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Maestrophil

Policy reversal

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3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I'm sorry, I don't believe in a God that is fickle enough to have wanted such a policy in place for three years.

Will those couples that were excommunicated be reinstated?  Will individuals and families that were harmed be reached out to?  If there was a reason for the policy to be in place for three years, I think those who claimed it to be God's will ought help the members understand why.

Otherwise, I am forced to conclude that this was one of Holland's "wrong roads" that the Church had to go down.  The end result might be good but the wrong road was bad.

Since the policy only restricted baptism how would anyone have been excommunicated over it?

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Just now, The Nehor said:

Since the policy only restricted baptism how would anyone have been excommunicated over it?

The policy made gay marriage equivalent to apostasy and required excommunication.

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Just now, rockpond said:

The policy made gay marriage equivalent to apostasy and required excommunication.

You still get excommunicated for it.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You still get excommunicated for it.

It's now considered a "transgression" (not apostasy) and sexual morality in a homosexual relationship is to be treated "in the same way" as those entering a heterosexual relationship.

So no, you don't "still get excommunicated for it".  But you may be called in for church discipline in the "same way" that those in heterosexual relationship may be disciplined for immorality.

Edited by ALarson
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1 minute ago, ALarson said:

It's now considered a "transgression" and sexual morality in a homosexual relationship is to be treated "in the same way" as those entering a heterosexual relationship.

So no, you still don't "get excommunicated for it".  But you may be called into church discipline in the "same way" that those in heterosexual relationship may be disciplined for immorality.

Heterosexual man gets called in for fornication or adultery. He is sorry for his actions, vows to repent and accepts the will of the council as to his fate. Wants to be in good standing with the Church.

vs.

Homosexual man gets called in for engaging in sexual activity with another man regardless of legal marital status. He refuses to repent, does not view his actions as sinful and defied the Church and its position on homosexuality/SSM.

Both are sinful. One will likely have a different outcome.

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2 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

For every parent who had a LGBT child take their live over the past three and a half years where that suicide had any causality from the Church's policy, the Church has with this admitted such was in vain.  Sad.  Sad that we place belief in the myth of a true church and God talking to these men above the lives of their precious kids.  My heart goes out to each of these parents as they wrestle with the unnecessary loss of their child because of a POS policy claimed to have been the mind and will of God. 

Its an important point about the gravity of the weight of responsibility that people in positions of power have.  The impact of these policies and the rhetoric of their statements as leaders has a material impact on real people and lives are impacted.  I wouldn't want that level of responsibility myself, although I'd like to think I could do a better job on this topic for sure.  I hope with time church leaders will be much more wise and accountable about what they do and say.  And I hope that as a culture we have members start to give less allegiance to the authority of leaders.  

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12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I love Mr. Rogers...well put, Tacenda!!! 

Thank you Jeanne! I think Mr. Roger's was a prophet in his own way. And luckily we are (me) waking up to it. The world needs people like this in their lives. Here are a few more, if you don't mind that I gush over him. Have you seen the latest documentary on Mr. Rogers? 

Fred Rogers quotes

“When I say it's you I like, I'm talking about that part of you that knows that life is far more than anything you can ever see or hear or touch. That deep part of you that allows you to stand for those things without which humankind cannot survive. Love that conquers hate, peace that rises triumphant over war, and justice that proves more powerful than greed.” 
― Fred Rogers

“Part of the problem with the word 'disabilities' is that it immediately suggests an inability to see or hear or walk or do other things that many of us take for granted. But what of people who can't feel? Or talk about their feelings? Or manage their feelings in constructive ways? What of people who aren't able to form close and strong relationships? And people who cannot find fulfillment in their lives, or those who have lost hope, who live in disappointment and bitterness and find in life no joy, no love? These, it seems to me, are the real disabilities.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.” 
― Fred Rogers

“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“Anything that’s human is mentionable, and anything that is mentionable can be more manageable. When we can talk about our feelings, they become less overwhelming, less upsetting, and less scary. The people we trust with that important talk can help us know that we are not alone.” 
― Fred Rogers

“Anyone who does anything to help a child in his life is a hero to me. ” 
― Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers)

