Those not sealed.

[MustardSeed]

If we have kids in the after life, where to their spirits come from?

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

If we have kids in the after life, where to their spirits come from?

We don't know for sure.

But God is called the father of our spirits.  Whether this refers to a biological reproduction  (all things physical have spiritual equivalents) or to another manner of creating we don't have details.

There are two major approaches though.  Those that consider spirit children to be a union of intelligence and spirit matter/body.  And those who believe Joseph's statements about spirits being eternal/uncreated are literal.

[the narrator]

17 hours ago, CV75 said:

King Benjamin's address concludes with connecting sealing

Except that sealing in the BofM (or for Mormon theology before Nauvoo) had nothing to do with martial sealings. Rather, it was largely indistinguishable from other notions of sealing up to eternal life that was common among protestant sects of the day.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, the narrator said:

Except that sealing in the BofM (or for Mormon theology before Nauvoo) had nothing to do with martial sealings. Rather, it was largely indistinguishable from other notions of sealing up to eternal life that was common among protestant sects of the day.

I'm not sure that is such an exception, and that it did have something to do, even if only considered to be part of the "preparatory gospel", with sealing spouses and children: Posted 21 hours ago

 

[Rivers]

https://bycommonconsent.com/2019/04/07/god-the-father-vs-the-godfather-when-forever-families-become-eternal-hostages/

 

I just read this snarky blogpost. It compares the Latter-day Saint God to The Godfather by claiming He threatens to separate families who are not loyal.

I think this is a gross misunderstanding.  Or at least I hope it is.  It doesn’t make sense to me.  Then again, the whole doctrine of sealing has never made a ton of sense to me.  I wound like to better understand it.

I think there has to be a better way to articulate what it really means to be sealed to someone.  There has to be more to it then people simply  “being together.”  Instead of comparing God to The Godfather, it be more productive to have  a real discussion on the theology.  

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Rivers

[Rivers]

 

From President Nelson’s talk on Sunday:

“The spirit in each of us naturally yearns for family love to last forever. Love songs perpetuate a false hope that love is all you need if you want to be together forever. And some erroneously believe that the Resurrection of Jesus Christ provides a promise that all people will be with their loved ones after death.
In truth, the Savior Himself has made it abundantly clear that while His Resurrection assures that every person who ever lived will indeed be resurrected and live forever, much more is required if we want to have the high privilege of exaltation. Salvation is an individual matter, but exaltation is a family matter.”

This is the part that has me confused.  If the same sociality exists in the hereafter, why would sealing be necessary to keep people in contact with each other?

 

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I think there has to be a better way to articulate what it really means to be sealed to someone.  There has to be more to it then people simply  “being together.”  

As I understand it, the theology of sealing goes far beyond simply being "sealed to someone", or "being together" with someone.  We are not just sealed to someone but we become a link in the eternal eternal chain of the generations of Heavenly Mothers and Fathers of which we are sealed to all.  "A man is not without the woman, and a woman is not without the man in the Lord."  The sealing of a man and a woman forms a link that ties us together with the Lord, and His Lord, and His Lord...  While I think the sealing to a spouse does allow us to "be together" it is so much more than that.  The sealing chain of the generations is an eternal order of oneness.  We enter the bosom of eternity in oneness with all things good.  They become a part of us and we become a part of them in an eternal family of deities.  The sealing qualifies us for that eternal oneness.  "Be ye therefore one..."   I think very, very few people on this earth have ever enjoyed the pleasure of being truly one with another human being - the complete and absolute sense of feeling known and accepted in perfect love, intimacy, and purpose.  I believe that being sealed into the chain of the generations multiplies that experience infinitely.

Edited April 11, 2019 by pogi

[Rivers]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

As I understand it, the theology of sealing goes far beyond simply being "sealed to someone", or "being together" with someone.  We are not just sealed to someone but we become a link in the eternal eternal chain of the generations of Heavenly Mothers and Fathers of which we are sealed to all.  "A man is not without the woman, and a woman is not without the man in the Lord."  The sealing of a man and a woman forms a link that ties us together with the Lord, and His Lord, and His Lord...  While I think the sealing to a spouse does allow us to "be together" it is so much more than that.  The sealing chain of the generations is an eternal order of oneness.  We enter the bosom of eternity in oneness with all things good.  They become a part of us and we become a part of them in an eternal family of deity.  It is all about being one.  "Be ye therefore one..."   I think very, very few people on this earth have ever enjoyed the pleasure of being truly one with another human being - the complete and absolute sense of feeling known and accepted in perfect love, intimacy, and purpose.  I believe that being sealed into the chain of the generations multiplies that experience infinitely.

