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Those not sealed.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Is there a record of Jesus’ ministry where we find that he accepts this title?

Good thoughts, otherwise.

I’m not sure about Jesus’ divinity. Maybe? What does that mean?  What is the genetic/scientific/spiritual difference between a man and a god in LDS theology?  From what I understand, very little.  In a sense, we are all divine. We are all gods in waiting. Was Jesus special because he was special, or because he saw himself more clearly than we see ourselves?

I do not believe that Christ is the ‘only begotten.’  If we believe in the recorded King Follett sermon, God the Father must have had kids before Jesus.

I don't have time to address everything, but the passage that I can think of where he accepts and acknowledges his title as Christ is in Matt 16:16,17

Quote

 

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

 

Edited by pogi
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4 hours ago, the narrator said:

For something that is supposed to be the centerpiece of our theology, I think it's funny how nobody seems to know what sealing is or does.

Kind of like "keys" I suppose, folks get confused about that as well. But Christ is the centerpiece of our faith, and King Benjamin's address concludes with connecting sealing with that centerpiece in Chapter 5, and a post-baptismal covenant associated with it in Chapter 6. That is one form of it; Nephi in Helaman demonstrates another form it.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Because the idea that a loving God would keep us from hanging out with those we love makes no sense?

It sure does imo given what many Christians believe about hell.

I have a relative who was told by her parents they would rather the missionary rape her than baptize her because the latter damned her eternally and destroyed their family (I don't know if that was meant in the here and now or on an eternal basis, but I have never heard a Christian express the idea that those damned to hell are also socializing in some fashion with their saved family members).  They have since changed their mind at least in some ways.

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Calm said:

It sure does imo given what many Christians believe about hell.

I have a relative who was told by her parents they would rather the missionary rape her than baptize her because the latter damned her eternally and destroyed their family (I don't know if that was meant in the here and now or on an eternal basis, but I have never heard a Christian express the idea that those damned to hell are also socializing in some fashion with their saved family members).  They have since changed their mind at least in some ways.

Yes indeed. Most Christian’s believe in a literal hell filled with people they won’t be with in the afterlife. What doesn’t make any sense from my understanding of most Christians beliefs is the idea that we will be forcibly split from our loved ones in heaven. Where does that idea come from? 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding

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18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Because most Christians believe in sola scriptura or Papal proclamations.  Anything else is wishful thinking.

So based on the Bible alone, you think it makes sense to believe that we won’t be able to associate with our loved ones that make it to heaven?

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8 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So based on the Bible alone, you think it makes sense to believe that we won’t be able to associate with our loved ones that make it to heaven?

That’s not what I said.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Yes indeed. Most Christian’s believe in a literal hell filled with people they won’t be with in the afterlife. What doesn’t make any sense from my understanding of most Christians beliefs is the idea that we will be forcibly split from our loved ones in heaven. Where does that idea come from? 

What I have read over the years is usually the understanding (based to a large part on no marriage in heaven) is our earthly relationships will be no more, but they will be replaced by greater ones.  In one case this is described as we no longer have our earthly family because we are all part of God's family now.

Since most Christians see heaven as one organization ( though may describe it as many mansions with in it, that refers for most to rewards, not locations), there would be no reason to wonder if they will be able to have contact with anyone not in hell.  Of course they would as they are all there with God...whatever that means to them. The little specifics I have seen make it close to one massive congregation worshipping God together.  I don't think I have heard anything about what this means about other family members and how they are aware of the others besides they can be there taking part.

I will have to do some searching to see if there is anything out there about details of heavenly existence.

Edited by Calm
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13 minutes ago, pogi said:

That’s not what I said.

So when you said nothing beyond wishful thinking says they will be with their family forever, what did you mean? We must be talking past each other. What prevents a Christian from hanging out with their spouse forever if that’s what they choose?

