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19 minutes ago, juliann said:

Oh for heaven's sakes. You read stories. Meanwhile, you ignore piles of statistics. There is a difference between glamorizing suicide and talking about it. Maybe you can read some stories about that on your non factual sites. 

Suicide is a serious problem amongst our youth. It deserves more scrutiny than a few stories.

I did no such thing, CFR.

 

10 minutes ago, juliann said:

Seriously? You really aren't reading what she said. But feel free to mischaracterize her if it helps your data free narrative.

I didn't mischaracterize Calm, CFR.

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On 4/15/2019 at 10:47 AM, Tacenda said:

At the very end of the article it says that there should be open dialogue over the suicides. I know that Calm mentioned that it's not right to say the church is the reason or attribute the policy to the reason the suicides happened. She may have a point, but why not be open about how the policy could have attributed. Many gay LDS are very believing Mormons and having been told that if they act out on their inborn feelings, and having the church kick them out or condemn children over their decision to marry is what could contribute, amongst many other feelings. At most we as a society need to make it as safe for the LGBTQ crowd as possible. Not all but many have a gay member of the family or community somewhere and we know that these are not the horrible people some make them out to be. The church will not be forced to let them marry in the temple, IMO. Freedom of religion and all that. So the policy was all for naught and only hurt and devasted the LDS crowd and their families. And that is why the church changed their mind on this policy/revelation.

Safe for a specific group? Hmm, what does that look like? What about other groups? Who is safe and who is not? 

When you drink the Kool-aid that the media is shoveling, you lose perspective. Step back and think about what is being said, what is actually happening, and what is reality. 

You don't need to create reasons for suicide in the gay community - they seem to have a much higher rate of suicide than the majority of other groups. Come to think of it, white men commit suicide more than other groups. How should we make them feel more safe? Or is just being a man enough to make individuals want to kill themselves?

Is sexuality fluid? Read that question several times and then clearly understand the research - HUMAN SEXUALITY IS FLUID. What does that mean? It means that humans can express sexuality relatively easily between the two extremes of heterosexuality and homosexality. That "inborn feelings" thing you were peddling - that is balderdash and propaganda. Do humans feel things? Yes. Can they be drawn to an one end of the spectrum or the other? Yes. 

My mom often told me that I could not go down the chimney without getting soot on me. The more times you experience something - as in the first time - the more easily it is to do it again. Before you know it guess what? You are "it". That goes for anything - from stealing, to drug addict, to either end of the spectrum on sexuality. 

Tacenda, I really enjoy you. I enjoy your sweet approach to learning. Your challenge is that you are unanchored - you have lost your guiding star. To be a student of truth you must actually grab hold of truth and hold on to it when you find it. It prevents an individual from being blown about by every wind of conflicting doctrines that man creates. You are fighting against yourself and have been for several years now. Seek truth from sources of peace and leave off on those who sole purpose is to destroy, to cause contention, and who don't know truth if she was to hit them over the head with a three ton battle axe. 

Edited by Storm Rider

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Safe for a specific group? Hmm, what does that look like? What about other groups? Who is safe and who is not? 

When you drink the Kool-aid that the media is shoveling, you lose perspective. Step back and think about what is being said, what is actually happening, and what is reality. 

You don't need to create reasons for suicide in the gay community - they seem to have a much higher rate of suicide than the majority of other groups. Come to think of it, white men commit suicide more than other groups. How should we make them feel more safe? Or is just being a man enough to make individuals want to kill themselves?

Is sexuality fluid? Read that question several times and then clearly understand the research - HUMAN SEXUALITY IS FLUID. What does that mean? It means that humans can express sexuality relatively easily between the two extremes of heterosexuality and homosexality. That "inborn feelings" thing you were peddling - that is balderdash and propaganda. Does humans feel things? Yes. Can they be drawn to an one end of the spectrum or the other? Yes. 

My mom often told me that I could not go down the chimney without getting soot on me. The more times you experience something - as in the first time - the more easily it is to do it again. Before you know it guess what? You are "it". That goes for anything - from stealing, to drug addict, to either end of the spectrum on sexuality. 

Tacenda, I really enjoy you. I enjoy your sweet approach to learning. Your challenge is that you are unanchored - you have lost your guiding star. To be a student of truth you must actually grab hold of truth and hold on to it when you find it. It prevents an individual from being blown about by every wind of conflicting doctrines that man creates. You are fighting against yourself and have been for several years now. Seek truth from sources of peace and leave off on those who sole purpose is to destroy, to cause contention, and who don't know truth if she was to hit them over the head with a three ton battle axe. 

Thanks for your kind words Stargazer, I feel a lot less evil now. ;) 

 

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On 4/13/2019 at 7:52 AM, gopher said:

Do you read any of Calm's posts?  She has done an incredible job of gathering information provided by professionals who warn against drawing the types of conclusions you have drawn.  And she is by far the most credible and trustworthy poster on this board so you can't easily dismiss what she has posted.

I think those members of my family who have suffered the tragic loss of gay children to suicide deserve to have accurate information.  Do you agree?

