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Do the doctrines of God change?

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48 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

On the only definition of doctrine that ought to matter in this discussion:

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Are you saying that the only thing that qualifies as doctrine in this church is repentance and baptism?  Nothing else that we teach is doctrine?  (Not sure I'm understanding you so asking for clarification).

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43 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But who changed them, man or God?

How could we go about getting the answer to that question?

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48 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

On the only definition of doctrine that ought to matter in this discussion:

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Amen and Amen. Too often we, as in all of us, get caught up in our own little chases down rabbit holes. We forget and we complicate by using our finite minds to understand the infinite. Come, Follow Me; so gentle his command, but how complete the call. It is not about doctrine, church history, nature of God, whatever is your daily rabbit hole of choice. It is about Savior and learning to follow him. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How could we go about getting the answer to that question?

I can only answer for myself and how I got about making that determination.  I personally study them, pray about them and go on my own inspiration and try to keep in tune and follow the spirit.  If there is something that I do not get a definite "yes" or "no", then I try to follow with faith and see if I get a confirmation later.

I believe this is why it's so important to try to keep an open and good communication with God and try to live the two commandments that Christ gave (as most important) since this is the key, IMO.

Edited by ALarson
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56 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

On the only definition of doctrine that ought to matter in this discussion:

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

56 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

So how do you feel regarding the doctrine that Brigham Young taught that was later called "false doctrine" by another Prophet?  How are we to know this will not happen again?

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31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for taking the time to share that JLH.  I appreciate it.  I can definitely see some of your points.

Going off of the statement made above, how do you reconcile the gospel as taught in the OT to the gospel as taught in the NT while claiming that the gospel is always the same?  To me, there is very little about the gospels taught to the children of Israel in those two books that is unchanging, but I'd love to hear your perspective on it.

The law of Moses is called the law of temporal commandments for a reason.  It was a substitute given for the eternal gospel due to rebellion.  If we reject eternal laws we may get the same results.

Also, it had no power to save and in no way gives the children of Israel a pass.  They will also need to accept Christ and be baptized.  It's the whole Mount of Olives prophecy.

There is no difference between the OT gospel and the NT gospel.

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19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But doesn't that assume that the changes automatically don't count as revealed truth just because they are changes?  Can doctrinal changes not be just as much revealed as the first doctrine was?  (hope that sentence makes sense).

Further light vs. Contradictory light.

God gives more, but doesn't vary from what he has said.

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6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I can only answer for myself and how I got about making that determination.  I personally study them, pray about them and go on my own inspiration and try to keep in tune and follow the spirit.  If there is something that I do not get a definite "yes" or "no", then I try to follow with faith and see if I get a confirmation later.

I believe this is why it's so important to try to keep an open and good communication with God and try to live the two commandments that Christ gave (as most important) since this is the key, IMO.

Can I ask, have you ever been told by the Spirit that a teaching you personally disagreed with was of God (I know that sounds like such a loaded question but I sincerely don't mean it like that.  I think that distinguishing the spirit from our own biases and our own wants is the absolute number 1 hardest thing about personal revelation and I love to read people's experiences where they have been able to do that.  I learn a lot from those).

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Further light vs. Contradictory light.

God gives more, but doesn't vary from what he has said.

Can you give a real-world example?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can I ask, have you ever been told by the Spirit that a teaching you personally disagreed with was of God (I know that sounds like such a loaded question but I sincerely don't mean it like that.  I think that distinguishing the spirit from our own biases and our own wants is the absolute number 1 hardest thing about personal revelation and I love to read people's experiences where they have been able to do that.  I learn a lot from those).

That's a great question!  And yes...it's happened.  Some things in the temple when I first went through for my own endowment just hit me wrong.  I prayed about them, studied them and came to the conclusion some were from God.  Others that disturbed me have been removed which has been interesting for me to see.

Edited by ALarson
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It's not about forgiveness.  If it were God could do that as you describe.  

It's about the eternal penalties attached to broken law.  Even God isn't above the law.  Quite the opposite.

The atonement pays the price.  It's not to appease a wrathful God.

I am familiar with how the story goes.  It's just too much like myth for me to believe.  One would think God would make himself physically present if the christian myth story were reality.  Making it based on feelings and trust in dubious religionists seems closer to fraud than truth.  Fraudsters always demand faith/trust for their schemes to work.  "Eternal" penalties to "sin" is more of the same faith based myth.  Jesus dies and it shocks his followers that Rome could do this to their Son of God and messiah.  A resurrection story is made up as well as the atonement to justify what happened to the supposed king.  Eternal penalties for sin rounds out the myth, inventing a reason behind the untimely death. 

