handles the call, the other person listens in) with someone who actually does the job I'm supposed to be doing (after spending much of the week Y-jacking with people who don't do my job; go figure! :rolleyes:).  I made my first call while someone Y-jacked with me.  It was terrible, but it was my first call.  I had a pointed conversation with her (she's in management) about what information I need, telling her point-blank,      "This is what I need to be successful.  If I don't get it, I'm not going to be successful.  It's that simple."  She listened attentively, which is more than I can say for my "trainer."  It's my understanding that we have a game plan going forward.  I hope it works.  A part of me is not optimistic, but I don't have to worry about that until Wednesday.  (I work Wednesday through Saturday, 10 hours a day.  If I stay, I'm going to learn to love this schedule: I don't yet, but I will.)

So, I lived to fight another day.  "Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof."  Will Wednesday be the day I actually quit?  Maybe. :unknw: But at least I made it through yesterday.

Edited by Kenngo1969
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

There are some who believe that survive spiritually means something different than what RMN believes it means.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
56 minutes ago, Thinking said:

There are some who believe that survive spiritually means something different than what RMN believes it means.

In what way?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, CMZ said:

In what way?

I for one don’t necessarily believe that my standing in the Mormon church and agreement with its teachings are indicative of spiritual strength.  They are two separate things.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, CMZ said:

In what way?

I'm certain that part of what RMN is talking about involves a person's standing in the LDS Church.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...