Beautifully said.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

As I understand it, the theology of sealing goes far beyond simply being "sealed to someone", or "being together" with someone.  We are not just sealed to someone but we become a link in the eternal eternal chain of the generations of Heavenly Mothers and Fathers of which we are sealed to all.  "A man is not without the woman, and a woman is not without the man in the Lord."  The sealing of a man and a woman forms a link that ties us together with the Lord, and His Lord, and His Lord...  While I think the sealing to a spouse does allow us to "be together" it is so much more than that.  The sealing chain of the generations is an eternal order of oneness.  We enter the bosom of eternity in oneness with all things good.  They become a part of us and we become a part of them in an eternal family of deities.  It is all about being one.  "Be ye therefore one..."   I think very, very few people on this earth have ever enjoyed the pleasure of being truly one with another human being - the complete and absolute sense of feeling known and accepted in perfect love, intimacy, and purpose.  I believe that being sealed into the chain of the generations multiplies that experience infinitely.

This reminds me of Brigham's vision of Joseph:

"Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.”

Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the Priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity."

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

As I understand it, the theology of sealing goes far beyond simply being "sealed to someone", or "being together" with someone.  We are not just sealed to someone but we become a link in the eternal eternal chain of the generations of Heavenly Mothers and Fathers of which we are sealed to all.  "A man is not without the woman, and a woman is not without the man in the Lord."  The sealing of a man and a woman forms a link that ties us together with the Lord, and His Lord, and His Lord...  While I think the sealing to a spouse does allow us to "be together" it is so much more than that.  The sealing chain of the generations is an eternal order of oneness.  We enter the bosom of eternity in oneness with all things good.  They become a part of us and we become a part of them in an eternal family of deities.  The sealing qualifies us for that eternal oneness.  "Be ye therefore one..."   I think very, very few people on this earth have ever enjoyed the pleasure of being truly one with another human being - the complete and absolute sense of feeling known and accepted in perfect love, intimacy, and purpose.  I believe that being sealed into the chain of the generations multiplies that experience infinitely.

It sounds more like separation then anything. Sealed couples to be separated to form their own worlds.

ETA: I'm sorry, I immediately started typing before finishing your post. What you said doesn't sound too bad, but now how I see it. Exaltation IMO, means you'll be like God, and therefore create a world, and populate the premortal spirits to be born on that world or planet. Salvation is where I will hopefully be. I've no need to be a goddess, I do however have a need to be with my children and grandchildren etc. since all of my children aren't active, and I doubt will ever be. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Tacenda

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

If the same sociality exists in the hereafter, why would sealing be necessary to keep people in contact with each other?

And if those exalted are one in Christ, that seems likely to imply a perfect awareness of others...so why is an ordinance needed?  I get why we need to go through somethings to learn, but this seems to be much more than just learning if we are doing for the dead as well.

I am very curious to learn how this all works.

The Catholic understanding this is an actual change that baptism itself causes even without the individual's awareness as I understand (called the indelible mark of baptism, again as I understand)*** gives a reason why it must occur, I don't know if that works in our theology though.

***if wrong in understanding, those who know correct please

Edited April 11, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It sounds more like separation then anything. Sealed couples to be separated to form their own worlds.

ETA: I'm sorry, I immediately started typing before finishing your post. What you said doesn't sound too bad, but now how I see it. Exaltation IMO, means you'll be like God, and therefore create a world, and populate the premortal spirits to be born on that world or planet. Salvation is where I will hopefully be. I've no need to be a goddess, I do however have a need to be with my children and grandchildren etc. since all of my children aren't active, and I doubt will ever be. 

Do you feel separated from your children when they have their homes and doing their own work?  I don't (not saying that is what people should feel, just explaining my view).  Separation with family means I can't choose to get up and go to them whenever I want.  On rare occasions, this happens physically...like when I went to Russia without my kids.  Emotionally it can happen with family even if in the same room and I am talking and touching them and even trying to express love.

I don't see my kids creating their own world as a separation from me any more than us creating our own sand castles at the beach felt like a separation.  In fact, it felt very close to me...all of us working to create our own version we could then share.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

believe that being sealed into the chain of the generations multiplies that experience infinitely.

