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10THAmendment

I'm beginning to have a tithing problem, only not in the traditional sense

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations

The church needs to be open with it's records. According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. The church is the wealthiest church, with less membership. It asks a lot of it's members, in monies. And I know they do bring wealth from the corporate side. But wasn't there an early prophet that once said that when the church had more than enough tithing it would no longer be required? Wish I had the quote. 

Here is an article in the Trib that is interesting, and I have worked at some of these schools that are collecting money for Kenya, and not asking for Kenya to pay them. 

a31V16FbHhJmHdmA1Qwq4H-dWQtRgbzg3r0vvvUDxNk.png?auto=webp&s=7e9531b9937229e8466822cb04d7fa25a22d0eb1

 

What of the great beauties of this world is never having to waste time on things; we can choose who we socialize with and hang with for fun. This sour, small-brained fellow is the type of human I an assure others I never have as a friend. I detest whiners and this poor chap is desperate to be a whiner. If not this topic, he will find a 1003 other topics to whine about.

It was raining today, weather is fresh, and grandkids are wonderful. Even better, my wife is loving life and we are both grateful and proud she has made life better for all of us.

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Posted (edited)
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According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. 

 

I don’t see how this can possibly be true, but I guess no one knows. If the church has 8 million tithe paying members (gross over estimate) about half would be in their income earning years (assuming similar demographics to Utah). So four million adult tithe payers. 30 billion would require each person to donate 7500 dollars. For a married couple this comes to 15,000 or an average income of $150,000. Considering that half of the church is outside the United States, this seems insanely high. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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Tithing is one of the few things we know we can be perfect in when we give 10%.  I don't care how the Church uses my money.  All I am asked is to do my part and I am in the clear.  God holds those who misuse the money not me.   If one is not paying because others actions, then those actions of others are leading to your damnation as well.  No reason to shoot yourself in the foot eternally to make a point for a brief moment.

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 5:41 PM, 10THAmendment said:

One of my main concerns is the secrecy of the church's finances. The church completely shut the door on transparency right around the time they started operating businesses and got heavily involved in the stock market. That is very suspicious. 

The way tithing and finances are handled in this church just doesn't ring true or right to me. Stockpiling cash and building malls just doesn't seem right for any church, let alone the church that claims it is the only true church.

Wait - what's wrong with putting money in savings for a rainy day? And by rainy day, I mean for major disasters. 

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations

The church needs to be open with it's records. According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. The church is the wealthiest church, with less membership. It asks a lot of it's members, in monies. And I know they do bring wealth from the corporate side. But wasn't there an early prophet that once said that when the church had more than enough tithing it would no longer be required? Wish I had the quote. 

Here is an article in the Trib that is interesting, and I have worked at some of these schools that are collecting money for Kenya, and not asking for Kenya to pay them. 

a31V16FbHhJmHdmA1Qwq4H-dWQtRgbzg3r0vvvUDxNk.png?auto=webp&s=7e9531b9937229e8466822cb04d7fa25a22d0eb1

 

A rich man opens the paper one day, he sees the world is full of misery.
He says, “I have money, I can help.” So he gives away all of his money.
But it’s not enough. The people are still suffering.
One day the man sees another article, he decides he was foolish to think just giving money was enough.
So he goes to the doctor and says, “Doctor, i want to donate a kidney.”
The doctors do the surgery, it’s a complete success.
After, he knows he should feel good, but he doesn’t, for people are still suffering. So he goes back to the doctor.
He says, “Doctor, this time I want to give it all.”
The doctor says, “What does that mean, give it all?”
He says, “This time I want to donate my liver, but not just my liver. I want to donate my heart, but not just my heart. I want to donate my corneas, but not just my corneas. I want to give it all away. Everything I am, all that I have.”
The doctor says, “A kidney is one thing but you can’t give away your whole body piece by piece, that’s suicide.” And he sends the man home.
But the man cannot live knowing that people are suffering and he could help. So he gives the one thing he has left, his life

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7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don’t see how this can possibly be true, but I guess no one knows. If the church has 8 million tithe paying members (gross over estimate) about half would be in their income earning years (assuming similar demographics to Utah). So four million adult tithe payers. 30 billion would require each person to donate 7500 dollars. For a married couple this comes to 15,000 or an average income of $150,000. Considering that half of the church is outside the United States, this seems insanely high. 

