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MustardSeed

I need help solidifying my thoughts on sexual consent

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I’m using the speech by Ben Ogles of BYU from Jan 2018 to base an address I need to give to my youth group. https://magazine.byu.edu/article/sexual-assault-metoo-and-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/

In his address he suggests that kissing without consent is assault.  He suggests always asking permission before kissing or before initiating sexually. 

Fine and well. ** Unpopular opinion here:  might it be sending an extreme message to some of my more dramatic teens? The last thing I want is for girls who have been kissed by their peers without being asked to believe they have been sexually assaulted. 

 

 Can I present these ideas in terms of Both/And?  It’s both NOT your fault if someone crosses the line AND it’s your responsibility to learn boundaries and not walk the line? 

I do believe (my unpopular opinion) that some girls like to get sexual attention and will dress for such and act flirty and send very mixed messages with no intent to be sexual.  I don’t like sexually abusive narcs but I feel badly for any mother trying to raise healthy young men and women today.    How do I address this AND the reality of abuse?  I don’t want to do harm. I think this topic is very very complex. 

 

Edited by MustardSeed
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Posted (edited)

Are you talking on the cheek, on the lips with a peck, or longer on the lips (as in requiring to hold on to the girl next to you so contact is maintained or with tongue).  Because .I see the last as likely assault if they have never received permission from the individual.  The other two might not be done for sexual reasons, but as a greeting and might even be expected in some cultures and therefore possibly some families.

There are degrees of assault, such as snipping off someone's hair without permission vs. slapping someone not in self defense.  

I see it as the difference between putting one's arm around someone and ending with one's hand or forearm on the shoulder.  That allows for easy signaling and disengagement.  Still best to ask first, but .I wouldn't assume assault there when it is obvious the person is being given a choice to respond or reject.  

Now if the person puts one's arm around one and pulls them tightly or in other fashion makes it difficult to just shrug off the other arm, forcing prolonged physical contact, that is where borderline stuff moves into assault imo.

Any intentional touching of breast or groin is assualt imo, even if momentary.

It is about intent, imo.  If it feels automatic, like a peck on the cheek in saying hello or brushing the hair out of the eyes, then not assault.  If not asked for, then anything that maintains longer contact can be assault or prelude to assault, imo.  It is about respecting the personal space and property of others.  It might not be sexual to grab the purse of someone and rifle through it without permission for a tissue to blow a nose, but still very wrong.

Edited by Calm

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So the topic here is consent.  And yes, it is very complex.

It really doesn't have much to do with Ogle, as you'll hear that exact same view in many venues (religious or not), it isn't extreme at all.   The legal definition of "assault" varies, and does blend into legal "sexual harassment" for a lot of 'lesser' things.   Let's just acknowledge that move away from lawyer definitions to focus instead on humans.  I apologize that my thoughts are disorganized here, so I'm just going to letter label them.  --

A)  You really need to talk about the whole spectrum, who may simply not realize that X behavior is sexual harassment/assault/whatever term.  

B) When it comes to obvious physical wounds, it's intuitive to us that "if you're hurt, you need to go to the doctor". We see that variety of wounds (example: broken arm, gunshot), and send every one of them to the doctor.   You don't see people comparing wounds and going "well, I only broke my arm, I don't really need to go to the doctor, that guy who go shot should go to the hospital and I'll stay home".  NO!  Such is just stupid.    Yes, the gunshot guy is more dramatically than the broken arm gal, but they are both hurt and both need to go to the doctor.

And yet when it comes to sexual harassment/assault, we metaphorically do that exact thing!  "Oh, we only did X, he didn't do Y, I wasn't really wounded."    NO!  Such is just stupid.  Wounded is wounded.  What is wrong is wrong.  All wounds need treated (dramatic and not), and using ill-founded comparisons to talk ourselves out of acknowledging that is just stupid.  

C)  Stress that perpetrators and victims can be any gender.  The most common perpetrators (especially among teens) is somebody that person is dating or otherwise knows well.  

D)  Consent for anything is EXPRESSLY needed.  The end.  

E) It doesn't matter what she/he was wearing.  It doesn't matter if they flirted.  If doesn't matter that you thought they wanted it.  Unless they explicitly give consent for X, then pursuing X is crossing the line and wrong.  