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RE: the example from King Benjamin: Assuming he was high priest teaching from the temple, King Benjamin at least possessed a “similitude” of sealing power and through his address walked the people through the covenant that would seal them to Christ. So it was a mass or group sealing ordinance and covenant (much as we have in our temples) of a particular kind suited for those people. Key to that covenant for becoming children of Christ is the family relationship (Mosiah 2:5 and 13; 4:14-15; 6:3) and an emphasis on saving children (3:16-21). Similarly, we are sealed to Christ through the generations: children born or adopted into a sealing covenant first established in the parents, no matter how far back or forward it goes.

RE: Nephi, he clearly was given the sealing (and "loose") power. He sealed (protected) or loosed (removed protection) from the physical elements to teach repentance just as readily as King Benjamin's form of sealing and our temple sealings accomplish the same thing spiritually as a fruit of repentance.

I know we conceptualize it as being sealed to some other person or persons, but it is ultimately to Christ through the eternal family chain. With those to whom we are sealed we enjoy the charity and unity Christ taught to the Nephites in the beginning of His visit, and it could be said He eventually sealed them also (3 Nephi 17:11-onward). But it was in families. Spouses emulate this charity and unity for their children, and their children are very often built-in teachers to their patent as well! (as in the call to become as little children).

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So when you said nothing beyond wishful thinking says they will be with their family forever, what did you mean? We must be talking past each other. What prevents a Christian from hanging out with their spouse forever if that’s what they choose?

I am simply distinguishing between authoritative doctrines about family relationships after death based in canon/creeds vs. personal beliefs.  I think most Christians believe that sociability will continue with earthly family members after death, but in a non-family unit type of way with mother, father, child, spouse, etc.  I am not even saying that I disagree with them, but simply distinguishing between personal belief and authoritative doctrines/creeds.  I too personally believe there will be sociability among family members who are not sealed (but again, this is my personal belief and I have absolutely no authoritative revelation to back that up - it is just what I believe) but it will be limited in scope, dynamics, and glory and will not be recognized as a family unit in the same way. 

However, as far as I know, we are the only ones who have church doctrine/revelation/canon to support that the matrimonial bond between spouses and the family unit can be eternal.  That my wife will always be my wife, and that my child will always be my child.  Through sealings, that dynamic will not end in the eternal family tree.  We will be bound in an ineffable and binding oneness with each other and with God that will only grow brighter through eternal progression of seed.  This binding oneness simply will not be enjoyed in the social constructs that may exist outside of the sealing power. 

Edited by pogi

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3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I appreciate the thought and effort that went into your response, but I can’t say I follow your scripture stacking to underline your perspective.

The LDS teaching of the afterlife is making less and less sense to me. Reconciling God’s love with the idea that people will be placed into three ‘buckets’ is odd to me. Aren’t people more nuanced than that?  Can you imagine being the guy who is the most righteous guy in the terrestrial kingdom?  His brother maybe did one more service project than he did, and he’s the least righteous guy in the celestial kingdom.

Becaue of this micro-difference, these brothers are no longer sealed, and their eternal conditions are very different.  I would hope that God would see/acknowledge this. More of a spectrum than an absolute quarantine between three worlds that divides people?

Your analogy applies to any Christian religion. But actually there are four buckets. As opposed to the two buckets (sheep and goats, heaven and hell, elect and non elect) which pretty much what one gets from most other Christian religions. When it comes to who goes where, we really have to have faith in the Lord to make righteous judgments, no matter how many buckets are how few buckets there are. That is what you seem to be addressing in the sentence I bolded.

It may be an unsatisfying answer that God will work it all out in the next life, but that is what we all have to deal with. We have to deal with our own lack of understanding, on trying to project our own ideas on what life will be like past these mortal portals. That is what so many seem to be doing, i.e. projecting their personal prejudices, likes, and dislikes onto the what or who they think they would like or not like in the next life. Now, I am fairly certain that most people will start feeling differently when they are surrounded by total love in the next life. However, even then, and especially then, we will still have our agency to chose. We have always had that agency. It was with us in the preexistence as evidenced by Satan choosing to rebel and a third of our spirit brothers and sisters being able to choose to follow him. It is with us in this life, although mankind can make exercising that agency to follow God rather tough at times. And it will be with us in the next life where I am sure that we will be allowed to choose whether we continue some relationships, etc. But I do not know how that will work.