Here is an article about it, who knows? 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/10/14/historian-digs-into-the-hidden-world-of-mormon-finances-shows-how-church-went-from-losing-money-to-making-money-lots-of-it/

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:58 AM, 10THAmendment said:

Hey all,

Recently I have really started to struggle with the issue of tithing. Not as a fundamental principle of the Gospel, but as an administrative policy. The more skeptical I have become of the church and its leaders, the more I really don't want to give money to it or them. It has actually started to make me sick and have a really bad feeling each month. I would much rather donate 10% of my income to organizations that actually help people. 

The church is very disproportionate to other churches in how much of their resources they use for humanitarian aid. I don't like that the church is secret with their finances. I don't like that they build shopping malls. I don't like that they bring in tens of billions of dollars each year and only use $40 million or so for humanitarian aid. I don't like that the church lobbies governments to make policies that I vehemently disagree with. It feels more like I am donating to a political organization that goes against every core principle I believe in politically.

 

Thoughts?

100 percent don't give tithing to the Church.  If you feel that your funds should be used exclusively for maintaining properties of worship and also for those in need then you don't need to donate until your criteria is met.  Tithing is a voluntary program.  I know many that stopped giving tithing after City Creek Mall but continued pouring money into fast offerings.  Then the policy changed (fine print) on fast offerings and they stopped giving any sort of funds.

 

 

 

 

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On 5/12/2019 at 11:38 AM, Storm Rider said:

What of the great beauties of this world is never having to waste time on things; we can choose who we socialize with and hang with for fun. This sour, small-brained fellow is the type of human I an assure others I never have as a friend. I detest whiners and this poor chap is desperate to be a whiner. If not this topic, he will find a 1003 other topics to whine about.

It was raining today, weather is fresh, and grandkids are wonderful. Even better, my wife is loving life and we are both grateful and proud she has made life better for all of us.

I agree with the editorial.  I am very thankful that we're receiving more insight into the Church's business dealings.  Many of us misperceived that the majority of our funds were going to those in need.  We volunteered cleaning chapels, temples, second and third jobs to build chapels, meanwhile the Church had an immense nest egg for business dealings.  One day the Church may decide to be transparent about funds.  I am not sure why we hide anyways.

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On 3/23/2019 at 12:00 PM, bluebell said:

I don't mean that money not given to a church can't be acceptable to Him, I mean that money not given to God is not tithing.  People (atheists, agnostics, satanists, protestants, catholics, etc.) give money to charity or other good programs every day.  Millions of dollars.  Those people are not paying tithing.  They are giving charity but charity and tithing are not the same thing.

Tithing is money that we owe God, that God or His representatives get to decide what to do with it.  When we decide what to do with the money, we aren't paying tithing.  That doesn't mean God isn't glad or that we aren't blessed for it, it's just not going to be the same blessings that come from paying tithing.  

Owing God money and owing a church money in the name of God are in no way synonymous. 

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11 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Owing God money and owing a church money in the name of God are in no way synonymous. 

Unless you believe that God has commanded that you pay the money you owe Him to that church.  

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Unless you believe that God has commanded that you pay the money you owe Him to that church.  

Fair enough. However,  there must always be the clear distinction that no church is in any way synonymous with God. A church is merely a vessel. God remains God and stands beyond the church.

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On 5/14/2019 at 1:31 PM, lostindc said:

Tithing is a voluntary program.

In the same manner that salvation and exaltation are voluntary programs as well.  We always have a choice whether to follow that Savior or not.

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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

In the same manner that salvation and exaltation are voluntary programs as well.  We always have a choice whether to follow that Savior or not.