F) Address what to do if someone crosses that line.

G) Hammer home the fact that nothing is ever the victim's fault.  Hammer that over and over again.

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Posted (edited)

"Sexual harassment? 6-year-old suspended for kiss on hand," AP, Dec 10, 2013, online at https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/10/first-grade-kiss-suspension/3963813/ .

Quote

"Sexual Harassment Case Dropped Against 6-Year-Old Alleged Repeat Offender," HuffPost, Dec 12, 2013, online at https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sexual-harassment-6-year-old-dropped_n_4435382 .

A 6-year-old accused of sexual harassment had charges against him dropped by school officials embarrassed by punishing the first-grader for kissing a girl on the hand, CNN reports.

Hunter Yelton was allowed to return early to his elementary school in Canon City, Colo. and downgraded the accusations against him from sexual harassment to misconduct, CNN said.

Last month, Yelton, who is 6, allegedly stole a peck from a girl he has a crush on during a reading lesson.

The girl’s mother, however, said that school officials had initially made the right move by disciplining Yelton, according to WPTV. Jade Masters-Ownbey said the school did a “great job” by slapping the first grader with a two-day suspension, because he kissed her daughter repeatedly without permission, according to the station.

Because of previous disciplinary problems, including another instance in which he smooched the girl, theLincoln School of Science and Technology imposed the harsher allegation of sexual harassment to his record. The case was a school matter, and the boy was never charged with a crime.

Yelton’s mother cried foul earlier in the week and said that the two youngsters were boyfriend and girlfriend. She denounced the administration for its strict handling of the case.

Negative publicity against the Lincoln School of Science and Technology was swift and overwhelming. The Wall Street Journal published a “Free Hunter Yelton“ opinion piece today.

 

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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Thank you for feedback.  

What are peoples thoughts about the very real thing that happens  - girls trying to turn boys on but having no intention of being sexual.?  I believe this happens a lot.  I am very aware that girls are not responsible for boys thoughts and feelings.  UNPOPULAR OPINON ALERT:  Some girls do try to turn boys on, with no intent.  I am aware that if a girl says no, no means no under all circumstances.   

I wish I could address this eloquently.  

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Thank you for feedback.  

What are peoples thoughts about the very real thing that happens  - girls trying to turn boys on but having no intention of being sexual.?  I believe this happens a lot.  I am very aware that girls are not responsible for boys thoughts and feelings.  UNPOPULAR OPINON ALERT:  Some girls do try to turn boys on, with no intent.  I am aware that if a girl says no, no means no under all circumstances.   

I wish I could address this eloquently.  

Boys: you are responsible for your own thoughts/actions.  If there's a girl half naked dancing on a stripper pole intentionally provocative, you are still responsible for your own thoughts/actions.  Hence at points you'll need to really excesses self control / move away from temptation.    (All of this applies to girls too).

Everyone does need to be taught that their actions do affect others (in many ways) and makes it harder for them to have self control.  But that is a separate conversation and does not belong in the consent conversation.  

A very common error of mixing these two VERY different conversations: you create the false picture "well, she dressed slutty, she must have wanted sexual attention, and it was ok that I just gave it to her cause she didn't say 'no' and her outfit said 'yes'  ".  Or "well, it's my fault he came after me because of how I was dressed."     Hence why you keep the conversations COMPLETELY separate.  Consent in the consent conversation.  Taking self-care and sending the message you intend to gets it's own conversation.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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I agree with @Jane_Doe that the issue is not whether or not something meets the definition of assault, and also not only the issue of consent, although those are two essential pieces of the puzzle; but the entire culture that gives rise to the dishonor of body and agency, as it relates to all of us, and as it relates to women; although there may be other important foci other than women i.e. how it relates to men, how it relates to kids, how it relates to brown bodies, etc.; but nevertheless, as women, we do have to come out of history on this (in order to bless not only ourselves but our men, daughters, and sons also): the full agency and the full honor of our body.

Affirmative consent is the practical standard at this time.  It means that an explicit 'yes' for an intimate experience; not merely the absence of any 'no'.  ("She didn't say no!"  is not okay; "Did she actually say yes, out loud?" is necessary.)