I personally do not take it any further than understanding dimly that family relationships can extend into that next life but I have no idea that how it will work. What I do believe is that it will be wonderful beyond our present ability to comprehend based upon the description of the glory of the telestial kingdom, the lowest of the kingdoms of glory, that it surpasses all understanding. (D&C 76:89)

Glenn

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3 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Your analogy applies to any Christian religion. But actually there are four buckets.

I assume you’re talking about the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms along with outer darkness (OD)?

While D&C 76 mentions OD, Alma is far more specific in his writings. Alma 40:6-14 clearly states that outer darkness is temporary, not a final judgement.  I have yet to find an authoritative source to show me I am mistaken on this.

But back to the point at hand: You’re right, the “god will work it out” answer is frustrating. What frustrates me about the answer is that while we admit that we have partial information in our faith quest, we sometimes hold fast to ideas that may be wrong!

For instance, it seems you agree with me that perhaps three buckets (or, if you insist, four) seems a bit stifling of a judgement. Yet, you may have a resounding testimony that there must be those 3 (4)!

Maybe we’re wrong about those three kingdoms?  Maybe it’s symbolic that there is a gradient?   This makes far more sense to me as an explanation. IIRC, Joseph Smith was pondering about how it seems unfair that in traditional Christian theology there are only two results of the judgement. So he prayed, and received section 76. It seems odd to me that Joseph recognized that the nuances of people and character and judgement needed more than two destinations, yet he was content with three.  Hence, I think the three kingdoms are symbolic, not literal.

But, maybe that’s not what Mormons are allowed to believe. Maybe I have to believe in three (four) postmortal destintions to be a good mormon.

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3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

 7,254,968,302,475,522,666,845,358 years

Lovely.  And . . . which is also how long we have lived before we arrived here on this rock . . . so what exactly have we been doing?  (We are co-eternal with God.)

Here is something else.  We are now in the (a) Telestial kingdom.

Marrying and families is definitely going on.

But I also have forgotten all that happened before I came here.

So am I NOT with a previous spouse (etc)?

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7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

 

But, maybe that’s not what Mormons are allowed to believe. Maybe I have to believe in three (four) postmortal destintions to be a good mormon.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are allowed to believe anything they wish. God will be the final arbiter of whether any of us are good members.

But why worry about whether it be three or four buckets or gradients? Why not just trust God? After all He has shown us the way that people who have never heard the Gospel can yet hear it and have a proxy baptism etc.

Glenn

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16 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

But why worry about whether it be three or four buckets or gradients? Why not just trust God?

This is a helpful perspective. Maybe we just ignore section 76?  You see the paradox between not worrying about a teaching and learning things of god.

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45 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I assume you’re talking about the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms along with outer darkness (OD)?

While D&C 76 mentions OD, Alma is far more specific in his writings. Alma 40:6-14 clearly states that outer darkness is temporary, not a final judgement.  I have yet to find an authoritative source to show me I am mistaken on this.

OD in Alma 40 is a different idea from OD in contemporary Mormonism. Verse 11 & 14 contextualizes this. The outer darkness here is spirit prison and is indeed temporary. While Alma talks about an awful death after the resurrection he doesn't go into too much more detail (verse 26). Although chapter 41 does focus on this. However it just talks about restoration of what one already does.

Helaman 14 does talk about the second death though. How much of that is an artifact of translation connected to Rev 2:11 isn't clear. Ditto for Alma 12. It's not called outer darkness there even though unlike Alma 40 it takes place after the resurrection. Many associate it with the remnant who never accept Christ in D&C 76:43-49. Although others tie it to telestial glory in D&C 76:81-86. It's unclear since many details of the resurrect appear to be unknown by some Book of Mormon authors.