There is no proof for any of this and we are commanded by those who benefit to obey the myth and wait for "answers" in the future world.  I think the better way is to live life now and not worry about whether or not the fraud looking story is true. 

 

Edited by Exiled

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8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The law of Moses is called the law of temporal commandments for a reason.  It was a substitute given for the eternal gospel due to rebellion.  If we reject eternal laws we may get the same results.

Also, it had no power to save and in no way gives the children of Israel a pass.  They will also need to accept Christ and be baptized.  It's the whole Mount of Olives prophecy.

There is no difference between the OT gospel and the NT gospel.

Maybe not from our perspective.  But from the perspective of someone living under the Law of Moses, would they agree with your assertion that there is no difference between the gospel taught to them and the gospel that Christ taught?  Or would that person be quoting the verses in the OT where God declares that circumcision will be an everlasting covenant to prove that Paul (and his anti-circumcision stance) is teaching a different gospel and has gone astray? 

Might there be some things that seem like changes now that won't seem like changes at all when we see the bigger and have more knowledge than we do now?

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29 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Amen and Amen. Too often we, as in all of us, get caught up in our own little chases down rabbit holes. We forget and we complicate by using our finite minds to understand the infinite. Come, Follow Me; so gentle his command, but how complete the call. It is not about doctrine, church history, nature of God, whatever is your daily rabbit hole of choice. It is about Savior and learning to follow him. 

Agreed.  And in our quest to follow Him, humbly inquire of Divinity on a regular basis “what lack I yet” and respond to the promptings we receive in response to those inquiries. 

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1 hour ago, ALarson said:

But who changed them, man or God?

From my perspective, man.  However, from a believing perspective I think you could easily make a valid case for God.

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56 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In your opinion, how can we know whether or not the Word of Wisdom is something complicated by man, or whether God actually changed it as the needs of and dangers to His children changed?

Do you believe it's more dangerous to drink wine today than it was in the days of Joseph Smith?  How about drinking beer?  Coffee?  

Many studies now claim these can be good for you in moderation. 

 

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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

He’s speaking of this:  

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

But men have taken those simple commandments and added their own laws or commandments.  We can’t drink wine, some religions won’t go to doctors, etc.

How about the Priesthood ban?  From man or from God?

Good examples.  I'd love to see someone address the Priesthood ban.  

 

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46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are you saying that the only thing that qualifies as doctrine in this church is repentance and baptism?  Nothing else that we teach is doctrine?  (Not sure I'm understanding you so asking for clarification).

Not quite.  Faith in Christ, Repentance (ongoing personal change), baptism (a personal covenant), receipt of the Holy Spirit (which provides ongoing inspiration rather than a Big Book of What to Think) and enduring to the end. 

And it is Jesus that states that besides these core principles, nothing else is his doctrine, and he observed that building on any other foundation is like building on sand.  I have noticed that I don't agonize over policy changes or human behavior in the Saints because I don't build on those faulty foundations.  I frequently quote D&C 1 on "the authority of my servants" which bluntly allows for LDS error, ties further revelation to seeking, expressly insists that God also speaks to un-named "others" besides Joseph Smith, and declares that God is willing to reveal his will to all flesh.  My faith does not depend on me having either absolute confidence in people or absolute certainty about God. Supposing that faith can only be build on a foundation of absolute confidence and certainty misses the definition of faith.  I have rather, a fruitful, productive, ongoing experience of enlightenment and expansion of the mind and enlargement of my soul that grants "cause to believe."

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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17 minutes ago, Exiled said:

 

There is no proof for any of this and we are commanded by those who benefit to obey the myth and wait for "answers" in the future world.  I think the better way is to live life now and not worry about whether or not the fraud looking story is true. 

  

I see abundant evidence and I’m a trial lawyer with a fair amount of cynicism attendant to that vocation.

I have no doubt of the existence of God or His Son, Jesus Christ.  And I certainly don’t worship them because any man has “commanded” me to do so but because of the love that I have for God and His Son, born of countless instances of communion with them.

I’ve proved God truthful in keeping His promise to provide His wisdom when sought with real intent.

I’ve proved Christ truthful in His promise to give me rest as a strive to follow Him.  An important aspect of that rest is dissipation of fear and doubt.  Choosing rest over restlessness has been a great blessing in my life.

He invites all of us to do the same.

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49 minutes ago, ALarson said:

 

So how do you feel regarding the doctrine that Brigham Young taught that was later called "false doctrine" by another Prophet?  How are we to know this will not happen again?