“If you could only sense how important you are to the lives of those you meet; how important you can be to the people you may never even dream of. There is something of yourself that you leave at every meeting with another person.” 
― Fred Rogers

“We live in a world in which we need to share responsibility. It's easy to say "It's not my child, not my community, not my world, not my problem." Then there are those who see the need and respond. I consider those people my heroes.” 
― Fred Rogers

“In times of stress, the best thing we can do for each other is to listen with our ears and our hearts and to be assured that our questions are just as important as our answers.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“Often when you think you're at the end of something, you're at the beginning of something else.” 
― Fred Rogers

“You rarely have time for everything you want in this life, so you need to make choices. And hopefully your choices can come from a deep sense of who you are.” 
― Fred Rogers

“Mutual caring relationships require kindness and patience, tolerance, optimism, joy in the other's achievements, confidence in oneself, and the ability to give without undue thought of gain.”  Mr. Rogers

“Forgiveness is a strange thing. It can sometimes be easier to forgive our enemies than our friends. It can be hardest of all to forgive people we love. Like all of life's important coping skills, the ability to forgive and the capacity to let go of resentments most likely take root very early in our lives.” 
― Fred Rogers

“The greatest gift you ever give is your honest self.” 
― Fred Rogers

“I hope you're proud of yourself for the times you've said "yes," when all it meant was extra work for you and was seemingly helpful only to someone else.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“Whether we're a preschooler or a young teen, a graduating college senior or a retired person, we human beings all want to know that we're acceptable, that our being alive somehow makes a difference in the lives of others.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“We need to help people to discover the true meaning of love. Love is generally confused with dependence. Those of us who have grown in true love know that we can love only in proportion to our capacity for independence.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“The connections we make in the course of a life--maybe that's what heaven is.” 
― Fred Rogers

“The child is in me still and sometimes not so still.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“It's very dramatic when two people come together to work something out. It's easy to take a gun and annihilate your opposition, but what is really exciting to me is to see people with differing views come together and finally respect each other.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“Who we are in the present includes who we were in the past.” 
― Fred Rogers, Life's Journeys According to Mister Rogers: Things to Remember Along the Way

“The thing I remember best about successful people I've met all through the years is their obvious delight in what they're doing and it seems to have very little to do with worldly success. They just love what they're doing, and they love it in front of others.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“In the external scheme of things, shining moments are as brief as the twinkling of an eye, yet such twinklings are what eternity is made of -- moments when we human beings can say "I love you," "I'm proud of you," "I forgive you," "I'm grateful for you." That's what eternity is made of: invisible imperishable good stuff.” 
― Fred Rogers, The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Things to Remember

“There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind.
The second way is to be kind.
The third way is to be kind.” 
― Fred Rogers

“Love and trust, in the space between what’s said and what’s heard in our life, can make all the difference in the world. ” 
― Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers)

“The kingdom of God is for the broken hearted” 
― Fred Rogers

“Discovering the truth about ourselves is a lifetime’s work, but it’s worth the effort.” 
― Fred Rogers

“When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping." To this day, especially in times of "disaster," I remember my mother's words and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in this world.” 
― Fred Rogers

“Little by little we human beings are confronted with situations that give us more and more clues that we are not perfect. ” 
― Fred Rogers

“Life is for service.” 
― Fred Rogers, Life's Journeys According to Mister Rogers: Things to Remember Along the Way

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You still get excommunicated for it.

Based on the new policy, that is at the discretion of the local leaders (and anecdotal evidence suggests that there are local leaders who will not excommunicate gay married couples).

The 2015 policy called it apostasy and mandated excommunication.

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1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

It is very hard for me to worship a god who is so fickle. A god who declares one statement as absolute truth one moment, then reverses it the next.

In my mind, I have two options - stop worshiping that god because he’s a (insert cuss word here), or accept that these men we call prophets are just doing their best, and may be wrong when they call something revelation.

What would you recommend I do?

Nothing fickle about it. Let go of your pride and go to the Lord and learn from him instead of fighting Him

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Heterosexual man gets called in for fornication or adultery. He is sorry for his actions, vows to repent and accepts the will of the council as to his fate. Wants to be in good standing with the Church.

vs.