I read an article today or yesterday about how some high school girls found a list that their male peers had created that numerically ranked the attractiveness of the girls.  That is neither an issue of assault nor of consent.  But at least two things in the article struck me--one, a girl had struggled much of her young life with an eating disorder, and was doing a lot of healing, and the last thing she needed was to have to deal with how high or low she was on the list and to think of her body as anything other than healthy.  She refused to look at the list, preferring to nurture her own opinion of herself; still, it went viral and she couldn't escape it.  It could be said to not worry what others think of you, but still it is a blow.  Secondly, one girl expressed that she felt betrayed because the young men were her erstwhile friends, and now she can't trust to even have a conversation with them, because all she will be wondering is if they are calculating her rank while they are with her.

So again--here is an instance of something that was neither assault nor consent per se, and yet, it is just another artifact of a (women's) body culture gone very wrong.

I'm not saying 'boys are like this'.  I think they aren't.  I think it's what we are taught and what we allow i.e. the culture.  The boys, I'm sure, meant no harm, and also considered the girls their friends.  In the 70s, maybe, it would have been a little game. They just didn't understand, and maybe the girls didn't before now, too i.e. we didn't even know we could ask.  But in the climate now, we are beyond asking, we're saying, it's enough, that's over. Now, in this time and age, we have to wake up to even what we might have called right or okay before, harbored a deep filter or paradigm that is keeping us all, men and women, in chains and barring our, again, full agency, full honor, and fully intimacy with one another.

 

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Some girls do try to turn boys on, with no intent.

 

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

some girls like to get sexual attention and will dress for such and act flirty and send very mixed messages with no intent to be sexual

Can you elaborate here?  Do you actually see this, do you have at least one personal anecdote?  What does it actually look like to you i.e. what does "dress for such" mean?  What behavior happens during "flirty"?  What does "turn on" mean to you, especially I am assuming in the context of LDS young women and young men?  I don't understand "try to turn on" but "no intent" . . . and "get sexual attention" but "no intent to be sexual" . . . .it's either one or the other, isn't it?  I'm not saying against you, but maybe it would help you too to be more exact in describing what you've actually seen and experienced, instead of a vague theoretical.

Because in terms of LDS young women, I'm having a hard time thinking "dress for such" could possibly be, again, not just trying to be against your experience, but an honest question.  I mean, are they wearing hot red fishnet tights and cone bras?  Also I am thinking that "wanting attention from a boy" is not the same thing at all as "wanting sexual attention".

Anyway, just some thoughts that came to me as you did your best to express your thoughts, which I appreciate.

I like the "cup of tea" consent videos on YouTube, if you haven't seen those, check them out. 

I also think about a brand new car--just because some parks a Lamborghini in front of you doesn't mean you drive off with it just because it's an awesome car and you want it.  It doesn't belong to you, period.  Even if a woman dresses in a way to enhance their beauty and attractiveness--which I think is a perfectly reasonable way to dress, what are we going to dress ugly?--and enters your field (men), if she doesn't belong to you, she doesn't belong to you.

I also want to point out that I have never, ever, even once for one second in my entire life dressed for a man.  But I love wearing shorts, tank tops, I like wearing summer dresses, I like having parts of my body such as back, shoulders, and belly, out free in the air and sun.  I don't get much chance for it (as normally I am wearing garments), but I feel comfortable that way, with as little clothing as possible.  I am not dressing this way to show, but to feel.  I wear clothes because of comfort and artistry i.e. what I think looks cute to me, not to a man.  Personally, male attention terrifies me.  I don't want any.  So I hate that freedom in my God-given body has been appropriated by a code regarding sexual signals between man and woman, which is learned and not biological (the clothing codes, I mean) and by now in our society is so mixed of signal.  I live in a time when I have to cover up my body as much as possible and I hate it and I don't get it.