Kuhn says that "anomaly emerges against a background of expectation".  So if I run across something I did not expect, rather than go all Henny Penny, I ask, "What should I expect?"  That is, I check my own eye for beams first, that I might see clearly.  And this, (from D&C 1, and therefore, formal an authoritative) I think, sets a rather tolerant and robust set of expectations:

Quote

Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants ...

these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

For me, there is a lot more to consider about Brigham Young than something he accounted to what he personally "reckoned".  A big picture view is less likely lead to a loss of perspective than cherry picking.   It would be easy to compile a video of Michael Jordan missing shots, or Babe Ruth striking out, or Steve Young throwing an interception, but such a selective view would not explain their greatness.

This explains some of what I find most impressive and significant about Brigham Young

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1094&index=9

And this:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/097-86.pdf

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Canonsburg, PA

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11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Do you believe it's more dangerous to drink wine today than it was in the days of Joseph Smith?  How about drinking beer?  Coffee?  

Many studies now claim these can be good for you in moderation. 

 

When it comes to alcohol I definitely do.  Alcohol is the leading cause of death and disease worldwide (or at least it was in 2018).  I don't think that was true in Jesus' time.  When we add in all the emotional trauma that alcohol causes, plus the sin that in enables, and especially the way that our culture struggles with it, it seems like a given that it's much more dangerous to us than it was to those in Jesus' day.

But I don't know about coffee and tea honestly.  I'm ok with just having to walk by faith on those.  As for health studies, those change every year.  Doctors used to claim that cocaine and smoking were good for you, now we know it's really really not.  It used to be that moderate drinking (a glass of wine a day!) was good for you and now science says that no, that's actually not true.  Taking a small dose of aspirin used to be good for people with a history of heart disease.  Now they are saying "heck no, don't do that!"  

Health studies seem to be a fickle master.

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22 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Many studies now claim these can be good for you in moderation. 

Otoh, it may be easier to get such in larger quantities that become dangerous due to massive production as well as strength being increased in many drinks available and alcohol being added to a wider variety of drinks (think cocktails as well as alcoholic coolers)...drinking alcohol seems to me to be present in a wider range of activities, so those who are vulnerable to it have more chance to become unmoderate drinkers.

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6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Taking a small dose of aspirin used to be good for people with a history of heart disease.  Now they are saying "heck no, don't do that!"  

Reference please.  Last doctor appt. this advice was given to my mom.  I can't tolerate aspirin even in small amounts, so haven't been paying attention.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Thanks Glenn.  Good thoughts.

I've always wondering, if the ten commandments are eternal, then why didn't God give them to the children of Israel the first time Moses came off the mountain?  Why did the ten commandments only show up after the children of Israel messed up so badly and Moses broke the first stuff?

I could be completely misunderstanding that though.

I think that maybe you have your chronology a bit wrong. The Ten Commandments were given as part of a series of instructions after after the children o Israel had left Egypt. The Lord at some point in time called Moses to come up to the mountain, Sinai I believe, and the Lord where the Lord was to give Moses the commandments written on stone tablets that He had prepared for the Children of Israel. Moses was there for forty days and nights where the Lord expounds all of those laws fully to Moses. It was during that time that the Children of Israel grew restless waiting for Moses to return and demanded that Aaron build them an idol to worship. Moses came down from the mountain, saw the apostasy and broke the tablets on the stone. There was a bit of a calamity, rebels were killed, order restored, then Moses himself prepared another set of tablets which he took back up to Mount Sinai where the Lord wrote the same commandments on those tablets.

Glenn

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Kuhn says that "anomaly emerges against a background of expectation".  So if I run across something I did not expect, rather than go all Henny Penny, I ask, "What should I expect?" 

I think we are taught to expect the Prophets to be speaking the word of God and not teaching something in one period of time that will be termed "false doctrine" by a later Prophet.

I know we've learned that isn't always the case and that our Prophets can be speaking as a man.  The trick is figuring out when he's simply giving his own opinions or when he's speaking words from God, and I believe that's where our own inspiration comes in.  That's why I firmly believe there is nothing wrong with disagreement at times.

Edited by ALarson

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23 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

And it is Jesus that states that besides these core principles, nothing else is his doctrine, and he observed that building on any other foundation is like building on sand.

But we are encouraged to build on them and the laws and prophets "hang" on them, so it seems to me even if we limit our doctrine to these, it does not mean we should avoid laws and policies or instructions from prophets.  

For me it is more understanding what the purpose of other teachings and policies should be.  If they turn us towards these core principles, they are appropriate.  If they weaken our commitment otoh, we should be exploring why and likely reconsider them or at the very least how we choose to implement such.

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