Conference protesters

[gopher]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No hoax, true story. 

Do you read any of Calm's posts?  She has done an incredible job of gathering information provided by professionals who warn against drawing the types of conclusions you have drawn.  And she is by far the most credible and trustworthy poster on this board so you can't easily dismiss what she has posted.

I think those members of my family who have suffered the tragic loss of gay children to suicide deserve to have accurate information.  Do you agree?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

Do you read any of Calm's posts?  She has done an incredible job of gathering information provided by professionals who warn against drawing the types of conclusions you have drawn.  And she is by far the most credible and trustworthy poster on this board so you can't easily dismiss what she has posted.

I think those members of my family who have suffered the tragic loss of gay children to suicide deserve to have accurate information.  Do you agree?

I've read stories of families that have had notes spelling it out that they can't live as a gay in the LDS community. Is that enough for you?

And there was a recent article that not talking about it is worse than talking about it. I read the whole article, and in it one of the suicides was over not being a full believer in the LDS community and that is why they took their life. Happens more than you probably think. I don't think these particular teens were gay, but I don't know. What I'm pointing out to you is they are saying talking about it is what is important. https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-teenager-killed-himself-six-more-followed-11555061402

 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, gopher said:

And she is by far the most credible and trustworthy poster on this board

That makes me feel good, very high compliment given other posters.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And there was a recent article that not talking about it is worse than talking about it.

I have never said not to talk about.  Nor has anyone else here that I have seen.  There are however wrong ways to talk about it that increase the vulnerability of those at risk. And it is not just about being ineffective, but raising risks which may make it worse.

 One of those wrong ways is to attribute death to a single cause.  Not only is it not accurate, it makes suicide appear to be a more reasonable response in that situation.  You think that implying killing yourself is reasonable or normal is helpful to a teen who is thinking of killing himself?  If a teen told someone he was thinking about suicide, do you think it wise to for that person to put their arm around him and say "I understand why you think that way, I would too if I were you"?  That is likely what talking about single causes ends up implying for those thinking suicidal thoughts according to the research as it normalizes suicide

Death by suicide is a result of complex issues.  There may be one thing the individual focuses on, but that does not mean their perception is accurate.  Suicide is rarely discovered when looked at from the outside to be a reasonable response, but rather the individual is demonstrated to be seeing the world in an unrealistic way.  Why then should we assume up front that the individual is being realistic in how they perceive the cause and writes about it?

If a young women wrote a note saying she killed herself because she broke up with her boyfriend, would most people assume that was the primary cause of her death or just what she used to explain her unrealistic action to herself?  Wouldn't you more likely assume there were underlying issues that inflated the importance of her relationship to her?

If we are serious about helping prevent suicides, shouldn't we pay attention to what researchers have actually found, especially those who have included interviews with family and studying all the information available including notes?

Edited April 14, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Suicidal thinking needs to be treated with its own set of rules, not with general emotional health practices.  Think of it as needing to treat cancer in ways that is seen as harmful in other cases.  We would never encourage someone suffering from a broken leg be exposed to radiation, for example.

We need to learn what works rather than assume we should be responding in the same way as to a teen upset about bad grades or not fitting in or not having friends.  And even there it is helpful to remember the full context and not focus on one cause (if the teen complains he just doesn't have the time required to get the homework done, do we ignore how much time is spent on other things?  If they feel they don't fit in because no one likes them, do we ignore how they treat others?)

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, gopher said:

I'm afraid you didn't understand my post at all.  I wasn't mocking family and friends who have struggled with suicide or testimony issues over culture or positions over homosexuality.  I was only calling out those evil people among the protesters who have evil designs in their hearts to inflict further misery on those who struggle. If you wish to defend them, I promise I won't judge you.

I also have a great amount of love for those who struggled.  I guess we'll just have to disagree to agree.

My bad.  I misread your post to be sarcastic.  