I visualize it as husband and wife forming one link.  That link is at the center of a sphere that all other links in existence hook into (visualize it as one large circular link with ten circular others attached, but each of those links is linked to all the others, each seeming at the center if focused on).  Each link is the center of its own sphere, both most important and one of many.  Somehow God's link encompasses all.

So in one sense the chain is only two links long, our couple and another couple...but also infinite since it includes all the couples that exist in eternity.

That is how I imagine how we can be One in our relationships.

And the couple link is somehow two, but also one in a way different to how we are two couples in relationship,to each other, but also one.

The image of a chain creates a sense of distance if there are many links between me and another specific link.  Somehow the chain needs to fold back on itself so there is no link between any two links and that gets too messy.  My infinite spheres is bad enough trying to see.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Calm

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I visualize it as husband and wife forming one link.  That link is at the center of a sphere that all other links in existence hook into (visualize it as one large circular link with ten circular others attached, but each of those links is linked to all the others, each seeming at the center if focused on).  Each link is the center of its own sphere, both most important and one of many.  Somehow God's link encompasses all.

So in one sense the chain is only two links long, our couple and another couple...but also infinite since it includes all the couples that exist in eternity.

That is how I imagine how we can be One in our relationships.

And the couple link is somehow two, but also one in a way different to how we are two couples in relationship,to each other, but also one.

The image of a chain creates a sense of distance if there are many links between me and another specific link.  Somehow the chain needs to fold back on itself so there is no link between any two links and that gets too messy.  My infinite spheres is bad enough trying to see.

This reminds me of circular family trees, but 3-D (spherical) versions.

[MustardSeed]

Interestingly we at LDS funerals you basically always hear people say “we know we will be together again.” “We know he’s with her now”

Not according to the manual. We hope.  But we must qualify.  For all we know he’s now in Spirit prison and she’s in Paradise. I don’t think there’s a welcoming committee before hand. 

Its a rough plan! 

[Tacenda]

I have been watching a lot of ND experiences and this one is pretty good. "Love" is it, church institutions teach love but then add in a bunch of other things. It's quite the NDE youtube, if you have a chunk of time to listen. I don't ever see in these a mention of exaltation or becoming gods. 

 

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

The Catholic understanding this is an actual change that baptism itself causes even without the individual's awareness as I understand (called the indelible mark of baptism, again as I understand)*** gives a reason why it must occur, I don't know if that works in our theology though.

***if wrong in understanding, those who know correct please

This is correct. This is why no-one gets "rebaptized" in the Catholic Church. Excommunication cuts you off from the Sacraments but cannot remove baptism since it is indelible. 

[mnn727]

On 4/8/2019 at 9:14 AM, SouthernMo said:

To me, this is where LDS theology on the afterlife falls apart.  It makes no sense.  The only answer I’ve ever gotten is: “No, but it will all be worked out.”

Must we have every answer now?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

This reminds me of circular family trees, but 3-D (spherical) versions.

Yep...I go to trees a lot in thinking about.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

don't ever see in these a mention of exaltation or becoming gods. 

Seems like that would be something encountered much later if judgment comes at end of millennium.  (I don't know if that time is symbolic or literal for individuals, but many prophets seem to indicate that it is going to take time for everyone to get fully prepared...a "long time" according to Joseph, iirc).

NDEs, imo, would probably keep to conveying simpler teachings that are preparatory.

I have my doubts about those who go into these elaborate scenarios, but I haven't studied them widely...just a few that I think were dubious due to how the recitation of them were turned into money,asking opportunities and they became more and more detailed overtime.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Calm

[SouthernMo]

6 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Must we have every answer now?

No - but I wish the LDS theology (or the communication thereof) was less dogmatic. When the “doctrine” doesn’t make sense, instead of admitting that it might be wrong, the orthodox Mormon response seems to be to hold to the doctrine, and say there must be more.

Lets admit we may be wrong about some things! 😁

[mnn727]

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I have been watching a lot of ND experiences and this one is pretty good. "Love" is it, church institutions teach love but then add in a bunch of other things. It's quite the NDE youtube, if you have a chunk of time to listen. I don't ever see in these a mention of exaltation or becoming gods. 

 

That's because most NDE's are completely bogus, designed to sell a book, product, or lifestyle.

That, and I'm sure God withholds much from those he's sending back.