How do you feel about the claim that it is "fire insurance". My MIL used this on occassion. Does it connotate that we'll be burned if we don't pay?  https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

 

Worthwhile Fire Insurance

Now, second, the payment of tithing is worthwhile as fire insurance. Through his prophets the Lord has told us that incident to his second coming, which we are now anticipating, there will be a great conflagration. Malachi thus refers to it in connection with his pronouncement about tithes and offerings. He said:

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

“But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.” (Mal. 4:1–2.)

Edited by Tacenda

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

How do you feel about the claim that it is "fire insurance". My MIL used this on occassion. Does it connotate that we'll be burned if we don't pay?  https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/1982/01/the-blessings-of-an-honest-tithe?lang=eng

 

Worthwhile Fire Insurance

Now, second, the payment of tithing is worthwhile as fire insurance. Through his prophets the Lord has told us that incident to his second coming, which we are now anticipating, there will be a great conflagration. Malachi thus refers to it in connection with his pronouncement about tithes and offerings. He said:

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

“But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.” (Mal. 4:1–2.)

I can understand why the image of fire insurance may be used in light of the scripture in Malachi, it's not how I would speak about it, but I can understand why others may. 

Those who have not paid an honest tithe, after accepting the law, will be burned when that "day cometh."  Whether that is a literal or symbolic burning is up to you to determine.  Personally, I believe it to be symbolic. 

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https://www.cbclaw.com/Newsletters/Utahs-Love-Affair-With-The-Bankruptcy-Court-Utah-Ranks-in-the-Top-5-Bankruptcy-Filing-States-Per-Capita-April-2018.shtml?fbclid=IwAR26I1y8_tS9R4zjFjp8WpDwXxtjG83Ba3gA0VjLupPbkdkGFEd1ADn2XJA

"Why do Utahns Love Filing?

There are many reasons for this, but much of it has to do with larger families, lower wages and fewer benefits than other states. Another significant factor is the amount of charitable contributions and volunteering. Two final factors are the need to "keep up with the Joneses," with a little bit of financial illiteracy mixed in. Utah has the lowest median age of any state in the nation, nearly seven years younger than the national average. The number of children per household is also greater than the national average with nearly an additional mouth to feed per each Utah household. Utah's per capita income is the 46th lowest in the nation with a median income for a household of three ranking 25th in the nation. Both surprising and not surprising is the fact that Utah ranks #1 among all 50 states in volunteering and charitable giving with an average of just over 10% of total income. (Where have we heard that before?) When one considers all of these statistics, it is understandable why Utahns are less likely to weather a financial setback and more likely to file bankruptcy."

Me: I brought this up to Robert in another thread and just saw this statistic and thought the two could go together. I asked Robert what he thought about the church taking out wording in a leader's quote concerning tithing in the church, he hasn't responded. I felt it should have been left alone and feel that if a family doesn't have means to pay tithing before bills, they should just pay the bills, then hopefully they wouldn't have to file bankruptcy. The quote by Lorenzo Snow:

o73d3pat6g101.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

...

o73d3pat6g101.jpg

 

I don't know that it's worth it to make much ado about the alteration of the quotation of President Lorenzo Snow from the original to how it appears in the Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow manual, since the Welfare Program of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as we know it didn't exist in President Snow's day, but it does exist now.  If you don't have sufficient means to meet your needs but you pay your tithing anyway, Church of Jesus Christ Welfare can and will make up the difference.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.cbclaw.com/Newsletters/Utahs-Love-Affair-With-The-Bankruptcy-Court-Utah-Ranks-in-the-Top-5-Bankruptcy-Filing-States-Per-Capita-April-2018.shtml?fbclid=IwAR26I1y8_tS9R4zjFjp8WpDwXxtjG83Ba3gA0VjLupPbkdkGFEd1ADn2XJA

"Why do Utahns Love Filing?