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, gopher said:

I'm afraid you didn't understand my post at all.  I wasn't mocking family and friends who have struggled with suicide or testimony issues over culture or positions over homosexuality.  I was only calling out those evil people among the protesters who have evil designs in their hearts to inflict further misery on those who struggle. If you wish to defend them, I promise I won't judge you.

I also have a great amount of love for those who struggled.  I guess we'll just have to disagree to agree.

My bad.  I misread your post to be sarcastic.  

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, gopher said:

I'm afraid you didn't understand my post at all.  I wasn't mocking family and friends who have struggled with suicide or testimony issues over culture or positions over homosexuality.  I was only calling out those evil people among the protesters who have evil designs in their hearts to inflict further misery on those who struggle. If you wish to defend them, I promise I won't judge you.

I also have a great amount of love for those who struggled.  I guess we'll just have to disagree to agree.

Edited April 14, 2019 by MustardSeed
Double post

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, gopher said:

I'm afraid you didn't understand my post at all.  I wasn't mocking family and friends who have struggled with suicide or testimony issues over culture or positions over homosexuality.  I was only calling out those evil people among the protesters who have evil designs in their hearts to inflict further misery on those who struggle. If you wish to defend them, I promise I won't judge you.

I also have a great amount of love for those who struggled.  I guess we'll just have to disagree to agree.

My bad.  I mis read your post in sarcastic font.  So sorry! 

[Calm]

Looking up info on suicide notes and found the report of one study that is comparing how well mental health professionals can predict the difference between actual suicide notes and ones written by healthy people writing what they think a suicide note looks like.  This was to test the effectiveness of computer prediction in order to help clinicians know what patients can be sent home and who to hospitalize as in danger, but it can be used to show how mental health professionals aren't able to pick out what is most meaningful in terms of prediction in suicide notes....and if professionals can't, I don't think we should expect families to automatically, though knowing more background, family members may understand what is not being said---the context---at times.

Quote

One example was where we had 66 notes that Shneidman had put together; 33 were from actual people who had committed and 33 where he went to a local labor union near UCLA and said if you were going to die, if you were going to commit suicide, what would you write?

And we took those notes and we shuffled them all up, and then we asked about 60 mental health professionals to tell us which ones were real and which ones were simulated. And mental health professionals were good as a flip of a coin, about 50 percent of the time. Now, that's a hard task, don't get me wrong.

Since the machine was 90% accurate, there is a good chance there are meaningful signs in the notes, humans are just missing them.  If so, we may be missing after the fact what notes are actually telling us about causes, etc.  It may not be as obvious as we think.

This was back in 2013, I will have to see if I can track down where they went with it.

https://www.npr.org/2013/05/15/184232472/analyzing-the-language-of-suicide-notes-to-help-save-lives

[gopher]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've read stories of families that have had notes spelling it out that they can't live as a gay in the LDS community. Is that enough for you?

According to my family and friends involved in the protests, the claim is that the Nov 2015 policy was responsible for an increase in suicides of gay LDS teens.  Do you have any evidence that claim is true?

No doubt it is challenging to live as a gay inside the LDS community.  Why make it even more difficult by spreading unfounded claims in an effort to turn them against the church they believe in and love?

[gopher]

13 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My bad.  I mis read your post in sarcastic font.  So sorry! 

All four apologies accepted!!!!

Yes, the board is still flakey sometimes with posting duplicates.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

According to my family and friends involved in the protests, the claim is that the Nov 2015 policy was responsible for an increase in suicides of gay LDS teens.  Do you have any evidence that claim is true?

No doubt it is challenging to live as a gay inside the LDS community.  Why make it even more difficult by spreading unfounded claims in an effort to turn them against the church they believe in and love?

The families have notes and lived with their gay child. I wasn't there nor spoke face to face.

Did you read the article I posted? Toward the end there is a young man that quit believing and left a note that it was because he didn't believe.

If someone leaves a note that they can't not believe in the church and live in the LDS community and took their life over that then it's clear to me that someone could do the same thing over the Nov. 2015 policy that said what it did.

[gopher]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The families have notes and lived with their gay child. I wasn't there nor spoke face to face.