It's possible that Nephi brought a kind of syncretic version of Judaism with Egyptian elements (or that the Egyptian like elements were simply part of pre-exilic Judaism repressed by the Deuteronomist and Priestly traditions from the time of Josiah up through the return from exile). Many elements of the Book of Mormon treatment of judgement and resurrection seem similar to Egyptian belief. (Again I'm far, far from an expert in Egyptology - but the parallels are pretty unmistakable even if not everyone accepts the content) Certainly the terms in Revelation are taken to come from Egyptian myth. Second death in Egypt was being judged by weighing ones heart. If one is evil then the scale tips and one is sent to Ammit who consumes the soul. This is the second death and they are then cast into fire. Both imagery is found in the Book of Mormon. (See for instance 2 Ne 15:14 -- note that Ammit who consumes the soul is sometimes standing in a firing pit and in some accounts takes the soul to the lake of fire. Ammit is also female as in that reference in 2 Nephi 15)

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8 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

OD in Alma 40 is a different idea from OD in contemporary Mormonism. Verse 11 & 14 contextualizes this. The outer darkness here is spirit prison and is indeed temporary. While Alma talks about an awful death after the resurrection he doesn't go into too much more detail (verse 26). Although chapter 41 does focus on this. However it just talks about restoration of what one already does.

Helaman 14 does talk about the second death though. How much of that is an artifact of translation connected to Rev 2:11 isn't clear. Ditto for Alma 12. It's not called outer darkness there even though unlike Alma 40 it takes place after the resurrection. Many associate it with the remnant who never accept Christ in D&C 76:43-49. Although others tie it to telestial glory in D&C 76:81-86. It's unclear since many details of the resurrect appear to be unknown by some Book of Mormon authors.

It's possible that Nephi brought a kind of syncretic version of Judaism with Egyptian elements (or that the Egyptian like elements were simply part of pre-exilic Judaism repressed by the Deuteronomist and Priestly traditions from the time of Josiah up through the return from exile). Many elements of the Book of Mormon treatment of judgement and resurrection seem similar to Egyptian belief. (Again I'm far, far from an expert in Egyptology - but the parallels are pretty unmistakable even if not everyone accepts the content) Certainly the terms in Revelation are taken to come from Egyptian myth. Second death in Egypt was being judged by weighing ones heart. If one is evil then the scale tips and one is sent to Ammit who consumes the soul. This is the second death and they are then cast into fire. Both imagery is found in the Book of Mormon. (See for instance 2 Ne 15:14 -- note that Ammit who consumes the soul is sometimes standing in a firing pit and in some accounts takes the soul to the lake of fire. Ammit is also female as in that reference in 2 Nephi 15)

Where in scripture do we clearly see that OD is a final judgement?  Where did this lore come from?

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41 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

This is a helpful perspective. Maybe we just ignore section 76?  You see the paradox between not worrying about a teaching and learning things of god.

I am not ignoring Section 76. I just do not worry about the dividing line between any of the kingdoms of glory. It is enough to know that it has been revealed that there are three. Worrying is fruitless. Study and prayer can lead to a better understanding, or maybe just more patience, faith, and trust in God. The latter is what has happened with me. An excerpt from one of our hymns sort of sums it up for the way I have become. "Keep thou my feet; I do not ask to see The distant scene—one step enough for me." From Lead Kindly Light.

Glenn

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

We are now in the (a) Telestial kingdom.

Marrying and families is definitely going on.

But I also have forgotten all that happened before I came here.

So am I NOT with a previous spouse (etc)?

Interesting concept.
May I suggest that Eden (ie, the unfallen earth) was Terrestrial in nature and fell to become Telestial.
Oddly enough, in Eden, with their immortal bodies they were unable to have children.

The Millennial reign has likewise been described as the Terrestrial version of this earth (the presence of the Son, Satan bound, translated/twinkled people etc), yet in that Terrestrial environment children will continue to be born until the earth is Celestialized.

I don't think the thing that limits eternal increase to the Celestial Kingdom is about location or biology.  I think it's a function of law.

Edited by JLHPROF
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2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Where in scripture do we clearly see that OD is a final judgement?  Where did this lore come from?