Attraction is natural (man-man, man-woman, woman-woman).  Others' bodies ought to inspire a pleasant sensation of attractiveness.  This is a gift from God.  A sensation of attraction ought not to send anyone into a tailspin or a frame of sin and temptation, and I hope that is what we teach our young people.  But appreciating fine art (Mona Lisa) is different than taking it out of the exhibit and walking off with it if it doesn't belong to you.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What is the solution in your eyes, then, Robert? :)

Or any personal experiences where in the workplace, your way of interacting with women was unreasonably misunderstood?  Not saying you would have done anything like that at all, which is why I'm asking, because I can't imagine you in a situation like that either way.

Edited by Maidservant

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Maidservant said:

What is the solution in your eyes, then, Robert? :)

I think everyone needs a reality check, and one can find it best with Camille Paglia, Tim Pool, Jordan Peterson, and some others who do not mince words or speak in politically correct overtones.  Being kind and respectful is often not enough, however, which means that one may have to resort to recording devices along with video surveillance of one's own home or apt in order to be able to show later that no  untoward moves were made.  Either that or keep everyone well outside personal space boundaries and communicate only via email -- which is what people seem to be doing now, and the birthrate (at least outside the LDS community) is moving into record lows here and in Japan.  People are no longer getting together the way the Youngbloods used to sing:

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now.

Quote

Or any personal experiences where in the workplace, your way of interacting with women was unreasonably misunderstood?  Not saying you would have done anything like that at all, which is why I'm asking, because I can't imagine you in a situation like that either way.

I can't imagine it either.  I've always been far too straitlaced and standoffish -- a veritable "wet blanket."

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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Posted (edited)

A subject in an area I have become extremely skittish about responding to.  

Oh, well.

I don't really recall all that much about long past dating relationships -- and as far as that goes I was never a "big dater".  I can count with no more than the fingers on both hands the number of women I have ever "dated".  In about half of these cases were there any instances of romantic kissing.  And in no case ever was there ever any asking for consent.  "May I kiss you?" is an expression that has never passed my lips.  But in every single occasion where kissing occurred, it was obvious that there was mutual consent.  In the last case, my current wife, we emailed quite a bit before actually meeting and I guess we had a mutual understanding that we would kiss upon first meeting -- but still, "May I kiss you" was never uttered by either of us.

But maybe we should make it into a law.  Or maybe not.

And by the way, people in the #MeToo movement have gone into FreakoutMode over this clip:

 

Edited by Stargazer
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m using the speech by Ben Ogles of BYU from Jan 2018 to base an address I need to give to my youth group. https://magazine.byu.edu/article/sexual-assault-metoo-and-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/

In his address he suggests that kissing without consent is assault.  He suggests always asking permission before kissing or before initiating sexually. 

Fine and well. ** Unpopular opinion here:  might it be sending an extreme message to some of my more dramatic teens? The last thing I want is for girls who have been kissed by their peers without being asked to believe they have been sexually assaulted. 

 

 Can I present these ideas in terms of Both/And?  It’s both NOT your fault if someone crosses the line AND it’s your responsibility to learn boundaries and not walk the line? 

I do believe (my unpopular opinion) that some girls like to get sexual attention and will dress for such and act flirty and send very mixed messages with no intent to be sexual.  I don’t like sexually abusive narcs but I feel badly for any mother trying to raise healthy young men and women today.    How do I address this AND the reality of abuse?  I don’t want to do harm. I think this topic is very very complex. 

 

I read the talk and he is coming from a thorough background on this topic. In this day and age, requesting permission to kiss someone is good advice. I mean, Joe Biden, is getting terrible press for being too handsy. It is important to respect the personal space of others. I even have daughters who do not appreciate being touched even casually by men in the ward. The shoulder grab is one that made them uncomfortable and this man was in no way trying to be inappropriate.

I think it is fair to say that teaching consent to young men and woman is very important and you may be “saving” these young men from accusations in their future. 

When it comes to sexual assault and abuse, it is clear the problem is far reaching and standards of conduct should change. I like this passage

”Accordingly, I wish that all people knew how to ask first. Instead of guessing or assuming, we can rely on direct information. For example, one possibility is to ask first, and if consent is given, then you kiss. It might go something like this: “I like you. I really enjoy being with you and getting to know you. Would it be alright if I kissed you?” Then you wait to hear the response before acting.