Did you read the article I posted? Toward the end there is a young man that quit believing and left a note that it was because he didn't believe.

If someone leaves a note that they can't not believe in the church and live in the LDS community and took their life over that then it's clear to me that someone could do the same thing over the Nov. 2015 policy that said what it did.

The article was clear that conclusions such as the one you made are incorrect.  And drugs are evil especially when used by teens.

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, gopher said:

The article was clear that conclusions such as the one you made are incorrect.  And drugs are evil especially when used by teens.

Could you be more specific? I will reread the article and see where I failed to understand.

[poptart]

On 4/7/2019 at 11:45 AM, JAHS said:

A small group of "protesters" essentially saying that while they are happy the 2015 policy was rescinded the damage (suicides) has been done and can't be undone.

https://www.facebook.com/KUTV2News/videos/415622179001411/

 

Low energy protest, boooring...

[Stargazer]

On 4/13/2019 at 4:31 PM, Tacenda said:

I've read stories of families that have had notes spelling it out that they can't live as a gay in the LDS community. Is that enough for you?

And there was a recent article that not talking about it is worse than talking about it. I read the whole article, and in it one of the suicides was over not being a full believer in the LDS community and that is why they took their life. Happens more than you probably think. I don't think these particular teens were gay, but I don't know. What I'm pointing out to you is they are saying talking about it is what is important. https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-teenager-killed-himself-six-more-followed-11555061402

 

The problem is very fundamental.  The only way to get around the problem is for the Church to go all out pro-gay.  Same-sex temple marriage, etc.  This isn't going to happen.  So now what?  Are we still going to blame the Church for suicides?  The only suicide among people I have known was a young man who did so over chronic and severe depression.  

And I have to ask if even with society now full on pro gay with marriage and everything, has the gay suicide rate gone down?  I haven't heard that it has, and you'd think that if it were something remarkable people would be talking about it.  Or maybe it is being talked about but I haven't heard the talk.

Something I read HERE indicates that LGBT youth commit or attempt to commit suicide at hugely increased rates over heterosexual youth.  And this is a general condition -- is the LDS slice of the pie so much larger then, that we have to get super-exercised about it?  I don't want anyone to kill themselves, but this blaming of LDS doctrine seems very much misplaced and exaggerated.

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The problem is very fundamental.  The only way to get around the problem is for the Church to go all out pro-gay.  Same-sex temple marriage, etc.  This isn't going to happen.  So now what?  Are we still going to blame the Church for suicides?  The only suicide among people I have known was a young man who did so over chronic and severe depression.  

And I have to ask if even with society now full on pro gay with marriage and everything, has the gay suicide rate gone down?  I haven't heard that it has, and you'd think that if it were something remarkable people would be talking about it.  Or maybe it is being talked about but I haven't heard the talk.

Something I read HERE indicates that LGBT youth commit or attempt to commit suicide at hugely increased rates over heterosexual youth.  And this is a general condition -- is the LDS slice of the pie so much larger then, that we have to get super-exercised about it?  I don't want anyone to kill themselves, but this blaming of LDS doctrine seems very much misplaced and exaggerated.

At the very end of the article it says that there should be open dialogue over the suicides. I know that Calm mentioned that it's not right to say the church is the reason or attribute the policy to the reason the suicides happened. She may have a point, but why not be open about how the policy could have attributed. Many gay LDS are very believing Mormons and having been told that if they act out on their inborn feelings, and having the church kick them out or condemn children over their decision to marry is what could contribute, amongst many other feelings. At most we as a society need to make it as safe for the LGBTQ crowd as possible. Not all but many have a gay member of the family or community somewhere and we know that these are not the horrible people some make them out to be. The church will not be forced to let them marry in the temple, IMO. Freedom of religion and all that. So the policy was all for naught and only hurt and devasted the LDS crowd and their families. And that is why the church changed their mind on this policy/revelation.

[gopher]

On 4/14/2019 at 4:03 PM, Tacenda said:

Could you be more specific? I will reread the article and see where I failed to understand.