There are many reasons for this, but much of it has to do with larger families, lower wages and fewer benefits than other states. Another significant factor is the amount of charitable contributions and volunteering. Two final factors are the need to "keep up with the Joneses," with a little bit of financial illiteracy mixed in. Utah has the lowest median age of any state in the nation, nearly seven years younger than the national average. The number of children per household is also greater than the national average with nearly an additional mouth to feed per each Utah household. Utah's per capita income is the 46th lowest in the nation with a median income for a household of three ranking 25th in the nation. Both surprising and not surprising is the fact that Utah ranks #1 among all 50 states in volunteering and charitable giving with an average of just over 10% of total income. (Where have we heard that before?) When one considers all of these statistics, it is understandable why Utahns are less likely to weather a financial setback and more likely to file bankruptcy."

Me: I brought this up to Robert in another thread and just saw this statistic and thought the two could go together. I asked Robert what he thought about the church taking out wording in a leader's quote concerning tithing in the church, he hasn't responded. I felt it should have been left alone and feel that if a family doesn't have means to pay tithing before bills, they should just pay the bills, then hopefully they wouldn't have to file bankruptcy. The quote by Lorenzo Snow:

o73d3pat6g101.jpg

 

You are relying on a bankruptcy law firms advertisement to reach your conclusions about bankruptcy statistics in Utah.

Try and use statistics more responsibly next time. 

 

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Just to add a little more context to Tacenda's Drive by statistics, you can find actual, real bankruptcy statics at this website.   

https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-statistics

if you download the spreadsheet, you will see that over the years, Utah has been as high as 4th place and currently is 10th place.  

 

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I recall a story from the bible. Jesus was with Mary, who was anointing his feet with some very expensive oil. Judas asked if it would have been better to sell the oil in order to provide for the poor. Jesus said there will always be poverty, but he would not always be with them.

We are tithed to give to Christ's church. We are not tithed to give to the poor. And these two things are not mutually exclusive. A person can both pay tithing and give money to charitable organizations.

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43 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This. People who pontificate on this topic always seem to pass right over this. We had a family in our ward a few years ago when I was serving in the bishopric. She lost her job, and they could no longer afford to pay tithing and make their home loan repayments. Since we know the blessings of tithing, this is easy. I encouraged them to tithe, and the ward contributed what was needed to meet their loan obligations until their situation improved. It's just that simple.

No, let's do. If one consults the 19th-century Dictionary of American English, one will find the definition of the word means current at the time that Pres Snow spoke these words: 'income, revenue'. And if one consults the Cambridge English Dictionary, mindful of the fact that Pres Snow had a good education and may have spoken a more British English, one will find that the British definition was quite similar: 'money, for example from an income'.

So what did Pres Snow say to the Saints in 1899? That every man, woman and child with an income should tithe. Now, what does an honest person do with a historical quote when the meaning of a word has shifted enough that the original intention might be misconstrued? One option would be to insert '[an income]' in place of 'means'. But of course, that would still result in people falsely accusing the Church of quote fiddling. One could also leave the quote intact but add an explanation in a footnote. In a piece of academic writing, that would be preferred. Or one could do exactly what the Church has done in this case.

But to pretend that the Church has altered this quote in order to obscure a doctrinal shift is historically inaccurate, misleading, and, quite possibly, dishonest.

Well, good to know I guess. You do bring up something true, that the church doesn't expect someone with no income to pay, but still they shouldn't delete the words, IMO. Just let it go and if someone asks, explain. 

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On 3/28/2019 at 2:47 PM, CA Steve said:

I love this board. I learn something everyday.

Today I have learned that I do not understand the Bible because I have a job and my stake president is not fat.

 

Who knew?

 

 

I knew something was off about my Stake President. That explains it. 

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On 4/8/2019 at 2:36 PM, Vedrfolnyr said:

I have never had a problem paying tithing. Until I my bro-in-law who works for church security began bragging about the new security training facility that the church is building complete with 12 rifle and 12 handgun ranges and "force-on-force" training areas. For some reason this absolutely infuriated me. I am not allowed to carry a firearm into church to protect my family but the leaders security gets a state-of-the-art training facility? My daughter would love to take gymnastics but our finances didn't allow it. Until last week when I felt that my daughters happiness means more to me than an LDS firearms academy.

I'm actually relieved that the church is doing such training.  Thanks for mentioning it!

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