This is very different from the movie scene in which the good-looking and charming hero grabs the leading lady in spite of her physical resistance and kisses her forcefully. Typically, this fictional scene then portrays her melting in the heat of the moment and eventually returning the affection. You are bombarded with these types of unrealistic scenarios in many formats. Learn to discern between reality and fantasy. These are fake scenarios that romanticize assault. In real life the most respectful approach is to honor the personal space and physical autonomy of others and kiss or touch only when you are sure you have consent. Remember, sexual contact without consent is assault.

People are often skeptical of the idea of seeking consent. They worry that asking for permission might “ruin the moment” or feel awkward. It would be convenient if consent for every attempt at physical expression of affection was intuitively known by both parties. The problem is that not every kiss is wanted. But wouldn’t it ruin the moment if a person does not read nonverbal signals well or simply believes that the other person is interested when in reality the other is not? The pain of being physically violated is much worse than a brief, potentially awkward moment when someone expresses a desire to be more physically intimate. Besides, I believe it is possible to find creative, fun, and romantic ways to ask for permission that may even improve the moment.”

Edited by bsjkki
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I appreciate everyone’s point of view here.  I identify with ALL of it. 

Interesting enough. I woke up this morning quietly thinking about all of this and what came to mind was the word POWER.  Women have power, men have power, superiors have power, adults have power over kids.  It is wise to be aware of each of those powers and it’s implication.  

Bluebell you mentioned power above, and that jumped out at me in light of my thoughts. 

Our activity this week is for beehives, miamaids and laurels and is called EveryBody is Fabulous. Leaders are each covering one topic: hygene, menstruation, health, body acceptance, modesty and I will follow up with whatever time is left to address the law of chastity.  I wanted to go very real with stuff but we have some VERY young 11 year olds so I am adjusting. I WAS  going to cover consent and address personal responsibility but my thoughts are still formulating. I wish to do no harm.  I think I’ll focus on the topic of Power. 

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts thus far!  Thank you 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 I wanted to go very real with stuff but we have some VERY young 11 year olds so I am adjusting. I WAS  going to cover consent and address personal responsibility but my thoughts are still formulating. I wish to do no harm.  I think I’ll focus on the topic of Power. 

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts thus far!  Thank you 

Remember: those very young 11 year olds undoubtedly  have likely have peers in their class that are dating, watching porn, talking about sex, and probably a few that are actively having sex.  The world nowadays is hyper-sexualized and kids need to be educated about what's right/the Lord's way and what's not.  They need education to arm themselves.  

Another thought: sending out an email to the parens with "hey, this is the topic for X, just wanted to let you know.  You (the parents) are welcome to attend and we would encourage you to talk about this stuff with your kids because it is very important".  

I do like the power angle very much.  

 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Remember: those very young 11 year olds undoubtedly  have likely have peers in their class that are dating, watching porn, talking about sex, and probably a few that are actively having sex.  The world nowadays is hyper-sexualized and kids need to be educated about what's right/the Lord's way and what's not.  They need education to arm themselves.  

Another thought: sending out an email to the parens with "hey, this is the topic for X, just wanted to let you know.  You (the parents) are welcome to attend and we would encourage you to talk about this stuff with your kids because it is very important".  

I do like the power angle very much.  

 

Absolutely!   Yes to all. Our plan is to have 3 separate classes to go deeper , later.  

It’s such a spread of ages, mature 18 year olds and very immature 11 year olds.  We are talking girls who are graduating vs 5th graders... :0

Edited by MustardSeed
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I concur that there are very advanced 11year olds. You’ve got innocent babies and experienced operators across all of these age groups.

I would not discuss dress standards. 

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40 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

 

I do like the power angle very much.  

 

That's a great angle to bring up, actually.

 

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5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I concur that there are very advanced 11year olds. You’ve got innocent babies and experienced operators across all of these age groups.

I would not discuss dress standards. 

Indeed.  I suggested we not discuss dress standards.  President requested that she address modesty, so it’s up to her.  I’m assuming strength of youth booklet is being updated and rolled out soon...

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Posted (edited)

Girls can violate consent too.   So don't make that a boy/girl distinction.   Make sure the boys know they are entitled and should say NO too.   That being a man really means never taking advantage of others, no matter how eager they may appear to engage in that situation.   (Many don't understand that the law of chastity requires not even kissing someone not your spouse , if kissing arouses yours or your partner's sexual feelings.)  