No where does it make the claim the church's Nov 15 policy was responsible for the suicides.

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, gopher said:

No where does it make the claim the church's Nov 15 policy was responsible for the suicides.

When did I say it did? I only shared the article to explain the problem in LDS communities. And the notion that it's good to talk about suicide. 

[gopher]

On 4/15/2019 at 5:58 PM, Tacenda said:

When did I say it did? I only shared the article to explain the problem in LDS communities. And the notion that it's good to talk about suicide. 

I thought you shared the article as evidence for your position that the Nov 15 policy was responsible for an increase in gay teen suicides in the church, which is the reason given for the protests and this thread.  My bad.

It may be good to talk more openly about suicide.  I don't think it's good to spread harmful conclusions that aren't supported by the experts who are studying this problem.

[Jean-Luc Picard]

On 4/7/2019 at 12:12 PM, MorningStar said:

What I don't understand is why it was so hurtful to be considered an apostate when you make the conscious decision to marry someone of the same sex vs. giving into temptation? Is it less upsetting to be excommunicated for breaking the law of chastity? I think the real hurt was that people were hoping the church would take a step towards embracing same sex marriage and did the opposite. 

I the policy was a way for LTGB to continue to feel "othered" by the Church and lacking an anchor. I could see this especially true for teens who don't understand the context, or even the doctrine surrounding the policy. It was more of a, "you are not welcome here, and there is something different/wrong about you."

I think the policy was more of a symbol to many than the actual legalish wording of the handbook. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Jean-Luc Picard

[Jean-Luc Picard]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:47 AM, Tacenda said:

At the very end of the article it says that there should be open dialogue over the suicides. I know that Calm mentioned that it's not right to say the church is the reason or attribute the policy to the reason the suicides happened. She may have a point, but why not be open about how the policy could have attributed. Many gay LDS are very believing Mormons and having been told that if they act out on their inborn feelings, and having the church kick them out or condemn children over their decision to marry is what could contribute, amongst many other feelings. At most we as a society need to make it as safe for the LGBTQ crowd as possible. Not all but many have a gay member of the family or community somewhere and we know that these are not the horrible people some make them out to be. The church will not be forced to let them marry in the temple, IMO. Freedom of religion and all that. So the policy was all for naught and only hurt and devasted the LDS crowd and their families. And that is why the church changed their mind on this policy/revelation.

This is fair.

I actually agree with Greg Prince that eventually gay marriage in two generations with be normalized in the Church, especially if biological components are found.

I think they changed it, because Trump won and victories for religious freedom have worked in their favor. They (Church Organization) don't have to have a pseudo doctrine/revelation as presedence, to help them if there was a legal challenge to the Church's way of doing things.

I also think the leaders are very concerned about feelings and recognize it hurt people and caused many to leave The Path. I feel President Nelson is a fairly compassionate person.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Jean-Luc Picard

[juliann]

On 4/13/2019 at 9:31 AM, Tacenda said:

I've read stories of families that have had notes spelling it out that they can't live as a gay in the LDS community. Is that enough for you?

And there was a recent article that not talking about it is worse than talking about it. I read the whole article, and in it one of the suicides was over not being a full believer in the LDS community and that is why they took their life. Happens more than you probably think. I don't think these particular teens were gay, but I don't know. What I'm pointing out to you is they are saying talking about it is what is important. https://www.wsj.com/articles/one-teenager-killed-himself-six-more-followed-11555061402

 

Oh for heaven's sakes. You read stories. Meanwhile, you ignore piles of statistics. There is a difference between glamorizing suicide and talking about it. Maybe you can read some stories about that on your non factual sites. 

Suicide is a serious problem amongst our youth. It deserves more scrutiny than a few stories.

[juliann]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:47 AM, Tacenda said:

At the very end of the article it says that there should be open dialogue over the suicides. I know that Calm mentioned that it's not right to say the church is the reason or attribute the policy to the reason the suicides happened.  

Seriously? You really aren't reading what she said. But feel free to mischaracterize her if it helps your data free narrative.