Honestly, I believe you could put this article right up with those you disparage for saying being gay and Mormon could lead to depression and suicide. https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/depression-and-suicide?lang=eng

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4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Honestly, I believe you could put this article right up with those you disparage for saying being gay and Mormon could lead to depression and suicide. https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/depression-and-suicide?lang=eng

Meaning what please?  That it claims being gay AND a Latter-day Saint leads to depression and suicide?  If so, please quote where it says that.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2019 at 11:07 PM, Tacenda said:

I did no such thing, CFR.

 

I didn't mischaracterize Calm, CFR.

Yes, you did.

You are representing it as me excluding any discussion of the Church contributing to increasing vulnerabilities since you not providing my reason to not make those claims about the Church makes it appear that my concern was for the Church when my concern is actualky increasing vulnerability of those at risk; my argument was people shouldn't make inaccurate or unfounded statements as they may be contributing to increasing vulnerabilities by normalizing the idea of suicide.

Some of these inaccurate statements have been the policy caused an increase of suicide or that the Church is the primary cause because the best data available is contrary to both statements.  Another inaccurate claim is that there is one cause for suicide when the research shows vulnerabity is highly complex with multiple contributors.  I would challenge claims that homosexuality sexual behaviour itself was the cause of the increased risk of depression as I haven’t seen any research that differentiates between those who experience same sex attraction but do not act on it with those who don’t. If the research isn’t there, people shouldn’t be making claims as if it is. 

Edited by Calm
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8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for your kind words Stargazer, I feel a lot less evil now. ;) 

 

I am not Stargazer - Storm Rider. 😁  I haven't read the entire thread; I just don't have that kind of time. I cannot tell if his is serious or you throwing shade my way. I hope you do not feel anyone thinks you are evil. I have never thought that of you to any degree.

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I am not Stargazer - Storm Rider. 😁  I haven't read the entire thread; I just don't have that kind of time. I cannot tell if his is serious or you throwing shade my way. I hope you do not feel anyone thinks you are evil. I have never thought that of you to any degree.

Sorry Storm, getting a touch of that sometimers I guess. No, I don't think you thought I was evil, therefore the wink emoji. :)

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

Meaning what please?  That it claims being gay AND a Latter-day Saint leads to depression and suicide?  If so, please quote where it says that.

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/depression-and-suicide?lang=eng The very first line hit me like a ton of bricks. Aren't they talking to LDS members who are gay? Gay and Mormon's website? Maybe I'm going crazy, but I'm sorry I even got into this conversation on the thread. My apologies if I offended with my comments.

 

People who experience same-sex attraction or identify themselves as gay may be at higher risk for depression or suicide. 

 

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, you did.

You are representing it as me excluding any discussion of the Church contributing to increasing vulnerabilities as not giving the reason makes it appear that my concern was for the Church when my concern is increasing vulnerability; my argument was people shouldn't make inaccurate or unfounded statements as they may be contributing to increasing vulnerabilities by normalizing the idea of suicide.

Some of these inaccurate statements have been the policy caused an increase of suicide or that the Church is the primary cause because the best data available is contrary to both statements.  Another inaccurate claim is that there is one cause for suicide when the research shows vulnerabity is highly complex with multiple contributors.  I would challenge claims that homosexuality sexual behaviour itself was the cause of the increased risk of depression as I haven’t seen any research that differentiates between those who experience same sex attraction but do not act on it with those who don’t. If the research isn’t there, people shouldn’t be making claims as if it is. 

This is over my brain dead head. Can I call a truce. I'm sorry. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2019 at 8:23 PM, Tacenda said:

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/depression-and-suicide?lang=eng The very first line hit me like a ton of bricks. Aren't they talking to LDS members who are gay? Gay and Mormon's website? Maybe I'm going crazy, but I'm sorry I even got into this conversation on the thread. My apologies if I offended with my comments.

 

People who experience same-sex attraction or identify themselves as gay may be at higher risk for depression or suicide. 

 

I am not offended or even upset at this point, though I went significantly past frustrated earlier in the thread.  I still believe it is very, very, very important to approach suicide and depression in mentally and emotionally supportive ways, which may not always be ways we think of as "common sense" according to research.  To do so, we need to inform ourselves about the best way to talk about suicide and preferably not in a superficial way that can hurt more than it helps.

Is there any indication in that sentence that being a member of the Church is relevant to that higher risk?  The Church isn't even mentioned in it,  instead, it is a general statement, much like others found on secular websites discussing mental health and suicide, including various vulnerability factors.

The purpose of the website is informative to anyone who reads it, it is not just for or about gay members.  In the About section, there is a purpose statement that is for that section, but can easily be applied to the entire website:

Quote

By establishing a common familiarity with these concepts, Church members can better prepare to have healthy conversations about same-sex attraction.

Whether readers are nonmembers or are members who identify as gay, have SSA, or are OSA, this website informs about the how, whys, and whats of Church doctrine and practices and how it impacts people's lives.