Homosexual man gets called in for engaging in sexual activity with another man regardless of legal marital status. He refuses to repent, does not view his actions as sinful and defied the Church and its position on homosexuality/SSM.

Both are sinful. One will likely have a different outcome.

Exept you are not treating them "in the same way" as the new wording specifies.  They would both be called in for fornication or adultery and both could repent of that.

I see that the wording on this may mean that a lot is left up to local leadership.  

The wording also seems to be stating that If a member who is in a SSM is faithful to their spouse, they won't be called in for discipline (same with committing fornication)  just as those in heterosexual relationships.  However if they are treated "in the same way" as members in a heterosexual relationship/marriage who commit adultery (or fornication), they may be called in for discipline.

Maybe more clarification will be coming regarding this sentence:

Quote

Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.

But for now,  I interpret that as meaning fornication and adultery. 

Edited by ALarson
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Just now, ALarson said:

Do members get called in for transgressions?  Are transgression = sins?

I see that the wording on this may mean that a lot is left up to local leadership.  

The wording seems to be stating If a member who is in a SSM is faithful to their spouse, I doubt they will be called in for discipline (same with committing fornication in their relationship prior to marriage).  However if they are treated "in the same way" as members in a heterosexual marriage who commit adultery (or fornication), they will be called in for discipline.

Maybe more clarification will be coming regarding this sentence:

But for now,  I interpret that as meaning fornication and adultery. 

No further clarification is needed. It is straight forward. You have to want a different meaning other than the obvious one to twist its plain meaning and see ambiguity.

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25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You still get excommunicated for it.

Not necessarily. Lots of people get more lenient discipline for sex outside of marriage or adultery.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I just got a news notification on my phone that the church has just announced it is allowing the baptism of children of LGBTQ people. 

What repercussions will this have?  Will there be those who return to the church now?  I wonder if it is a d$%ned if you do d#$ned if you don't proposition.  

Edited to add link:  https://www.ksl.com/article/46524616/church-to-allow-baptisms-blessings-for-children-of-lgbt-parents-updates-handbook-regarding-apostasy

Here's some more information on the subject, which addresses doctrine, policy, change, etc.: https://www.lds.org/church/news/policy-changes-announced-for-members-in-gay-marriages-children-of-lgbt-parents?lang=eng

Edited by CV75
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1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

Nope. My beef is not with the Church or its leadership. I think they implemented the Lord's will and then when everyone got offended, the Lord said, "Enough." Now we will see how pleased folks are with the alternative.

Yup.

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3 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

No further clarification is needed. It is straight forward. You have to want a different meaning other than the obvious one to twist its plain meaning and see ambiguity.

No, obviously it's not clear or straight forward as stated.  Your examples do not follow the instructions of treating couples "in the same way".

I added this to my response above regarding your example:

Quote

 

Except you are not treating them "in the same way" as the new wording specifies.  They would both be called in for fornication or adultery and both could repent of that.

You made a difference between the treatment of the two relationships (when instructions state to treat them "in the same way").  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

No further clarification is needed. It is straight forward. You have to want a different meaning other than the obvious one to twist its plain meaning and see ambiguity.

But here's what will happen...

~34,000 stake presidents and bishops will interpreting the new policy.  Some will interpret it as you have done, others will read it as @ALarson does.

Meanwhile, attitudes of members toward gay marriage will continue to shift and as that happens, I'm confident that more and more gay couples will be welcomed in full fellowship (and will not be disciplined).  And, to me, it seems clear where that will lead - we only need to look at our church's history to see what the future will hold.

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So if we act offended enough about paying tithing maybe we can get it rescinded too.

 

Whose with me?

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So much for the revelation that created the ban just a couple of years ago.

"Wherefore, I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good" (Doctrine and Covenants 56:4).
 

"I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing. Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above. And now, I give unto you further directions..." (Doctrine and Covenants 58:32-34)

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5 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

No further clarification is needed. It is straight forward. You have to want a different meaning other than the obvious one to twist its plain meaning and see ambiguity.

I don't agree. I'm unclear as to exactly what it means as well. Clearly, homosexual marriages no longer mandate excommunication. What is less clear is if a homosexual marriage will be disciplined or if just homosexual fornication and homosexual adultery will be disciplined.

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