I didn't say it was final. I was primarily just engaging your exegesis of Alma 40-41. Although those who see progress between kingdoms (sometimes in a way akin to reincarnation such as Heber C Kimball) tend to make an exception for outer darkness. Brigham Young thought it was just reduction back to basic components. i.e. total destruction. D&C 76 more or less says he's not going to say what happens to them. I think most of the theology is speculative based upon the Utahn period.

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Posted (edited)

I googled "what will we do in heaven?" And kept to what looked like mainstream sites...

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Some people say that in eternity we will do nothing except worship God forever. While worship will be a primary activity in heaven, it will not be our only activity. The Bible says in heaven we will not only worship but we will also work. Worship and work are not mutually exclusive. A perfect illustration of that is in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve, before the Fall, had perfect fellowship with God. But did they just sing hymns and pray all day long? No. Genesis 2:15says God gave them a job: to cultivate the garden and to keep it. They worked and worshipped at the same time. And the same thing will be true for us in heaven. We will do more than sing hymns and pray all day. God has responsibilities for us. In Matthew 25, Jesus told the parable of the talents, which teaches us that based on our faithfulness in this life, we will receive responsibilities in the next life. Some will rule over planets, some will rule over stars, and some will rule over galaxies. Paul said one day we will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). God will give us responsibilities to carry out in eternity, and we will find fulfillment in doing that...

Do Christians in heaven experience grief when they see loved ones being consigned to hell?” In 2 Thessalonians 1, we find an interesting description of what happens when the Lord returns. When the Lord was here the first time, He wept over the lost. But 2 Thessalonians 1 says when the Lord comes the second time, he will not grieve as he renders judgment to unbelievers. And when we witness Christ punishing evildoers, we won’t argue with Him or say He is being unjust; instead, we will marvel at what He has done. When we see life from God’s perspective, every bit of remorse will be wiped away. Knowing what awaits us makes this life more bearable. Living in anticipation of heaven is the strongest motivation I know for living a God-centered life beginning today.

http://www.firstdallas.org/icampus/blog/what-will-we-do-in-heaven/

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The Bible doesn’t answer all our questions about heaven—but it does tell us that heaven will be a place of supreme happiness and joy. You can be sure that God will supply us with everything we’ll ever need to make us happy there.

Don’t forget, however, that one of the most important things the Bible tells us about heaven is that it is far greater and more wonderful than anything we can possibly imagine. It’s natural for us to think that our life in heaven will be like our life on this earth, only greater. But the Bible says, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Corinthians 2:9). In other words, the joy you get out of sports or anything else is insignificant compared with the joy God has in store for you in heaven.

Don’t make the mistake either of thinking heaven is boring. Nothing could be further from the truth! The Bible says God will have work for us to do—although we won’t grow bored or weary like we do in this life. It tells us that we will be “before the throne of God and serve him day and night” (Revelation 7:15).

The greatest truth about heaven, however, is that we will be with God and with Jesus forever. Are you certain you will go to Heaven when you die? Make sure of your salvation by trusting Christ and asking Him to come into your life today. It is the most important decision you will ever make.

https://billygraham.org/answer/what-will-we-do-in-heaven-i-love-to-play-sports-and-i-cant-imagine-being-happy-without-them/

other pages from Brother Graham:

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I never knew my mother, because she died when I was very young. Will I recognize her when I get to heaven? And will she recognize me? This bothers me, because I've heard that the Bible says somewhere that in heaven we won't remember the former things.

A:

I have no doubt that in heaven your mother will recognize you, and you will recognize her—even if you never knew each other on earth. When King David’s infant son died, David declared, “I will go to him” (2 Samuel 12:23).

Perhaps you are thinking of Isaiah 65:17: “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.” But this verse has nothing to do with whether or not we will be reunited with our loved ones in heaven if we know Christ. Instead, it gives us a great promise: Someday all the sins and pains and failures of this world will be over, and we will be with Christ forever.

More than that, God has promised that in heaven nothing—even the memory of this world’s sin and pain—will cast a shadow over the joy He has in store for us there. Think about that for a moment. In this world, even the memory of what someone did to us years ago can still cause us pain. But that won’t be true in heaven, because our focus won’t be on the past but on Christ and what He means to us.