That should clearly not be read as every bit of info is meant to apply to all or only gay Mormons.

Edited by Calm
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On 4/7/2019 at 1:47 PM, JAHS said:

I have a feeling that for most baptism was not the issue;  The issue was that the policy  was something the church did to further distance itself from these families and children. To add insult to injury so to speak. 
 

How can we move further away from people who had no affiliation with us to begin with and never wanted it?

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On 4/11/2019 at 11:04 AM, The Nehor said:

Are you calling for an Inquisition here?

Worried about visits or having to do more work?

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On 4/12/2019 at 11:51 AM, The Nehor said:

Do they have Iron Maiden’s and racks we can borrow?

Iron Maiden? Excellent!

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On 4/14/2019 at 11:12 AM, Tacenda said:

The families have notes and lived with their gay child. I wasn't there nor spoke face to face.

Did you read the article I posted? Toward the end there is a young man that quit believing and left a note that it was because he didn't believe.

If someone leaves a note that they can't not believe in the church and live in the LDS community and took their life over that then it's clear to me that someone could do the same thing over the Nov. 2015 policy that said what it did.

How can we be responsible for what people who dont believe the message we teach do?

The message of the restoration is hope through Jesus Christ. If people dont accept that hope how is it our fault?

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7 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

How can we be responsible for what people who dont believe the message we teach do?

The message of the restoration is hope through Jesus Christ. If people dont accept that hope how is it our fault?

Read the article and find out.

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1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Worried about visits or having to do more work?

I can worry about two things.

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On 4/15/2019 at 8:26 AM, Stargazer said:

The problem is very fundamental.  The only way to get around the problem is for the Church to go all out pro-gay.  Same-sex temple marriage, etc.  This isn't going to happen.  So now what?  Are we still going to blame the Church for suicides?  The only suicide among people I have known was a young man who did so over chronic and severe depression.  

And I have to ask if even with society now full on pro gay with marriage and everything, has the gay suicide rate gone down?  I haven't heard that it has, and you'd think that if it were something remarkable people would be talking about it.  Or maybe it is being talked about but I haven't heard the talk.

Something I read HERE indicates that LGBT youth commit or attempt to commit suicide at hugely increased rates over heterosexual youth.  And this is a general condition -- is the LDS slice of the pie so much larger then, that we have to get super-exercised about it?  I don't want anyone to kill themselves, but this blaming of LDS doctrine seems very much misplaced and exaggerated.

Something I'm curious about, just how much damage has been done to the church over LGBT issues? 

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

Something I'm curious about, just how much damage has been done to the church over LGBT issues? 

I think it is too complicated to tell from what I've seen as it may be seen as problematic in one section of the world, but then seen as quite positive in another, same thing with perception of different communities.

 

Edited by Calm

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it is too complicated to tell from what I've seen as it may be seen as problematic in one section of the world, but then seen as quite positive in another, same thing with perception of different communities.

 

Damage as in the LGBT doing whatever mean things they can to the LDS church over all this, including general ill will.  People brush that off until people in places like the community treat you like absolute garbage, saw it in Seattle all the time.

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46 minutes ago, poptart said:

Damage as in the LGBT doing whatever mean things they can to the LDS church over all this, including general ill will.  People brush that off until people in places like the community treat you like absolute garbage, saw it in Seattle all the time.

The few LGBT who actually intend harm, yes...but I think likely minor in the long run (property damage and 'terrorist' type threats may end up creating more sympathy than harm).  I think given our longtime teaching about homosexual behaviour, I highly doubt many on that current position held positive views of us in the past even if some have moved into more negative views.  (Growing up in the Bay Area, I never heard anything positive about the Church from the LGBT community; at best from LGBT friends, I belonged to a community that was self righteously deluded just as many others were).  General ill will as the Church gets painted as rigid, unloving, etc. by those who see it that way...yes, that can be a problem, one that might continue to grow causing more doors to be shut as not interested, but maybe some will be curious to hear how we see ourselves.

Hopefully both members and nonmembers will sooner learn to understand most are trying hard to do what it right for not only themselves, but others...but one generally needs to have that desire themselves to first be able to see it in others plus have at least some personal experience that has led to developing that kind of trust of others.  If one's life experience hasn't been in line with that belief (someone trusted was malicious and intentionally harmful/abusive), it is understandable why they will reject that world view of others.

But I do believe a lot of people see the world as their extended family.  I am grateful I have the Gospel that helps me see others as my brothers and sisters (not perfect, not always talking to each other, but people I want a part of my life when they and I get our lives together well enough to keep doors open).

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, poptart said:

Something I'm curious about, just how much damage has been done to the church over LGBT issues? 

I suspect none

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On 4/25/2019 at 12:36 AM, poptart said:

Something I'm curious about, just how much damage has been done to the church over LGBT issues? 

I have no idea. I am aware of some people who have gone ga-ga over it.  I tend to think that it is a small minority who are extremely loud, but like I said, I have no idea.

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On 4/12/2019 at 4:39 PM, Tacenda said:

No hoax, true story. 


what is the true story?

 

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