Another thing I remind my boys is that the girls who might be willing to do those things with them are likely to have mental health or emotional health issues that make it hard for them to give informed consent at all.   Most are trading sex for affection. 

And for heaven's sake, make sure every boy hears that they are entirely responsible for themselves, that no girl is responsible for his feelings related to the clothes she wears or not.   That girls are NOT AT ALL responsible for not tempting boys.    (Tip, if boys make sure they are always looking at the person's face, what they are wearing can be less of an issue anyway.

And please tell them that despite what they may hear at school or in the magazines, EVERYONE IS NOT DOING IT.   That those who have/want a life intentionally choose not to have sex until they've graduated from high school,  and gotten married. 

Edited by rpn
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3 hours ago, rpn said:

Girls can violate consent too.   So don't make that a boy/girl distinction.   Make sure the boys know they are entitled and should say NO too.   That being a man really means never taking advantage of others, no matter how eager they may appear to engage in that situation.   (Many don't understand that the law of chastity requires not even kissing someone not your spouse , if kissing arouses yours or your partner's sexual feelings.)  

Another thing I remind my boys is that the girls who might be willing to do those things with them are likely to have mental health or emotional health issues that make it hard for them to give informed consent at all.   Most are trading sex for affection. 

And for heaven's sake, make sure every boy hears that they are entirely responsible for themselves, that no girl is responsible for his feelings related to the clothes she wears or not.   That girls are NOT AT ALL responsible for not tempting boys.    (Tip, if boys make sure they are always looking at the person's face, what they are wearing can be less of an issue anyway.

And please tell them that despite what they may hear at school or in the magazines, EVERYONE IS NOT DOING IT.   That those who have/want a life intentionally choose not to have sex until they've graduated from high school,  and gotten married. 

Lots of good stuff here.  Though I'm not sure I agree actually that someone is breaking the law of chastity of they are un married and kissing and feeling sexual feelings.  

 

You know what, the more I discuss this topic with friends, kids, etc the more difficult this conversation becomes.  I almost don't want to touch this one with a ten foot pole.  I'm about ready to cancel the conversation and play hang man Wednesday night instead.  😕

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, rpn said:

That girls are NOT AT ALL responsible for not tempting boys.

Is this true?

I totally understand that children are NOT AT ALL responsible for tempting adults and that power differentials eliminate consent.  
 

But to be completely transparent, when I was young I worked pretty dang hard to tempt boys....to lure them.  I was really stupid and immature in many ways.  I'm embarrassed by my behavior now.   I won't even share details of what I would do but I know for sure that I thought the way to get a boy was to be as sexy as possible.  I say that but all things are relative, and I'm sure in the real world I was pretty darned tame.  But that's where my head was.  Was I not at all responsible for my actions and the outcome?

Please know I'm not trying to argue.  I really would like to be clear minded and be able to help young men and young women navigate their lives and in the process not screw people up.

Edited by MustardSeed
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Posted (edited)

Here’s my opinion, all just opinion.

i think women have had and or exercised less power since the beginning.  I think women have at least subconsciously understood that their sexuality is one area where they are powerful.  

I think in recent decades women have come to understand that they can exercise power in ways other than their sexuality.  Not all women have learned this, though. 

I also think that men have a hard time understanding women because women are all on different levels of self awareness and understanding of their power. 

When I was younger I tapped into my sexuality as a way to have power and influence. * I did not know I was doing so. *

At around age 35 I started to develop some personality, talents and abilities and self confidence that afforded me quite a bit of power and influence.  Today, I am as confident as I ever was...without turning to tactics I once used. 

I am sure I still rely on ( though intellectually I tell myself I shouldn’t need them) social sexual things to help me feel confident. 

Incidentally I notice more and more that young men are emphasizing their sex appeal, Its interesting to me (opinion) that the gay community emphasizes appearance and sexuality more so than the hereto male community. (Anecdotal). 

At any rate, my thoughts start to refine and then someone sends me an article or new ideas that put me at square one.  I have two days to get ready for what’s gearing up to be a loaded conversation-

Edited by MustardSeed

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