In the meantime, make it your goal to walk with Jesus every day. Do you know Him? If not, make your commitment to Him today. Then take comfort in His promise: “I am going there (to heaven) to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2).

 

Have no clue if this is mainstream, looked more store/support than doctrinal, but short and sweet and covered several things, including family, looks like is a preview of a book they sell:

https://www.lifeway.com/en/articles/pastor-questioning-heaven

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Scripture gives no indication of a memory wipe causing us not to recognize family and friends. Paul anticipated being with the Thessalonians in heaven, and it never occurred to him he wouldn't know them. In fact, if we wouldn't know our loved ones, the comfort of an afterlife reunion, taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, would be no comfort at all. In heaven we probably won't fail to recognize an acquaintance in a crowd or forget people's names...

9. If our loved ones are in hell, won't that spoil heaven?

In heaven we'll see clearly that God revealed Himself to each person and that He gave opportunityfor each heart or conscience to seek and respond to Him (Romans 1:18-2:16). Everyone deserves hell; no one deserves heaven. Jesus went to the cross to offer salvation to all (1 John 2:2). God is absolutely sovereign and doesn't desire any to perish (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9). Yet many will perish in their unbelief (Matthew 7:13).

In heaven, we'll embrace God's holiness and justice. God will be our source of joy. Hell's small and distant shadow will not interfere with God's greatness or our joy in Him. All of this should motivate us to share the gospel of Christ with family, friends, neighbors and the whole world.

 

Edited by Calm

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This mortal life is a brief flash in the eternities.  We existed for so long before we were born and we will exist for so long after we die.  I suspect that when the veil is lifted and we again recognize that we are all brothers and sisters regardless of mortal relationships, those mortal relationships probably won't seem very significant.

I mean, we probably had friends for millenia before we were born, whom we were way closer to than the spouses and children with whom we'll only be with for 50 years or so upon this Earth.  Our choices of association in mortality are so limited (by time and geography, for example) that it's unlikely that we'd have chosen to associate with the same people here that we did before.

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50 minutes ago, Bane said:

This mortal life is a brief flash in the eternities.  We existed for so long before we were born and we will exist for so long after we die.  I suspect that when the veil is lifted and we again recognize that we are all brothers and sisters regardless of mortal relationships, those mortal relationships probably won't seem very significant.

I mean, we probably had friends for millenia before we were born, whom we were way closer to than the spouses and children with whom we'll only be with for 50 years or so upon this Earth.  Our choices of association in mortality are so limited (by time and geography, for example) that it's unlikely that we'd have chosen to associate with the same people here that we did before.

Maybe mortality is like church, gives us a chance to learn to love and serve those we wouldn't normally, but get assigned to.

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4 hours ago, Bane said:

This mortal life is a brief flash in the eternities.  We existed for so long before we were born and we will exist for so long after we die.  I suspect that when the veil is lifted and we again recognize that we are all brothers and sisters regardless of mortal relationships, those mortal relationships probably won't seem very significant.

I mean, we probably had friends for millenia before we were born, whom we were way closer to than the spouses and children with whom we'll only be with for 50 years or so upon this Earth.  Our choices of association in mortality are so limited (by time and geography, for example) that it's unlikely that we'd have chosen to associate with the same people here that we did before.

I think this demonstrates the supreme significance of mortality: nowhere else can we make those covenants that bind us into the resurrected eternal family and retain those relationships from before. However, I also think that our capacity to form relationships and interpersonal commitments as premortal spirits pales in comparison to what we are able to forge here. I think this is attributable to the great difference between a relationship and an association, and a relationship that entails physicality and complex forms opposition and ones that do not.

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe mortality is like church, gives us a chance to learn to love and serve those we wouldn't normally, but get assigned to.

We are assigned our "times before appointed and the bounds of our habitations" (Acts 17: 26-30). I think at the the same time we are given a good deal of leeway (agency), opposition and a good deal of enticements (both good and bad) concerning with whom to associate and form relationships.

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